High usage scoring PGs who don't play defense

[KSF-ERIC]

Saw this on RealGM. He's wrong about Harden and Westbrook never going to the NBA Finals but he might be right about Dame not being able to get there.

high usage, score first point guards that don't play defense are very quickly being revealed as the fools gold of the league.

I think the money ball argument is really coming in to play with this, you are paying a premium for one of the smallest players on the court to jack up contested 3s off the dribble and take the ball to the rim.you can get your 25 pts on 25 shots from elsewhere in the team quite easily. the scoring aspect of a point guards game should be supplement the creativity, to keep the defenders guessing. Otherwise you are paying the rest of your team to stand around ball watching and allowing a chasm in defense that can be exploited.

Harden, Westbrook, Lillard never sniffed a finals appearance. Even Paul only managed to put those ghosts to rest when he gave up being the scorer to a teammate and saw his PPG plummet.

Curry is the only one that's managed to pull it off, this is down to a unique skillset. ridiculous shooting ability, playing off the ball and being, at his peak, the best finisher at the rim in the league. On top of this Curry never took breaks on defense.

 

[BonesJones]

BS. Westbrook was always extremely inefficient. That was the difference. Harden was one game away in Houston and it took an 0-for-27 night from 3 as a team and no CP3 for him to lose. Dame made the WCF and had solid leads in 3 of 4 games with a frontcourt of Aminu, Harkless, and Kanter. Plus, the NBA is becoming more positionless. If your SF plays like a PG and your PG plays like a SG, is that okay??? Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

I thought Curry was "Trash"

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Yeah, it seems too unnecessarily specific to call out "high-usage, no-defense PG's". Given the above list, and other players who might also deserve inclusion, I might suggest that "high-usage, low-efficiency, no-defense players" (irrespective of position) would be a more valid group to excoriate. Thus including players like Melo and CJ.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

If you've only got 3 or 4 examples and you've got one very prominent exception, that's not exactly a great generalization. They're just searching for a way to say "Ja sucks" without saying it.

 

[Mediocre Man]

If you've only got 3 or 4 examples and you've got one very prominent exception, that's not exactly a great generalization. They're just searching for a way to say "Ja sucks" without saying it.

Ball dominant guards who play 0 defense won’t win titles

 

[Phatguysrule]

Ball dominant guards who play 0 defense won’t win titles

Correct. And I don't think they ever have... Steph and Isaiah Thomas both played very good defense when their teams won.

 

[HansenYang]

Correct. And I don't think they ever have... Steph and Isaiah Thomas both played very good defense when their teams won.

I'd also say Steph isn't ball-dominant... GSW pass the ball extremely well.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Fun fact

Dame ranks 10th in time of possession at 7.2 seconds

Simons at 5.3

CJ at 5.0

 

[wizenheimer]

Fun fact

Dame ranks 10th in time of possession at 7.2 seconds

Simons at 5.3

CJ at 5.0

lacking lots of context

let's look at 2020-21 when Dame was healthy:




rather than focusing on just raw TOP, notice the last column, points/touch, and then compare that to the other players that are the primary for running a team's offense

everybody is talking, justifiably so, about how good Morant was this season. Fun Fact: his points/possession this season was the same as Dame's last season

by the way, if you want to derive any conclusion from the raw TOP numbers, you need to normalize for average minutes. You'd also need to try and find a formula adjusting for the difference between primary ball-handlers/initiators and secondary. For instance, last season Dame contributed 35.2% of Portland's assists; CJ contributed 22.0%. Running the offense a lot more than another will have a direct bearing on TOP and seconds/touch

 

[Phatguysrule]

I'd also say Steph isn't ball-dominant... GSW pass the ball extremely well.

Good point. Steph gets most of his looks off the catch after a screen or three... Excellent point.

 

[blazerkor]

Good point. Steph gets most of his looks off the catch after a screen or three... Excellent point.

Throughout Steph's career he's never had a higher percent of catch and shoot attempts than he has pull up attempts. His catch and shoot numbers are 10-20% more than Dame's have been on any given season and Dame does have an even higher percentage of his shots coming from pull up attempts. That being said Steph has never come close to getting "most of his looks off the catch".

 

[Phatguysrule]

Throughout Steph's career he's never had a higher percent of catch and shoot attempts than he has pull up attempts. His catch and shoot numbers are 10-20% more than Dame's have been on any given season and Dame does have an even higher percentage of his shots coming from pull up attempts. That being said Steph has never come close to getting "most of his looks off the catch".

Probably doesn't qualify as "off the catch" since he does a move after the catch. Point is, he spends a lot of time in motion with the ball out of his hands.

 

[blazerkor]

Probably doesn't qualify as "off the catch" since he does a move after the catch. Point is, he spends a lot of time in motion with the ball out of his hands.

I guess it depends on what you mean. If you mean that Steph gets in better positions because of ball movement and his own movement on the majority of plays whereas Dame uses picks but keeps the ball on the majority of his scoring possessions, then I definitely agree. The systems that Steph has been in for so long on both ends of the court have benefited him immensely and have really optimized his talent as the greatest shooter ever, they've also covered for huge weaknesses that he has shown on defense and physical weakness overall.

Edit: Dame has suffered from very unimaginitive systems on both ends throughout his career and it will be interesting to see if he can adapt to and optimize Chauncey's more sophisticated and quite frankly better systems or if Dame just plays his style of ball within the parameters that Chauncey will accept. It's pretty late in Dame's career for us to expect to see massive change.

 

[wizenheimer]

I guess it depends on what you mean. If you mean that Steph gets in better positions because of ball movement and his own movement on the majority of plays whereas Dame uses picks but keeps the ball on the majority of his scoring possessions, then I definitely agree. The systems that Steph has been in for so long on both ends of the court have benefited him immensely and have really optimized his talent as the greatest shooter ever, they've also covered for huge weaknesses that he has shown on defense and physical weakness overall.

Edit: Dame has suffered from very unimaginitive systems on both ends throughout his career and it will be interesting to see if he can adapt to and optimize Chauncey's more sophisticated and quite frankly better systems or if Dame just plays his style of ball within the parameters that Chauncey will accept. It's pretty late in Dame's career for us to expect to see massive change.

I think a lot of this isn't about X's & O's....it's jimmies and joes. Curry has played tons of games with Draymond, Livingston, Iggy, & Durant. Dame has never played with passers like that unless you count Batum. And obviously, Durant and Klay have drawn a lot of defensive attention away from Curry. Dame hasn't had that either

yeah, the Warriors have a better system, but a big part of a better system is better components

 

[Phatguysrule]

I think a lot of this isn't about X's & O's....it's jimmies and joes. Curry has played tons of games with Draymond, Livingston, Iggy, & Durant. Dame has never played with passers like that unless you count Batum. And obviously, Durant and Klay have drawn a lot of defensive attention away from Curry. Dame hasn't had that either

yeah, the Warriors have a better system, but a big part of a better system is better components

Absolutely. We're not going to win a title without at least 2 elite players. That almost never happens.

 

[Tince]

Absolutely. We're not going to win a title without at least 2 elite players. That almost never happens.

 

[Tince]

Edit: Dame has suffered from very unimaginitive systems on both ends throughout his careeget me wrong r and it will be interesting to see if he can adapt to and optimize Chauncey's more sophisticated and quite frankly better systems or if Dame just plays his style of ball within the parameters that Chauncey will accept. It's pretty late in Dame's career for us to expect to see massive change.

I like Billups, but at what point this season was Portland's offense better than it's been the last decade? What did we do that was so sophisticted?

Don't get me wrong, we had some stretches of basketball that were fun to watch, but in general, with or without the injuries, the offense was clearly worse in terms of productivity.

 

[blazerfan11]

I like Billups, but at what point this season was Portland's offense better than it's been the last decade? What did we do that was so sophisticted?

Don't get me wrong, we had some stretches of basketball that were fun to watch, but in general, with or without the injuries, the offense was clearly worse in terms of productivity.

The wording was "more sophisticated" and "better" and applied to both offense and defense. I think most people would agree that was true when players were following the plan.

 

[blazerkor]

I like Billups, but at what point this season was Portland's offense better than it's been the last decade? What did we do that was so sophisticted?

Don't get me wrong, we had some stretches of basketball that were fun to watch, but in general, with or without the injuries, the offense was clearly worse in terms of productivity.

He's just trying to implement ball and player movement on offense, which Stotts never did. He's trying to get guys really active and accountable on defense with an aggressive aproach on the floor that Stotts never tried. It is more sophisticated in that it is more of a plan but it's also just common sense that Terry didn't seem to have. Also, like @wizenheimer and @Phatguysrule pointed out he some elite complementary players would be nice for Dame as well.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

I like Billups, but at what point this season was Portland's offense better than it's been the last decade? What did we do that was so sophisticted?

Don't get me wrong, we had some stretches of basketball that were fun to watch, but in general, with or without the injuries, the offense was clearly worse in terms of productivity.

We have not seen anything from Billups. He was going through the motions. As far as I'm concerned Blazers still have a rookie coach.
Sure he got his feet wet and got a chance to get his personal systems into place. People need that to get productive. I'm sure he is better now about knowing how and when he should get to the arena and where to put his clipboard but as far as actual basketball goes? How could he even know what to expect when playing players that are just flailing around on the court trying to get a contract? Billups learned very little and showed even less. Terrible calling time outs but maybe that's because it didn't matter. Didn't get a chance to deal with tight pressure situations because there weren't any. Clock management? Nope! Inbounds plays in a tight game? Nope! How about personal issues with players or picking order on this team? Billups was a player so he knows it from the players perspective but still not as a coach. How about pulling a player that isn't producing when they are making 20-25 million a year?
Blazers still have a rookie coach.

 

[wizenheimer]

I like Billups, but at what point this season was Portland's offense better than it's been the last decade? What did we do that was so sophisticted?

Don't get me wrong, we had some stretches of basketball that were fun to watch, but in general, with or without the injuries, the offense was clearly worse in terms of productivity.

obviously, the primary component of the 'last decade's' offense had a serious abdominal injury...so it's an incomplete gauge. I just made a post yesterday showing that in the 2020-21 season, when Dame was healthy, he posted about the highest points/touch number among primary ball-handlers in the league. Having a player like that sure helps an offense

It sure seems like a lot of people forgot how good he was. A year ago, in the playoffs, he averaged 34 & 10 with a PER over 30, a TS% of .660, all while posting the highest winshare/48, OBPM, and BPM of all playoff performers. But he got no help at all from his teammates. Here's a radical idea: Blazer management (above Olshey) watched that playoff series and finally moved to the idea that dumping all those teammates while keeping Dame was an excellent idea...I agree

there were times last season (granted...just a few) when the offensive flow and off-ball movement was some of the best it's been in a decade. CJ wasn't around to MeJ, and Dame/CJ weren't around to run their 'it's-my-turn-it's-your-turn-it's-my-turn-again-dribble-mania' offense. Yeah, Dame was a part of that problem, but that problem was the primary habit of the Stotts offense. maybe it was primary because the team talent didn't allow for anything else to be effective, that I don't know even though I do know the team talent was not good and for damn sure terribly balanced

so I'm kind of hopeful. For sure the roster needs a ton more help. And for sure the desperate need is for at least one higher quality two-way wing who is a good & willing passer. getting Dame back, having him buy into Chauncey's system (and nobody has ever said Dame was not coachable) and adding a quality forward (with Hart as the 3rd guard) would give the Blazers options on offense they haven't had in Dame's career

 

[Fairly-Hard]

People keep talking about "Chauncey's System"?
What system is that? Elleby-Rat-Blevins ball? Seriously what system has Chauncey shown anyone?

 

[Wizard Mentor]

People keep talking about "Chauncey's System"?
What system is that? Elleby-Rat-Blevins ball? Seriously what system has Chauncey shown anyone?

Part of me agrees with this.
OTOH, he took 1 starter (Nurk) and 1 rotation player (Ant), and won 3 games in a row.

Management couldn't have that, so they shut both of them down, and without any rotation players left, we've lost ever since - that's not on Billups.

 

[wizenheimer]

People keep talking about "Chauncey's System"?
What system is that? Elleby-Rat-Blevins ball? Seriously what system has Chauncey shown anyone?

sure, there might not be one, or at least not a good one. But he has been around the NBA for 25 years, so there is some reason for hope. Unless of course, as it seems sometimes, some of you guys won't be satisfied till we all agree there is no hope



nothing personal FH...just having some fun

 

[Hoopguru]

People keep talking about "Chauncey's System"?
What system is that? Elleby-Rat-Blevins ball? Seriously what system has Chauncey shown anyone?

Pretty obvious he wants to push the ball and allow more than just Dame to bring it up. Motion offense is also apparent.

 

[Tince]

He's just trying to implement ball and player movement on offense, which Stotts never did. He's trying to get guys really active and accountable on defense with an aggressive aproach on the floor that Stotts never tried. It is more sophisticated in that it is more of a plan but it's also just common sense that Terry didn't seem to have. Also, like @wizenheimer and @Phatguysrule pointed out he some elite complementary players would be nice for Dame as well.

I wasn't questioning if Billups was doing different things on offense, I was questioning what part of the results were better. From the gate, our offensive rating was down, and it only got worse. Injuries in the 2nd half of the year are the likely cause of the decline, but the offense was never as good or better than it has been in the previous decade.

 

[Tince]

obviously, the primary component of the 'last decade's' offense had a serious abdominal injury...so it's an incomplete gauge. I just made a post yesterday showing that in the 2020-21 season, when Dame was healthy, he posted about the highest points/touch number among primary ball-handlers in the league. Having a player like that sure helps an offense

It sure seems like a lot of people forgot how good he was. A year ago, in the playoffs, he averaged 34 & 10 with a PER over 30, a TS% of .660, all while posting the highest winshare/48, OBPM, and BPM of all playoff performers. But he got no help at all from his teammates. Here's a radical idea: Blazer management (above Olshey) watched that playoff series and finally moved to the idea that dumping all those teammates while keeping Dame was an excellent idea...I agree

there were times last season (granted...just a few) when the offensive flow and off-ball movement was some of the best it's been in a decade. CJ wasn't around to MeJ, and Dame/CJ weren't around to run their 'it's-my-turn-it's-your-turn-it's-my-turn-again-dribble-mania' offense. Yeah, Dame was a part of that problem, but that problem was the primary habit of the Stotts offense. maybe it was primary because the team talent didn't allow for anything else to be effective, that I don't know even though I do know the team talent was not good and for damn sure terribly balanced

so I'm kind of hopeful. For sure the roster needs a ton more help. And for sure the desperate need is for at least one higher quality two-way wing who is a good & willing passer. getting Dame back, having him buy into Chauncey's system (and nobody has ever said Dame was not coachable) and adding a quality forward (with Hart as the 3rd guard) would give the Blazers options on offense they haven't had in Dame's career

I understand the Dame injury thing, though he said he's been dealing with it for many years (where the offense was still top 5). If we have a top 5 offense next year, I think the case can be made the "new offense" is producing equal results as the previous system. And to your point, Billups offense is going to have a healthy Dame, something we haven't seen for a few years.

I'm doubtful our offense will be top 3 next year, but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Tince]

The wording was "more sophisticated" and "better" and applied to both offense and defense. I think most people would agree that was true when players were following the plan.

I took issue with the word "better" and the data doesn't back that up.

Sophisticated is not something I worry about because that can be good or bad. I want the offense to produce as well as the last system and see the defensive results be much better. Last season, the results on offense were way worse and the defense was no better (yes, injuries contributed).

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Part of me agrees with this.
OTOH, he took 1 starter (Nurk) and 1 rotation player (Ant), and won 3 games in a row.

Management couldn't have that, so they shut both of them down, and without any rotation players left, we've lost ever since - that's not on Billups.

I agree wholeheartedly with the premise of possibilities but that team would also get scouted and he will need to make adjustments.
Not saying he can't? Just saying we have not seen it yet. I'm not down on Chauncey. Matter of fact I'm excited to see how good he can become.