Hold onto your shorts!

[Minstrel]

Forget the PER. Everyone always says we need to consolidate and have players on the bench that will be happy to be role players. I think this kid fills a hole that we currently have. A guy off the bench that can come in and play some D if Roy gets into foul trouble. Jazz fans love the guy. When I watched him play I could see why. He plays hard every time down court.

A consolidation trade means consolidating a few okay/good players into one really good one. Not acquiring questionable role-players. It's great that he plays hard, but ultimately the results are what matter.

48% from 2, 38% from 3

?

Yeah, that doesn't answer my question. Even with those percentages, he wasn't a good player. You can find guys who can shoot the ball on every YMCA court in the country. What's valuable are guys who can shoot the ball AND be good NBA players.

 

[Pinwheel1]

A consolidation trade means consolidating a few okay/good players into one really good one. Not acquiring questionable role-players. It's great that he plays hard, but ultimately the results are what matter.

Good luck with that. But if that is the goal then signing Matthew should only help. Because on this team the OK/good players you can trade are Rudy, Pryz, Bayless, and Batum. So adding someone like Matthews will help if that happens.

Remember we are talking MLE here. Who out there would you rather have that would either take the MLE (or less). I can think of a few guys who are as good, that you can get for less (Which is certainly an option) but I can't think of anyone who is better. And I certainly can't think of a PF. Maybe someone like Ridnour, but damn we have a lot of PG's

 

[RoyToy]

Yeah, that doesn't answer my question. Even with those percentages, he wasn't a good player. You can find guys who can shoot the ball on every YMCA court in the country. What's valuable are guys who can shoot the ball AND be good NBA players.

Describe why he's not a good player.

 

[Minstrel]

Good luck with that.

Are you saying trades like that never happen? That's clearly wrong. Whether Portland will pull one off, I have no idea. I didn't hang a probability on it. I just don't understand why you'd invoke "consolidation" with acquiring Matthews.

Remember we are talking MLE here. Who out there would you rather have that would either take the MLE (or less). I can think of a few guys who are as good, that you can get for less (Which is certainly an option) but I can't think of anyone who is better.

Perhaps no one at this point. That's not an argument to flagrantly overpay a guy who's not that good. Unless Allen really is willing to spend any amount of money (which I doubt), wasting money just to spend it is going to hurt the team later.

 

[Minstrel]

Describe why he's not a good player.

His production isn't very good. While his scoring efficiency is good in a low number of shots, he can't pass or rebound. The result is a player who is likely to score when he shoots, but A. isn't likely to shoot because he only takes the wide open opportunities (which aren't that valuable since many players can use up the easiest scoring opportunities) and B. isn't likely to impact the offense any other way.

His defense is a lot harder to quantify, but his defense would have to be great to overcome his lack of production.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Are you saying trades like that never happen? That's clearly wrong. Whether Portland will pull one off, I have no idea. I didn't hang a probability on it. I just don't understand why you'd invoke "consolidation" with acquiring Matthews.

I just thought adding another asset (and yes I think he would be an asset to this team) would help in the long run in the consolidation process. The more good players you have the easier it is to trade for a better player.

 

[RoyToy]

Lack of production?

He basically had the same averages as Batum in the same amount of minutes.

isn't likely to shoot because he only takes the wide open opportunities (which aren't that valuable since many players can use up the easiest scoring opportunities)

That sounds exactly like Batum.

 

[Mediocre Man]

His production isn't very good. While his scoring efficiency is good in a low number of shots, he can't pass or rebound. The result is a player who is likely to score when he shoots, but A. isn't likely to shoot because he only takes the wide open opportunities (which aren't that valuable since many players can use up the easiest scoring opportunities) and B. isn't likely to impact the offense any other way.

His defense is a lot harder to quantify, but his defense would have to be great to overcome his lack of production.

He sounds like the perfect guy to stand in the corner and wait for Brandon to pass it to him off ISO's

 

[Minstrel]

Lack of production?

He basically had the same averages as Batum in the same amount of minutes.

Batum is even more efficient a scorer and is a superior rebounder (after accounting for pace and how many rebounds were actually available). He's also viewed as a superlative defender, while Matthews is only considered to potentially be a good defender.

That sounds exactly like Batum.

Agreed. Batum has also only been taking the easiest opportunities by and large. He's just been converting them at a better clip and, as I noted, rebounds better and is generally considered to be a significantly better defender. In addition (this is more about total value as a player, rather then purely how good they each are at the moment) Batum is younger, so has more upside.

 

[Natebishop3]

Shit, I'd rather have Rudy then this fool!

Get back in the camera truck fams!

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

From Blazerbanter

Update: #Blazers expected to front load offer to #Utah_Jazz's Matthews, source says. "They're going to do everything they can."

 

[Nikolokolus]

I went over to SLCdunk.com to see what Jazz fans are saying about the impending offer and I was kind of surprised at how many people over there really want to keep him. All you see is people raving about his defense and how he could be their starting shooting guard for the next five years if they match. http://www.slcdunk.com/2010/7/10/1563165/portland-trailblazers-are


I still have no feel for how good or bad this kid would be in a Blazers uniform, but if he's able to slide between 2 and 3 and provide the kind of defense Jazz fans seem to think he's capable of and he can also hit the open shot when he's passed to then I guess you could do a lot worse.

 

[Pinwheel1]

His production isn't very good. While his scoring efficiency is good in a low number of shots, he can't pass or rebound. The result is a player who is likely to score when he shoots, but A. isn't likely to shoot because he only takes the wide open opportunities (which aren't that valuable since many players can use up the easiest scoring opportunities) and B. isn't likely to impact the offense any other way.

His defense is a lot harder to quantify, but his defense would have to be great to overcome his lack of production.

I am not sure how much you watched him play. But he is a pretty good rebounder from what I saw. He averaged 5 boards a game against the Lakers in the playoffs. And he can attack the basket as opposed to just sitting out 24 feet from the basket.

 

[Minstrel]

I went over to SLCdunk.com to see what Jazz fans are saying about the impending offer and I was kind of surprised at how many people over there really want to keep him. All you see is people raving about his defense and how he could be their starting shooting guard for the next five years if they match. http://www.slcdunk.com/2010/7/10/1563165/portland-trailblazers-are


I still have no feel for how good or bad this kid would be in a Blazers uniform, but if he's able to slide between 2 and 3 and provide the kind of defense Jazz fans seem to think he's capable of and he can also hit the open shot when he's passed to then I guess you could do a lot worse.

As a bargain basement gamble, I'd actually be quite interested in Matthews. The problem is, it doesn't sound like he'll be cheap. If Portland gives him anything close to the MLE, he'll have to improve a lot just to be worth his salary. There's no upside to paying a player essentially what his best case will be worth.

 

[Minstrel]

I am not sure how much you watched him play. But he is a pretty good rebounder from what I saw. He averaged 5 boards a game against the Lakers in the playoffs. And he can attack the basket as opposed to just sitting out 24 feet from the basket.

I didn't watch him a ton, but I also don't particularly trust infrequent observation to determine a skill like rebounding. His Rebound Rate (the percentage of available rebounds he got) was not very good. It wasn't terrible, so maybe saying he "can't rebound" is overstatement, but it's not a strength.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I went over to SLCdunk.com to see what Jazz fans are saying about the impending offer and I was kind of surprised at how many people over there really want to keep him. All you see is people raving about his defense and how he could be their starting shooting guard for the next five years if they match. http://www.slcdunk.com/2010/7/10/1563165/portland-trailblazers-are


I still have no feel for how good or bad this kid would be in a Blazers uniform, but if he's able to slide between 2 and 3 and provide the kind of defense Jazz fans seem to think he's capable of and he can also hit the open shot when he's passed to then I guess you could do a lot worse.

I have many Jazz friends. They love the guy. I had to watch their games just to see what they were talking about. You can't help but not want a guy like that on your team. Now at what price is another argument.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

One interesting thing about Matthews is that his minutes went way up in the playoffs. Less than 25 mpg in the regular season, more than 37 mpg in the playoffs. (Less encouraging is that his fg% suffered - 38% (although 36% from 3, and almost 5 fta per game - more than Boozer)

As I've said elsewhere, I don't see him as a Rudy replacement - he's more of a short SF, and I doubt he has the passing skills - he seems like a Martell replacement. Which is a little weird, if we end up paying him more.

 

[oldmangrouch]

8 guards on the roster! To heck with hiring a GM....can we get somebody who can count?

Mathews might be the 3rd or 4th best guard on the team (depending on how optimistic you are about Bayless), so I guess this could be seen as a repudiation of KP's drafting ability - or something.

Still.....8 freaking guards.

 

[B-Roy]

TOXIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[RoyToy]

Batum is even more efficient a scorer and is a superior rebounder (after accounting for pace and how many rebounds were actually available). He's also viewed as a superlative defender, while Matthews is only considered to potentially be a good defender.

Batum's of course better, but the point is Matthews' numbers are right there. As far as rebounding, Matthews is a 6-5 G while Batum is a 6-9 SF. Of course Batum is the better rebounder. Besides, Utah was a better rebounding team than Portland anyways, and like I said, he's a G. Anyways, I wasn't trying to go down the line and compare the two at everything, just that their numbers are very similar in the same amount of minutes.

Don't know enough about Matthews on defense, but from what I've heard he sounds like he's about Martell Webster on defense, which isn't bad at all. I'd have to watch more to really get a better idea though.

Main point being, you said Wesley Matthews isn't a good player, and that's just false. Rudy Fernandez isn't a good player. Matthews can actually put the ball on the floor and get to the hoop and finish. I think you just got too caught up in using PER again.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I am not sure how much you watched him play. But he is a pretty good rebounder from what I saw. He averaged 5 boards a game against the Lakers in the playoffs. And he can attack the basket as opposed to just sitting out 24 feet from the basket.

The curse of small sample sizes, for the rest of the year his rebound rate was a paltry 6% ... that's baaaaad!

 

[Nikolokolus]

8 guards on the roster! To heck with hiring a GM....can we get somebody who can count?

Mathews might be the 3rd or 4th best guard on the team (depending on how optimistic you are about Bayless), so I guess this could be seen as a repudiation of KP's drafting ability - or something.

Still.....8 freaking guards.

One day we're going to see this lineup.

Mills, Bayless, Miller, Roy and Williams, with Johnson, Matthews and Rudy off the bench. Nate's finally got his lineup to counter Nellie.

 

[Pinwheel1]

The curse of small sample sizes, for the rest of the year his rebound rate was a paltry 6% ... that's baaaaad!

Not sure how the Jazz rebounded when he was on the floor. But I do know that Duckworths rebounds were lower when Buck, Jerome, Clyde and TP were on the floor.

 

[Minstrel]

Main point being, you said Wesley Matthews isn't a good player, and that's just false.

No, it's quite true.

I think you just got too caught up in using PER again.

Absolutely. I like using something objective to measure player production, considering that none of us see all non-Portland players enough to make solid judgments on what are pretty subtle differences that mean a lot in terms of effectiveness and none of us are professional scouts. PER uses scoring, assists and rebounds just as you do, it just adjusts for efficiency (in scoring), opportunities (in rebounds and assists) and pace (everything, basically). I think you just got too caught up in using raw numbers again.

 

[Pinwheel1]

8 guards on the roster! To heck with hiring a GM....can we get somebody who can count?

Mathews might be the 3rd or 4th best guard on the team (depending on how optimistic you are about Bayless), so I guess this could be seen as a repudiation of KP's drafting ability - or something.

Still.....8 freaking guards.

It is July 10th. I would bet we don't go into the season with 8 guards.

 

[Nikolokolus]

OK, let me ask this. Does anybody really think the Jazz won't match?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Some players' value doesn't show in their PER. Batum is one of these. Probably because a key virtue is defense, which PER doesn't measure. The poster boy for this is Tayshaun Prince. His per at age 23, in the season the Pistons won the title, was 13.3.

 

[Tortimer]

OK, let me ask this. Does anybody really think the Jazz won't match?

I almost 100% sure the Jazz will match.

 

[Minstrel]

OK, let me ask this. Does anybody really think the Jazz won't match?

Depends on what the offer is. If it's a full MLE offer...they might not, because he probably isn't worth that. Of course, you can't always account for competitiveness. No matter how bad an idea it is, they may not want to feel like they got "beaten by Portland" for one of their players.

 

[Minstrel]

Some players' value doesn't show in their PER. Batum is one of these. Probably because a key virtue is defense, which PER doesn't measure.

PER doesn't measure defense, that's true. No one really claims it does. It's a production measure. Batum actually had a pretty nice PER for last season and it's even better when you consider his age and likely growth curve.

If Matthews is a true defensive ace, then I'm a lot more interested. I did note that in my first post about him.