Hero ball = top lottery pick

[Draco]

I stated up front that I don't care about the loss. They lost because of poor defense.

My points are these:
1) I don't like watching teams where two players dominate the ball and the number of shots--even if they are contenders
2) I don't think Dame and CJ jacking up 20+ attempts each develops other players
3) I don't think Dame and CJ jacking up 20+ shots will lead to many wins
4) I don't think Dame and CJ jacking up 20+ shots will keep the fresh by the end of the game when we likely need them most
5) I don't think Dame and CJ jacking up 20+ shots will enable other players to get into the flow of the game

Curry and Klay both averaged 17 shots/game last season. That left room for three other players to get 8+ shots and a whole bunch to get 5+. Last night only one non-pg got more than 6 attempts.

Right now Dame and CJ are not as good as Curry and Klay, so I don't expect to see them exceed those numbers generally. FWIW, Curry then bumped up to 21 shots in the playoffs, which I would expect Dame (and only Dame) to do also.

Your comparing a high from Dame and CJ with an average of the GS players. Curry and Klay have games they shoot over 20 shots.

 

[Draco]

I'm not sure what your points were. Replace Iggy . . . Bogut with Harkless, Leonard, Vonleh, Aminu, Plumlee, Davis and I don't see the difference. I would argue that the Curry and Klay gap between them and the rest of their team is greater than what Portland has right now. If Curry and Klay can get others involved, so can Dame and CJ.

I think we are probably not really that far apart. This was one game and an unusual one at that. Dame and CJ started hot and finished cold. The supporting cast never got up to speed to fill the void and they lost. I am pretty sure that you don't want Dame and CJ to average 20+ all season either. Certainly they will have games where they are hot and should take more shots. But, even when they are hot, I think it is important to recognize that they may not stay that way and make sure to involve others in case they get cold or tired.

If you don't see the difference between the finals MVP who has lead teams in scoring over 20ppg and Mo Harkless there's not much I can tell you.

 

[KingSpeed]

Having 2 great players who can score is a good thing.

 

[Reep]

Your comparing a high from Dame and CJ with an average of the GS players. Curry and Klay have games they shoot over 20 shots.

Yes, and I said that I expect they will have nights with 20+ shots and that was okay. I don't really care what Dame averages, as long as the two of them aren't taking 50% of the teams shots. I hope and expect they will not unless the goal is to have Dame in the national spotlight, get a good lottery pick and increase CJ's trade value. Then I don't care as long as I don't have to watch it.

 

[Reep]

If you don't ee the difference between the finals MVP who has lead teams in scoring over 20ppg and Mo Harkless there's not much I can tell you.

So people are picking on me for pointing out one game, but we are pulling out Iggy's finals performance (compared to the rest of the playoffs and regular season)?

Over the regular season, I think that Golden State's 3-10 are any less or more deserving than Portland's 3-10 of getting shot attempts. This is even more true in the regular season and for a team that is supposed to be developing 3-10, which was my premise from the start.

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

It's gonna take a couple months to gel as a new squad. We look ahead of schedule.

 

[THE HCP]

Did you NOT think this was going to happen? I want my best players shooting. Flashes of brilliance and excitement and tons of losses is on this seasons menu.


Sent from my Baller-Ass 5.5" iPhone 6+......... FAMS

 

[Reep]

Did you NOT think this was going to happen? I want my best players shooting. Flashes of brilliance and excitement and tons of losses is on this seasons menu.


Sent from my Baller-Ass 5.5" iPhone 6+......... FAMS

Hero ball--supported by the guy (or his alter ego) who is picking the under for 21 wins.

 

[ThugginPaulyGAllen]

I listened to most of the game (blacked out here in SoCal), but if this is what we have to look forward to all season, then I will save a lot of time by not watching games.

I'm not talking about the loss, I'm talking about Dame and CJ jacking up 50 attempts while the rest of the team combined get 35. Really? So much for ball movement and the Stotts offense.

I was excited about watching this team because you would never know who was going to beat you. Pick your poison. But, if a team knows that 60% of the time it will be Dame or CJ shooting then I guess you don't have to worry about the other guys so much.

If Dame and CJ average over 45 attempts a game for the season then I will switch to the under on 21 wins. Yuck.

Didn't watch the game but I'd assume when one or two players are averaging 20+ shots there are a couple factors.

1) Possible ball hog scenario
2) Defense has keyed in on role players, shutting them down, forcing the 'stars' to win the game themselves, forcing hero ball
3) Those are the only two guys on the roster that can create their own shot
4) A combination of the above
5) Aminu is out, Henderson is out, Harkless missed part of the game.

There was a reason numerous people were saying Dame could be a league leader in scoring; him and McCollum are the only shot creators; thus, if we face a team with a solid team defense, we have to put the ball into the hands of people who can create shots for themselves or others. However, if the team defense is solid, they will not create shots for others as they won't run doubles at Lillard/McCollum and force them to beat them by playing hero ball, something that is a common defensive tactic against LBJ. I'd also reserve judgement for when we have Henderson back. That said, if this becomes a trend that lasts for more than a couple games when healthy, I'd question our teams commitment to success.

 

[ThugginPaulyGAllen]

So people are picking on me for pointing out one game, but we are pulling out Iggy's finals performance (compared to the rest of the playoffs and regular season)?

Over the regular season, I think that Golden State's 3-10 are any less or more deserving than Portland's 3-10 of getting shot attempts. This is even more true in the regular season and for a team that is supposed to be developing 3-10, which was my premise from the start.

I think this is where most people disagree with you; speaking for myself, I do.

Golden states 3-10 are more deserving of shot attempts because they are better players than our 3-10 players are, right now.

If we had Andre Igoudala, Draymond Green, Harrison Barnes surrounding Dame + CJ, I doubt we are talking about how many shots Dame and CJ are taking right now. Part of that is players trusting in themselves to shoot (and not get yelled at, pulled, etc for taking a bad shot), knowing when to shoot, and having the confidence and consistency to go out there and do it every night; so, in summary, Golden State's 3-10 are entitled to more shots because they have proven consistency, while our guys have yet to show consistency. If you want shots and plays ran for you, show consistency.

Also, if we are talking our #3 (right now is..Harkless?) and their number 3 (Igoudala) if Igoudala comes to you in the 4th Q and says, hey Steph, ya know, I got this matchup. I think you trust a 10+ year nba veteran over a guy who hasn't done shit in the league.

Yes he should still get opportunties, but he needs to make the most of those opportunities before demanding 10att/per game. Show consistency, get shots.

 

[Draco]

So people are picking on me for pointing out one game, but we are pulling out Iggy's finals performance (compared to the rest of the playoffs and regular season)?

Over the regular season, I think that Golden State's 3-10 are any less or more deserving than Portland's 3-10 of getting shot attempts. This is even more true in the regular season and for a team that is supposed to be developing 3-10, which was my premise from the start.

Iggy was phenomenal all season. He lead their bench offense just as CJ did last night. Two years ago Iggy got Denver to 57 wins and when he left they were one of the worst teams in the league. He's been an allstar. His resume is far more than one playoff series.

Totally disagree with your opinion of Golden State. They have one of the deepest teams in NBA history. The Blazers have one proven starter and a vegas line of 26 wins.

 

[Draco]

The Blazers second highest ranked player on ESPN player rating was Mason Plumlee at #128.

The Warriors have these players ahead of Mason:

16. Klay Thompson (one spot behind Dame)
19. Draymond Green
56. Andre Iguodala
66. Andrew Bogut
80. Harrison Barnes
117. Shaun Livingston

The Warriors also have additional veterans who know their role but can create offense if they need to; Jason Thompson, Marressee Speights, Leandro Barbosa. They have all been double digit scorers in the NBA.

 

[illmatic99]

Are they seriously saying that Barnes and Livingston are better than anyone on our team not named Dame?

Think CJ and Meyers will change this pretty quickly.

 

[BigGameDamian]

Comparing the Worriers to the Blazers

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Comparing the Worriers to the Blazers

 

[Draco]

Didn't watch the game but I'd assume when one or two players are averaging 20+ shots there are a couple factors.

1) Possible ball hog scenario
2) Defense has keyed in on role players, shutting them down, forcing the 'stars' to win the game themselves, forcing hero ball
3) Those are the only two guys on the roster that can create their own shot
4) A combination of the above
5) Aminu is out, Henderson is out, Harkless missed part of the game.

There was a reason numerous people were saying Dame could be a league leader in scoring; him and McCollum are the only shot creators; thus, if we face a team with a solid team defense, we have to put the ball into the hands of people who can create shots for themselves or others. However, if the team defense is solid, they will not create shots for others as they won't run doubles at Lillard/McCollum and force them to beat them by playing hero ball, something that is a common defensive tactic against LBJ. I'd also reserve judgement for when we have Henderson back. That said, if this becomes a trend that lasts for more than a couple games when healthy, I'd question our teams commitment to success.

Great post. Yeah its not ideal to have Dame creating the offense every trip down the floor. We won't win a playoff series with such an unbalanced offense. But if his teammates don't help create offense a decent defense will force him into that role. There were times last night Blazer teammates had the ball and didn't look to score at all they passed right back to Dame and CJ.

 

[BigGameDamian]

Great post. Yeah its not ideal to have Dame creating the offense every trip down the floor. We won't win a playoff series with such an unbalanced offense. But if his teammates don't help create offense a decent defense will force him into that role. There were times last night Blazer teammates had the ball and didn't look to score at all they passed right back to Dame and CJ.

We can talk about playoffs after we win 70 games this season aright.

 

[Reep]

I think this is where most people disagree with you; speaking for myself, I do.

Golden states 3-10 are more deserving of shot attempts because they are better players than our 3-10 players are, right now.

No argument comparing Green to Harkless, but that is a bit of cherry picking. 5-10 on both teams look very similar. And, the point of this season is to develop the players. Pretty sure Green, Iggy, and most of the rest (except Barnes) don't need much development.

The general point is that GSW have two high volume guards who share the ball successfully. Another example is Wall and Beal, who both average under 15 shots/game. I just want to make sure Dame and CJ don't start falling in love with 50+ shots as a duo.

 

[Reep]

Iggy was phenomenal all season.

Yes, but you singled out 20+ points and MVP. He was not season MVP nor was he a 20 pt. scorer. He averaged 8 pts/game and had a PER of 12.

 

[Reep]

Here are my original thoughts. Do people really disagree with this?

...
Dame and CJ jacking up 50 attempts while the rest of the team combined get 35.

...But, if a team knows that 60% of the time it will be Dame or CJ shooting then I guess you don't have to worry about the other guys so much.

If Dame and CJ average over 45 attempts a game for the season then I will switch to the under on 21 wins. Yuck.

So Draco and others, are you really okay with:
Dame+CJ combining for 50 attempts, while shooting <50%
Dame+CJ taking 60% of the teams shots?
Believing Dame+CJ averaging 45 attempts/game will lead to more wins than losses?

 

[Draco]

Here are my original thoughts. Do people really disagree with this?



So Draco and others, are you really okay with:
Dame+CJ combining for 50 attempts, while shooting <50%
Dame+CJ taking 60% of the teams shots?
Believing Dame+CJ averaging 45 attempts/game will lead to more wins than losses?

Obviously there was a lot that needs to be improved on from the Clippers game. Nobody is saying start to finish its a blueprint for sustainable success. But there have been other games with a very different shot distribution. Heck up to halfway through the second quarter the Blazers were playing some textbook team basketball. But its a fine balance that is very hard for young players to hit. Not enough aggression and the shot clock runs out. Too much and a player is selfish. I think Dame and CJ will figure this out.

But you characterize it as individuals selfishly playing hero ball, a failure of the coaching staff, and a team you have potentially no interest in watching. All while you didn't actually watch any of the game? If that's your attitude then don't watch the team; they will struggle many times throughout this year.

This isn't the last game we'll see Dame and CJ take a bunch of poor shots when the offense isn't clicking. Some of us are interested in how this plays out and will enjoy watching improvements even if there are periods of terrible play. Your beloved Warriors wins increased from 23 and five years of the lottery to 47 wins, 51, 67 and the title so these processes take many years. If you watched that 23 win Warriors team there would've been tons of terrible "hero" ball being played.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Just to be clear, I have no problem seeing Dame and CJ taking more shots (per person) than anyone else on the team. BUT, I would rather see Dame at 20-25 and CJ 15-20. I know Hark was injured but 18 minutes with no shot attempts??? Your four bigs combined for 19 attempts??? I blame that on the "point guards". Dame and CJ have to get others involved or else you will have a lot of games like this where Dame and CJ fade because they get tired and the rest of the team can't step up because you can't get any kind of rhythm when you only get 5 shots for the game. Leonard should be 10+. A 4-4 Vonleh should be 8+ shots. Glad to see Crabbe at least get 11 off.

Yes, it is a preseason game, and maybe coach or the players wanted to see what would happen if they dominated the ball. I hope it doesn't happen often. My fear is that Dame and CJ start seeing this as their year to be "the best backcourt in the NBA" and our developing wings and bigs end up with five or less attempts per game.

I personally believe that Harkless and Vonleh, and maybe Leonard have much better potential than CJ does. So why does CJ get 20 shots and those three combine for 10?? Bad ball management by the point guards.

I missed the game so cant speak first hand, so I have a question that might not easily be answered before we just judge on the shot attempts.

Did they dribble the ball around 15 seconds and then shoot every other possession? did the ball leaves their hands and then come back to them and they shot?
How much time was the ball in other players hands and they couldn't get open or didn't shoot?

I think these are valid questions that might offset the reason why so many shots came from those two. With that said. I agree with this post. But at the same time, I want our best shooters taking the most shots. Who wouldn't?

 

[BonesJones]

Here are my original thoughts. Do people really disagree with this?



So Draco and others, are you really okay with:
Dame+CJ combining for 50 attempts, while shooting <50%
Dame+CJ taking 60% of the teams shots?
Believing Dame+CJ averaging 45 attempts/game will lead to more wins than losses?

No one else can create any offense whatsoever. Lillard and CJ bring in ultimate attack mode is what draws the defense, getting those other players shots. Sometimes games like that well be a byproduct.

 

[Reep]

No one else can create any offense whatsoever. Lillard and CJ bring in ultimate attack mode is what draws the defense, getting those other players shots. Sometimes games like that well be a byproduct.

Yes, and sometimes the point guards need to try a bit harder get get others involved, and sometimes the coaches need to yell at players or yank their a$$ for passing on shots they should have taken.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Yes, and sometimes the point guards need to try a bit harder get get others involved, and sometimes the coaches need to yell at players or yank their a$$ for passing on shots they should have taken.

Both very true. And this is why I question whether its just Dame and CJ. Coach needs to have plays for the others. Yes the PG needs to look for them more, but its also on them to get to the open spot. To shake off the defender... TO TAKE THE SHOT WHEN ITS THERE... (Hello Nic)...

 

[Reep]

 

[Draco]

CJ is 7th in scoring at 18.3.

They are #1 and 2 in MPG while Aminu is 4th and Crabbe is 10th.

Lillard is 8th in FGA per 48minutes; behind Steph Curry.

 

[Reep]

Preseason leaders in shot attempts per game:

1) Dame 21.0
2) Anthony Davis 17.4 (that's 3.6 behind the leader)
3) CJ 16.9
4) Blake G. 15.3
...
6) Hardin 14.6
...
Westbrook 13.0
...
Curry 11.3

Keep telling me this is okay.

 

[BonesJones]

Preseason leaders in shot attempts:

1) Dame 21.0
2) Anthony Davis 17.4 (that's 3.6 behind the leader)
3) CJ 16.9
4) Blake G. 15.3
...
6) Hardin 14.6
...
Westbrook 13.0
...
Curry 11.3

Keep telling me this is okay.

ITS OK!

 

[Reep]

Overall number of shots taken:
#4 Paul George 95 (7 games)
#3 Drummond 98 (7 games)
#2 Dame 105 (5 games)
#1 CJ 118 (7 games)

The green light brothers?

I'm actually not bothered by it as much as surprised. CJ took 20 more shots than anyone else? Wow. Hard to believe he and Dame are the top two and the Dame did it in only 5 games.