Hollinger takes isolation offenses to task

[BrianFromWA]

Well, it was probably b/c of this exchange...(paraphrased)

"Our offense would be great with a healthy center"
"Uh, when we had a healthy center Nate didn't want to use him as part of it. Don't believe me, here's the quote"
"bwahaha"
(then you came in)

 

[BrianFromWA]

Would it stand to reason, then, that maybe if Nate had had an inkling to use him as part of the offense, he'd have worked him into the offense in the preseason that doesn't count, or the first 14 games of the season? Point still stands...

 

[RoyToy]

Hard to work in a guy that doesn't stay on the floor and at times only plays 2-3 minutes a quarter.

If Oden was consistent at staying on the floor and averaged 30 or more minutes a game, I'd have a problem. But his minutes and playing time are so inconsistent that I can't fault Nate much in Oden's perceived lack of shot attempts. Overall the level that Oden was starting to play at was exciting, so I find it hard to start throwing blame out.

As far as Hollinger's iso-heavy offense and playoff success, it's probably apart of why the Hawks and Blazers lost, but there are certainly other factors as well. I think it's a tad unfair to to tie all of the lack of success to iso-heavy offenses. In the end the teams with the best rosters win in the NBA. The Celtics offense is as boring as it can get and they've been a top 5-10 team in the NBA the past 3 years. Doc Rivers always seems to be getting criticized for something. They still won a championship, and they're still really competitive.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Hard to work in a guy that doesn't stay on the floor and at times only plays 2-3 minutes a quarter.

If Oden was consistent at staying on the floor and averaged 30 or more minutes a game, I'd have a problem. But his minutes and playing time are so inconsistent that I can't fault Nate much in Oden's perceived lack of shot attempts. Overall the level that Oden was starting to play at was exciting, so I find it hard to start throwing blame out.

As far as Hollinger's iso-heavy offense and playoff success, it's probably apart of why the Hawks and Blazers lost, but there are certainly other factors as well. I think it's a tad unfair to to tie all of the lack of success to iso-heavy offenses. In the end the teams with the best rosters win in the NBA. The Celtics offense is as boring as it can get and they've been a top 5-10 team in the NBA the past 3 years. Doc Rivers always seems to be getting criticized for something. They still won a championship, and they're still really competitive.

He's not tying all of the lack of success to just the offenses, he's pointing out what was each team's overwhelming strength in the regular season has been mostly neutered or countered in the playoffs through 31 game in the last two years. It's about those supposedly top tier regular season offenses (by efficiency) turning into mediocre piles of mush when faced with a team that has lots of time to prepare for it; that's what his analysis is getting at ... at least tentatively, he concedes that his hypothesis may need some more data to evaluate it completely.

 

[Minstrel]

at least tentatively, he concedes that his hypothesis may need some more data to evaluate it completely.

That's the part that confuses me a bit...why is he restricting his sample to the Blazers and Hawks of the past two seasons in evaluating his theory? Is he contending that the Blazers and Hawks of the past two seasons are the only ISO-heavy offensives in post-season history?

 

[blazerboy30]

I didn't read the Hollinger piece, just saw someone post that McMillan didn't know what he was doing with Oden, ignoring the fact that Oden was playing the best ball of his career before he got injured.

And what does that prove? This only says that Oden was playing better this time with Nate as his coach than last time with Nate as his coach. It does nothing to suggest that Nate was using him as well as another coach might have.

 

[Nikolokolus]

That's the part that confuses me a bit...why is he restricting his sample to the Blazers and Hawks of the past two seasons in evaluating his theory? Is he contending that the Blazers and Hawks of the past two seasons are the only ISO-heavy offensives in post-season history?

I don't know why he's restricting it ... that said, can you think of a really successful iso heavy team in the past decade or so? (that's not a rhetorical question btw).

 

[jlprk]

The reason that Nate couldn't adjust anything, is because he didn't have a player worth a damn to make PHX pay for what they did.

I find that the transition and fast break game tends to be more or less based on player ability, not the coach.

So Pritchard hasn't brought in such great players after all. I think both he and McMillan are limited. Each has positives and negatives, but after adding them together, each is merely average at his job.

 

[blazerboy30]

So Pritchard hasn't brought in such great players after all. I think both he and McMillan are limited. Each has positives and negatives, but after adding them together, each is merely average at his job.

Which GM's in the NBA are doing a better job than KP?

 

[BrianFromWA]

Presti, of course. He thought Durant would be better than Oden.

 

[Minstrel]

So Pritchard hasn't brought in such great players after all.

He hasn't brought in great players to replace the great players who were injured, no.

Of course, neither has any team.

So yes, Pritchard IS a terrible GM...he's just better than all the others ones.

 

[jlprk]

Which GM's in the NBA are doing a better job than KP?

Anyone who has better players than ours. Going with the hypothesis (upon which I was commenting) that it's the players, not the coaching, then the Suns have a better GM. Continuing with that theory, any team above us in the standings (regular or playoff) has better players than us and therefore a better GM.

He hasn't brought in great players to replace the great players who were injured, no.

Who are our great players who were injured in the playoffs? Roy is much less of a player in a non-iso system, Oden is a know-nothing until coaches find the desire to teach him something instead of letting him lolligag around his mother's sofa, and who else do you have in mind as a great player that Pritchard has brought in?

 

[Minstrel]

Who are our great players who were injured in the playoffs?

Roy and Oden. Roy is now a two-time All-NBA and Oden was around 23 PER with top-tier defense.

 

[blazerboy30]

Anyone who has better players than ours. Going with the hypothesis (upon which I was commenting) that it's the players, not the coaching, then the Suns have a better GM. Continuing with that theory, any team above us in the standings (regular or playoff) has better players than us and therefore a better GM.

Let's assume your lame-ass theory actually works (it doesn't, but I'll play your fantasy game). We finished above average in the standings, so therefore, we must have an above average GM. Which completely goes against your original statement that we have an "average" GM.

Checkmate.

Game, set, match.

I accept your apology.

 

[Blaze01]

Glad to see that Hollinger is noticing what seems to be a glaring trend with POR offensively....

The Iso offense may work fine in the regular season, but in the playoffs when teams have the time to pick apart your offense, the iso offense becomes ridiculously easy to defend....

This has got to change if POR has any hope of becoming a legitimate title contender, let alone advance out of the 1st round....

I find it ironic that if you asked Nate or any coach for that matter if forcing the opposing team into an offense where their 3rd or 4th scoring option had to take or create a shot with less that 3-4 seconds left, or their star player had to force shots up through double\triple teams was a good defensive effort, they would all unanimously say yes...and yet I have basically described POR post season offense....

You just cannot win playoff games with that kind of offense...

 

[jlprk]

Roy and Oden. Roy is now a two-time All-NBA and Oden was around 23 PER with top-tier defense.

And you think only an above-average GM would have drafted Oden and made the Roy trade over a span of 3 years of drafts, summers, and midseason trade deadlines? Sounds like an average performance to me, especially given the Paul Allen $3M advantage that anyone holding that job has.

Anyway, my response to this thread's "Get better players" is, "To do that, get a less weird Coach and GM, i.e. a Coach without an anti-running bias, and a GM without a radical youth philosophy of building almost totally through the draft."

 

[blazerboy30]

And you think only an above-average GM would have drafted Oden and made the Roy trade over a span of 3 years of drafts, summers, and midseason trade deadlines? Sounds like an average performance to me, especially given the Paul Allen $3M advantage that anyone holding that job has.

Why don't you create the list of teams that have had as big of an increase in record over the last 4 years as the Blazers. Will that list include 15 teams, and show that KP has done an "average" job?

 

[Minstrel]

And you think only an above-average GM would have drafted Oden and made the Roy trade over a span of 3 years of drafts, summers, and midseason trade deadlines?

I wasn't using those two players as stand-alone proof of his GMing excellence, just responding to your assertion that Portland not having any true go-to guys on the floor against Phoenix meant that Pritchard hasn't acquired any great players. He has, they were hurt.

Now, if your point is that durability is a part of greatness and them being hurt is a reason they're not great, I can understand that viewpoint, though I'm not yet at the stage where I feel that their injury history disqualifies them from greatness.

 

[Kaydow]

I think the best executing offense in the league, with the best motion and passing, is Utah's. They move the ball. The only guy who handles the ball for long periods of time is the PG, but even they are constantly on the move. The only problem they have, is they lack size.

100% agree. I heard Jerry Sloan, when asked why his offense is so effective, simply stated "we screen you to death". And it's true. Watch the screens they set, and it's not just on pick and rolls. I'm not talking about the half-hearted screens that LA sets (when he's really more concered with slipping through and receiving a pass for an 18' jumper). They don't have great one-on-one players and yet they get quality shots a hellova lot more possesions than we do. It is possible.

 

[BGrantFan]

100% agree. I heard Jerry Sloan, when asked why his offense is so effective, simply stated "we screen you to death". And it's true. Watch the screens they set, and it's not just on pick and rolls. I'm not talking about the half-hearted screens that LA sets (when he's really more concered with slipping through and receiving a pass for an 18' jumper). They don't have great one-on-one players and yet they get quality shots a hellova lot more possesions than we do. It is possible.

Utah also has 2 members of the USA Olympic team on their roster now, and Sloan has yet to win a title with his system.

 

[blazerboy30]

Utah also has 2 members of the USA Olympic team on their roster now, and Sloan has yet to win a title with his system.

What are you saying? Are you saying that Portland's offensive scheme is just as good as Utah's offensive scheme?

 

[LittleAlex]

Hard to work in a guy that doesn't stay on the floor and at times only plays 2-3 minutes a quarter.

If Oden was consistent at staying on the floor and averaged 30 or more minutes a game, I'd have a problem. But his minutes and playing time are so inconsistent that I can't fault Nate much in Oden's perceived lack of shot attempts. Overall the level that Oden was starting to play at was exciting, so I find it hard to start throwing blame out.

As far as Hollinger's iso-heavy offense and playoff success, it's probably apart of why the Hawks and Blazers lost, but there are certainly other factors as well. I think it's a tad unfair to to tie all of the lack of success to iso-heavy offenses. In the end the teams with the best rosters win in the NBA. The Celtics offense is as boring as it can get and they've been a top 5-10 team in the NBA the past 3 years. Doc Rivers always seems to be getting criticized for something. They still won a championship, and they're still really competitive.

This was due to Nate's delightful "2 fouls then sit the rest of the first half" rule he applied ONLY to Oden.

In addition, Nate seems to almost pathologically hate the idea of a player fouling out of a game.

Fouls didn't limit Oden's playing time.

The coach did.

 

[LittleAlex]

Utah also has 2 members of the USA Olympic team on their roster now, and Sloan has yet to win a title with his system.

It also has 6 players who were either undrafted or 2nd round draft picks.

The two players you just mentioned are pretty much the only great players the team has.

 

[BGrantFan]

It also has 6 players who were either undrafted or 2nd round draft picks.

The two players you just mentioned are pretty much the only great players the team has.

AK47 and Okur have both been All-Stars as well.

Portland has one All-Star player on their roster.

Try again. Utah has two US Olympians, and Okur (All Star in 2007) and Kirilenko (All Star in 2004) on their roster the past 4 years. What has Utah won?

 

[BGrantFan]

This was due to Nate's delightful "2 fouls then sit the rest of the first half" rule he applied ONLY to Oden.

In addition, Nate seems to almost pathologically hate the idea of a player fouling out of a game.

Fouls didn't limit Oden's playing time.

The coach did.

Yes, it's Nate's fault for not letting the opponents get into the bonus early in games. Come on now.

 

[Denny Crane]

Nate likes to exloit mis-matches. Which is logical. Running an ISO is fine as long as you have more than one player on the floor who can do it so they can't double and even tripple the guy.

One of the announcers said Portland has no jump shooters other than Roy (Who at the time was not playing). This is true. We have set shooters. Phoenix has at least two in Nash and Richardson. We need one other guy who can take their man off the dribble. Nothing we have not discussed in length over the years. The ISO would not be a problem for Atlanta either if Roy and Johnson were on the same team. (Or if Johnson was on our team)

Give me one other guy other than Roy who can you can isolate, and two of our set shooters, and one of our Centers, and we are fine.

This.

 

[BGrantFan]

Nate likes to exloit mis-matches. Which is logical. Running an ISO is fine as long as you have more than one player on the floor who can do it so they can't double and even tripple the guy.

One of the announcers said Portland has no jump shooters other than Roy (Who at the time was not playing). This is true. We have set shooters. Phoenix has at least two in Nash and Richardson. We need one other guy who can take their man off the dribble. Nothing we have not discussed in length over the years. The ISO would not be a problem for Atlanta either if Roy and Johnson were on the same team. (Or if Johnson was on our team)

Give me one other guy other than Roy who can you can isolate, and two of our set shooters, and one of our Centers, and we are fine.

We had that last year with Outlaw. Unfortunately, we got rid of him. Blake was a set shooter. He's gone as well. In their place is a guy who can't consistently hit his own shot in Miller, and a center who is basically a liability on offense, and who has a funky set shot he rarely hits in Camby.

 

[JDC]

We had that last year with Outlaw. Unfortunately, we got rid of him. Blake was a set shooter. He's gone as well. In their place is a guy who can't consistently hit his own shot in Miller, and a center who is basically a liability on offense, and who has a funky set shot he rarely hits in Camby.

Camby actually shot very well from the outside with the blazers....47% for 16-23 feet. Although we shouldn't expect that to continue as it's way above his career numbers.

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Marcus Camby

 

[Pinwheel1]

We had that last year with Outlaw. Unfortunately, we got rid of him. Blake was a set shooter. He's gone as well. In their place is a guy who can't consistently hit his own shot in Miller, and a center who is basically a liability on offense, and who has a funky set shot he rarely hits in Camby.

Well I wouldn't mind having BOTH Camby and Travis. But ideally that 2nd guy to compliment Roy needs to come from the PG position. He needs to be fast going to the hoop, who can pull up for the J. I doubt we can pry Stephen Curry, but I bet Ellis is attainable for Rudy, Bayless and Pryz.

 

[LittleAlex]

Yes, it's Nate's fault for not letting the opponents get into the bonus early in games. Come on now.

Nate would keep Oden out of the game in the 4th quarter to prevent him from getting his 6th foul all the time.

That essentially made it so that Oden fouled out with 5 fouls instead of six.

Also, you think that not having a guy play late in the second quarter because he has two fouls is a smart move? Why not let him get his third if he can give you 3 to 4 minutes of valuable play near the end of the first half.