Hillary is presumptive democratic nominee (2 Viewers)

[crandc]

Denny, this is one of the rare times we are in total agreement!

But how did this end up in the Hillary Clinton thread??? Oi, the meanderings of online conversations!

It seems so unreasonable to me, in fact downright weird, to reject a naturalist explanation for a supernatural. The ancient Greeks reportedly believed Apollo drew the sun across the sky in a chariot each day. Copernicus and Galileo demonstrated that the Earth moves around the Sun, and Newton's laws of motion definitely proved how the Earth revolves around the Sun. No Apollo needed. I prefer Newton to Apollo (even if Newton was one of the personally most unpleasant individuals in history.)

If being a nonbeliever means sinning without remorse, look at the prison population. Atheists, agnostics, secular humanist and "spiritual but not religious" are under-represented. Self described Christians over-represented. If you look at the most secular countries (Scandinavia, Netherlands, Canada for example) crime is low, violence is low, standard of living high, inequality relatively low. Look at the most wretched places to live (Somalia, Sudan) and you find very high levels of religious belief. Correlation is not causation; it could be that the traits that lead a person/country to be secular also lead to less criminal behavior. But MarAzul's position, a common one of believers, that atheism/secularism leads to immorality is not only contradicted by facts, it makes no sense! Christians believe that their god can forgive any sin if they believe in him, and reward in heaven. At its most extreme, and some Christians have said this to me in so many words, if Hitler in his last second on earth repented and expressed belief in Christ as savior, his sins are forgiven and he goes to heaven but the Jews, gays, communists, socialists, Roma, etc. he killed are all burning in hell. (The physically/mentally disabled may or may not be in heaven, depending of course on whether they were Christian.)

Atheists/secularists believe we have one chance and one chance only to live our lives, death is final, and it is up to us to live in an ethical manner since no god can forgive our lapses. Maybe that's why we don't commit a lot of crime?

 

[Denny Crane]

We're probably in total agreement more than you admit

I appreciate you raising issues from a woman's perspective, even if somewhat aggressive about it. Nothing wrong with it. And I basically agree with most of the issues you raise.

 

[MarAzul]

I don't believe in any god. Isn't that a sin?

Estrangement from god is a sin. But that is only possible if you believe in God.

 

[MarAzul]

But MarAzul's position, a common one of believers, that atheism/secularism leads to immorality is not only contradicted by facts, it makes no sense!

Excuse me, but I think you may have me confused with someone else. I never said a word about where atheism leads.

I did ask once in some thread where the atheist code of morality is documented. No one answered, and I suspect the answer is, it is not documented. They just barrow it from the Christians without acknowledgement.

 

[barfo]

I did ask once in some thread where the atheist code of morality is documented. No one answered, and I suspect the answer is, it is not documented. They just barrow it from the Christians without acknowledgement.

Atheisim isn't an organized thing, we don't get together every sunday to reinforce each others beliefs. We have our own individual moral codes.

barfo

 

[crandc]

MarAzul, you did say "you sin without remorse".

You can, of course, if you are curious, do google search for Council on Secular Humanism statement of principles - but as barfo said, there is no single atheist code. Ayn Rand was an aggressive atheist, also anti-feminist (but pro choice on abortion), pro-capitalist. Carl Sagan was an agnostic. Bill Gates an atheist. Denny and I are atheists with different views. We're not all alike. For that matter, do all Christians have the same code? Clearly, not.

 

[Denny Crane]

Estrangement from god is a sin. But that is only possible if you believe in God.

Not at all.

 

[magnifier661]

I did not vote for Barack Obama in 2008 because he opposed marriage equality.

But consider, in 2004 the Republicans put anti-equality measures on as many state ballots as they could to turn out right wing voters and every anti-equality measure passed.

In 1996 68% of the population opposed marriage equality.
In 2004 55% opposed. Most gay people thought it was something we'd not see in our lifetimes.
By 2012 equality had majority support and the majority has grown as people realize nothing has happened, except that gay people got married.

So Sanders, Clinton, Obama evolved along with the entire country.
How many of you changed your views in the past decade? Be honest.

My views changed. I have no beef with even chickens of the same gender to get married. It's non of my business frankly.

 

[riverman]

My views changed. I have no beef with even chickens of the same gender to get married. It's non of my business frankly.

You rock dude

 

[magnifier661]

You rock dude

Getting older does that to you!

 

[crandc]

If you know any chickens capable of a lifetime legal and emotional commitment I would like to meet them.

 

[barfo]

If you know any chickens capable of a lifetime legal and emotional commitment I would like to meet them.

You are into chickens???

barfo

 

[magnifier661]

If you know any chickens capable of a lifetime legal and emotional commitment I would like to meet them.

LOL. My response was hyperbolic, as in, even something as outlandish as same sex chickens wouldn't sway me. As in, I really don't care because it's none of my business.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

LOL. My response was hyperbolic, as in, even something as outlandish as same sex chickens wouldn't sway me. As in, I really don't care because it's none of my business.

Nope, you equated gays with chickens. As in they are less than human. You can't even lie and satisfy her.

I recently made the mistake of using he describing a fictional psychiatrist which makes me sexist. Then I thought about who I think of when I think of a shrink.

It is really a tie, the female shrink from 2 and a half men and Dr. Phil. I think the woman from the show is a lesbian in real life.....whatever.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

If you know any chickens capable of a lifetime legal and emotional commitment I would like to meet them.

I haven't researched it but I'd guess that chickens are more loyal over a lifetime than any human gay or straight. Oops, just did and I guess I'm wrong. Oh well.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

If you know any chickens capable of a lifetime legal and emotional commitment I would like to meet them.

Sadly, the majority of humans I've met seem to be incapable of that kind of commitment...

 

[MarAzul]

Atheisim isn't an organized thing, we don't get together every sunday to reinforce each others beliefs. We have our own individual moral codes.

barfo

So, no written code = no code.

 

[barfo]

So, no written code = no code.

Interestingly bizarre theory. Care to elaborate?

So a culture without a written language necessarily has no moral code?

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

Interestingly bizarre theory. Care to elaborate?

So a culture without a written language necessarily has no moral code?

barfo

Not necessarily, the Celtics had a code and they had no written language, but it was of the Celtic people. You said each individual atheist has his or her own moral code.
No need to get together and talk about it, apparently no need to write it down. Sound like no code, or chaos, unless of course you mostly adopt the code others in society use.

 

[Denny Crane]

So, no written code = no code.

No code is better than someone else's code forced on you.

 

[MarAzul]

someone else's code forced on you

Huh? How did you get that idea?

 

[Denny Crane]

 

[MarAzul]

Ah! I see. Your filters trap the gross.

 

[Denny Crane]

Ah! I see. Your filters trap the gross.

Religion of peace. In action.

 

[MarAzul]

Religion of peace. In action.

Ah but what religion? Nothing in the picture represents the teachings of Jesus, indeed just the opposite. But I probably should let the Christians defend their faith,
I am sure they can do much better.

In light of todays events, the image you offer might be of a Muslim sect acting out the teaching of Mohammad when they find the homosexuals.

 

[Denny Crane]

Ah but what religion? Nothing in the picture represents the teachings of Jesus, indeed just the opposite. But I probably should let the Christians defend their faith,
I am sure they can do much better.

In light of todays events, the image you offer might be of a Muslim sect acting out the teaching of Mohammad when they find the homosexuals.

They read the book of fairy tales, and it gave them motivation.

 

[crandc]

Not surprising that MarAzul is wrong on fact and interpretation.

As barfo said there is no atheist church or atheist bible. But many atheists have written about morality and ethics and show a huge variation. Ayn Rand, from whom the Tea Party claimed inspiration because she opposed taxation for the common good, was an atheist elitist, who proclaimed selfishness as a virtue and believed in an elite of rich, brilliant, physically beautiful people who mattered, and a mass who did not. The Society for Secular Humanism published a Humanist Manifesto calling for equal rights, education, promotion of science, individual liberties, among other, in the context of liberal capitalism. Leon Trotsky, an atheist Marxist and humanist, wrote a book on the subject, Their Morals and Ours, in which he argued that dominant morality in any society would be that of ruling class and called for developing a new morality. That's just three views. So yes, there is a lot written. It's just that since we have no church every atheist, agnostic, secularist can form his/her own views. Or join others whose views he/she shares.

Not surprising so much difference. After all, all Christians claim fealty to the same book but have differences at least as great as atheists. I see at every Pride Parade contingents of Christian churches, schools, and organizations. And I see at every antigay event a speakers' list of ministers hating gays. And both sides claim inspiration from the same book, just as pro and anti slavery sides did.

He is wrong on interpretation that no written code means no ethics. First, ethics existed long before writing in human culture. Every culture has had some sort of ethical/moral rules to live by, although they varied widely. Second, if atheists/agnostics/humanists have no ethics, how do you explain why we commit so few crimes? Part of it is demographics; we tend to be among the more educated and hence somewhat better off members of society; so are less likely to commit crimes of desperation. But compare atheists and believers adjusting for education and social class and the atheist/agnostic/humanists STILL commit fewer crimes.

MarAzul is wrong when he says we adopt Christian ethics without crediting. I reject Christian ethics. And I don't just mean the religious right but the whole concept. Christian ethics are based on salvation. We are all imperfect, our deeds are not what "save" us, just our faith. IMO that gives way too much leeway for shitty behavior because all you need is faith, ask Jesus and any sin forgiven. Even if you've done nothing to repair the harm done to another person hurt by one's actions. While at the same time being the best you can be gives no credit if you don't have the "right" faith. So I reject that. If anything I am closer to the Hippocratic Oath that begins, simply, "first do no harm".

 

[riverman]

So, no written code = no code.

Read Karl Marx and you'll see that actually there is a code..actually the only written work I know of that doesn't really have one is Taoism

 

[MarAzul]

I reject Christian ethics

Too bad. Really sad too.

 

[MarAzul]

Read Karl Marx and you'll see that actually there is a code..actually the only written work I know of that doesn't really have one is Taoism

I suppose you already knew I would totally reject Marx as totally anti American.

"An ethical ideology that includes the inevitability of change and the evolution of morals leaves Marxists free to abandon generally accepted moral standards in pursuit of a greater good—the creation of a classless communist society. This pursuit requires Marxists to dedicate themselves to the cause and to use whatever action they believe will bring about a classless society. Any course of action then, no matter how immoral it appears to a world that believes in an absolute or universal moral standard, is morally good within the Marxist-Leninist worldview."


Seem like we have been seeing some of this in recent years. I am hoping my countryman join me and total rejection of this load of shit.
But that is what you get when you have government become your religion. The 10 commandments and the golden rule will do fine,
much better than some wise ass rewriting the code to meet his needs this year.