Honest question for Stotts supporters

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100 passes per game....that seems like quite a bit. Especially since many of Portland's passes are basically hand-offs 25' from the basket as they run the weave.

iu

Awesome post! This actually points out why you wouldn't want to use passes as a relevant stat. Plenty of passes in the NBA are uncontested passes outside the perimeter or are even encouraged by the defense to get the ball out of the hands of a good player to a lesser threat.
 
I really liked his @wizenheimer post and I found it interesting. 20 data points that are heavy on a couple coaches would not provided anything statisically relevant.

All the bullet points you listed appear to be your theories or ones shared with you during your playing experience. We're lucky in this day and age that we have more data to test of these theories are true or not.

You last point is interesting because Portland has been no worse than 16th under Stotts and top 5 a few times. Do you think we're getting those rebounds because of all the movement our offense is causing?

I like reading the theories and stories on here as I think it's great to not have your mind made up on a topic. Usually all I'm doing is asking if the data backs up any of these theories or applying the same logic to a different situation. Some of the theories are backed up, some aren't.
I don't have time to do this today but perhaps it would be more relevant to look at the Blazers record in correlation to assist numbers.

Record above their average assists per game.

Record below their average assists per game.

Record with 20 or more assists.

Record with 25 or more assists.

Record with 30 or more assists.
 
yeeeeeeesh!

so then, Portland is dead last in the NBA in:

* assists,
* passes made
* passes received
* potential assists
* assist points created
* adjusted assists

now, the correlation between a lot of these categories and a winning record does seem a bit tenuous. But even if you just sort by raw assist numbers, 7 of the top-10 teams are Denver, 76ers, Bucks, Lakers, Pacers, Miami, and Toronto. So maybe the correlation is a little stronger than it seems. Even when you drop lower in the rankings, you see Portland at a disadvantage against other lower-assist-winning-teams. Dame/CJ/Melo just don't have the one-on-one power of Kawhi/PG13/Lou Williams or Harden/Westbrook. Portland is bringing dull knives to gunfights

Your posts are almost always really strong, including this one. As you know, I don't put much weight in stats that have proven to have a low correlation, so I won't go deeper into that on this point. What I will ask you is: do you think the stats you listed are a primary cause of a coach? Meaning if you look at the long term track record of a bunch of coaches, those stats would be fairly consistent? Or do you think they would change as their rosters/talent levels change?
 
I don't have time to do this today but perhaps it would be more relevant to look at the Blazers record in correlation to assist numbers.

Record above their average assists per game.

Record below their average assists per game.

Record with 20 or more assists.

Record with 25 or more assists.

Record with 30 or more assists.

Would be somewhat interesting for sure. Would we only be looking at one season or multiple seasons?

My general assumption would be on nights where shots are going in, assists would go up. I'd be much more interested in how many shot attempts would have been given an assist had it gone in.
 
I don't have time to do this today but perhaps it would be more relevant to look at the Blazers record in correlation to assist numbers.

Record above their average assists per game.

Record below their average assists per game.

Record with 20 or more assists.

Record with 25 or more assists.

Record with 30 or more assists.

That.
 
Would be somewhat interesting for sure. Would we only be looking at one season or multiple seasons?

My general assumption would be on nights where shots are going in, assists would go up. I'd be much more interested in how many shot attempts would have been given an assist had it gone in.
Yeah, there are stats for potential assists. Maybe that would be better or a good comparison.
 
Simple eyetest shows that we play better when ball is moving. And why not? If you move the ball you find more open shots. If you move the ball, you make other team run more. If you move the ball, it means you actually have some plays in your playbook.
How can people not see correlation between dead last in passing, losing the games and Stotts?
I mean, plan for game against Blazers? Three people on Lillard. That's it.

Also, some people here know, that we don't have any proper PG for like hundred years now.

And I was saying this years ago: This team roster is made by students playing NBA on PlayStation and coaching is from playstation as well: Got Damian and CJ and play them constant ISO. Who needs passes to open up spots? Who needs playbook. Two things: Shot Lillard from logo and add some CJ circus shots. Works for playstation.
 
Your posts are almost always really strong, including this one. As you know, I don't put much weight in stats that have proven to have a low correlation, so I won't go deeper into that on this point. What I will ask you is: do you think the stats you listed are a primary cause of a coach? Meaning if you look at the long term track record of a bunch of coaches, those stats would be fairly consistent? Or do you think they would change as their rosters/talent levels change?
I just have to say, I really appreciate the way you respond to people who are disagreeing with or countering your perspective.
 
I have defended The coaching staff throughout their tenure but numbers don’t lie. Maybe the number of passes doesn’t exactly show the complete picture (your two best players are in the backcourt, start with the ball and the team actually needs them to end with the ball...), but everyone knows ball movement is a critical part of basketball. Full stop. They need to fix that or they’ll be gone within the next year I have no doubt.
 
Your posts are almost always really strong, including this one. As you know, I don't put much weight in stats that have proven to have a low correlation, so I won't go deeper into that on this point. What I will ask you is: do you think the stats you listed are a primary cause of a coach? Meaning if you look at the long term track record of a bunch of coaches, those stats would be fairly consistent? Or do you think they would change as their rosters/talent levels change?

How about this correlation. In the last 30 years, list all the teams that won a title with a pair of undersized guards who didn't play much defense. Maybe add to that 2 undersized guards that don't play much defense that average as few of assists as Dame/CJ do. To be fair, Dame is at the highest point of his career but in total, their combined averages have not been very high. Add that to the size and lack of defense and I'm wondering what the success correlation is.
 
Simple eyetest shows that we play better when ball is moving. And why not? If you move the ball you find more open shots. If you move the ball, you make other team run more. If you move the ball, it means you actually have some plays in your playbook.
How can people not see correlation between dead last in passing, losing the games and Stotts?
I mean, plan for game against Blazers? Three people on Lillard. That's it.

Also, some people here know, that we don't have any proper PG for like hundred years now.

And I was saying this years ago: This team roster is made by students playing NBA on PlayStation and coaching is from playstation as well: Got Damian and CJ and play them constant ISO. Who needs passes to open up spots? Who needs playbook. Two things: Shot Lillard from logo and add some CJ circus shots. Works for playstation.
But there is no statistical correlation between an eye test and truth :morningtime:
 
How about this correlation. In the last 30 years, list all the teams that won a title with a pair of undersized guards who didn't play much defense. Maybe add to that 2 undersized guards that don't play much defense that average as few of assists as Dame/CJ do. To be fair, Dame is at the highest point of his career but in total, their combined averages have not been very high. Add that to the size and lack of defense and I'm wondering what the success correlation is.

It reads more like a story, but I enjoyed the read!
 
I just have to say, I really appreciate the way you respond to people who are disagreeing with or countering your perspective.

Thanks @PtldPlatypus . We're all Blazer fans, we (mostly) all want the same outcome, and I personally grow when people challenge my ideas; so it's only right to praise all the people who think I'm crazy, but keep the discussion on a factual level. There are a bunch of great people on this board who disagree with me, but I come here for the discussion.
 

For sure. The perspective of someone who has an NBA coaching tree adds a bunch of value to the discussion. I'd love to know the coaching tree, but I respect if they want to keep that stuff secret.

I'm not sure the high level playing/coaching experience on this board is greater than that of the Blazers coaching staff, so if we're saying that more high level basketball experience means their theories are more valid, then we all should just trust the Blazers coaching staff. That would be BORING though and I don't want that!
 
What I will ask you is: do you think the stats you listed are a primary cause of a coach? Meaning if you look at the long term track record of a bunch of coaches, those stats would be fairly consistent? Or do you think they would change as their rosters/talent levels change?

my answer is probably a combination of 'it's complicated' and it's a 'chicken-and-egg' thing

start with a couple of disclaimers:
* I don't like Olshey, at all
* I really don't like the Dame/CJ pairing; I think they are way too redundant in style, size, tendencies, and bad defense

yeah, that's bias, but it is the lens I look thru when analyzing Portland

let's hop in the way-back machine and jump 4 1/2 years into the past. My disdain for Olshey wasn't as strong back then, but it was there. I hated the way he cheap-screwed together his first two Portland benches. They were historically bad, and he had options he chose not to pursue. I also hated that he made max offers to Roy Hibbert and Greg Monroe, and a max-MLE offer to Spenser Hawes. Ok, a GM can't be perfect, but still, those were poor moves in my view and at that time it was apparent what a weak pick Meyers was

anyway, it's 2015 and Matthews has ruptured his Achilles. Portland limps into the playoffs against Memphis. They get hammered 4-1 and their season ends in a whimper. Worse, is that Memphis sets the template for defending Dame and the Blazers by blanketing him with the defense of Tony Allen, Courtney Lee, and Conley and always having Gasol or Green hedging or trapping Dame at every screen. That template becomes Portland's biggest weakness. But there's a report from the Blazer locker room after the elimination game...I think it was either Quick or Haynes reporting, about how Olshey was really, really excited about how CJ had performed. How Olshey was chortling to Stotts in an "I told you so" fashion about CJ...this minutes after the season ended. If I'm recalling things wrong, let me know

fast forward a little to the off-season; Batum has been traded and Aldridge, Matthews, and Lopez all walk. Olshey has cleared the roster and one of the main things he's cleared is any competition CJ has for playing time. He is asked several times about the Blazers not having a backup PG and he keeps insisting that CJ can be a great backup PG.

and to this day, he's never added a decent backup PG, and my suspicion is he knows if Stotts had that option, he'd use it over CJ at times. For 4.4 seasons now, Dame has been the only PG on the roster, and I think that's always been a big weakness. And of course, the Dame-centric defensive template that Memphis set has killed Portland in the playoffs every damn year since, in no small part because Portland has nobody besides Dame who can consistently run an offense against strong defensive resistance. If an opponent can shut down Dame they take out Portland's best scorer and the only guy who runs the offense. That's always worth the effort

so when you ask if it's the coach, I think first that Stotts has not had good tools in his toolbox to adjust away from all the one-on-one possessions that CJ brings to the floor. But a tool he does have is he controls the offense and the schemes and the rotations, and he could have developed better off-ball action after more than 4 years than he has. And the thing is that while CJ is a very clever ball-handler, prone to over-dribbling, he's not efficient in one-on-one because he's terrible at getting to the foul line. His iso-ball is featured in the offense to the overall detriment of the offense....IMO, Stotts could easily throttle that back and implement more accountability for selfish play

so yeah, I blame Stotts for some of this. But I blame Olshey too. For instance, if Portland had a backup PG like Rondo (just an example), I don't believe we'd see all this one-on-one bullshit. But Rondo is an actual PG. Napier and Curry aren't, neither is Simons, and for damn sure, Turner, Hezonja, and Bazemore aren't. And of course, CJ isn't. But that's who Sotts has been stuck with
 
Well if Eric Griffith says ISO ball is not the problem, then it must not be the problem :smiley-bonk:
I think the point is that while ISO ball is not optimal (and we certainly saw that last night), the offense is performing at a level that could/should be conducive to winning, if the team were able to perform acceptably on the other end. For all the kvetching about low assists and "ballhogging", the overall offensive efficiency is actually pretty good.
 
my answer is probably a combination of 'it's complicated' and it's a 'chicken-and-egg' thing

start with a couple of disclaimers:
* I don't like Olshey, at all
* I really don't like the Dame/CJ pairing; I think they are way too redundant in style, size, tendencies, and bad defense

yeah, that's bias, but it is the lens I look thru when analyzing Portland

let's hop in the way-back machine and jump 4 1/2 years into the past. My disdain for Olshey wasn't as strong back then, but it was there. I hated the way he cheap-screwed together his first two Portland benches. They were historically bad, and he had options he chose not to pursue. I also hated that he made max offers to Roy Hibbert and Greg Monroe, and a max-MLE offer to Spenser Hawes. Ok, a GM can't be perfect, but still, those were poor moves in my view and at that time it was apparent what a weak pick Meyers was

anyway, it's 2015 and Matthews has ruptured his Achilles. Portland limps into the playoffs against Memphis. They get hammered 4-1 and their season ends in a whimper. Worse, is that Memphis sets the template for defending Dame and the Blazers by blanketing him with the defense of Tony Allen, Courtney Lee, and Conley and always having Gasol or Green hedging or trapping Dame at every screen. That template becomes Portland's biggest weakness. But there's a report from the Blazer locker room after the elimination game...I think it was either Quick or Haynes reporting, about how Olshey was really, really excited about how CJ had performed. How Olshey was chortling to Stotts in an "I told you so" fashion about CJ...this minutes after the season ended. If I'm recalling things wrong, let me know

fast forward a little to the off-season; Batum has been traded and Aldridge, Matthews, and Lopez all walk. Olshey has cleared the roster and one of the main things he's cleared is any competition CJ has for playing time. He is asked several times about the Blazers not having a backup PG and he keeps insisting that CJ can be a great backup PG.

and to this day, he's never added a decent backup PG, and my suspicion is he knows if Stotts had that option, he'd use it over CJ at times. For 4.4 seasons now, Dame has been the only PG on the roster, and I think that's always been a big weakness. And of course, the Dame-centric defensive template that Memphis set has killed Portland in the playoffs every damn year since, in no small part because Portland has nobody besides Dame who can consistently run an offense against strong defensive resistance. If an opponent can shut down Dame they take out Portland's best scorer and the only guy who runs the offense. That's always worth the effort

so when you ask if it's the coach, I think first that Stotts has not had good tools in his toolbox to adjust away from all the one-on-one possessions that CJ brings to the floor. But a tool he does have is he controls the offense and the schemes and the rotations, and he could have developed better off-ball action after more than 4 years than he has. And the thing is that while CJ is a very clever ball-handler, prone to over-dribbling, he's not efficient in one-on-one because he's terrible at getting to the foul line. His iso-ball is featured in the offense to the overall detriment of the offense....IMO, Stotts could easily throttle that back and implement more accountability for selfish play

so yeah, I blame Stotts for some of this. But I blame Olshey too. For instance, if Portland had a backup PG like Rondo (just an example), I don't believe we'd see all this one-on-one bullshit. But Rondo is an actual PG. Napier and Curry aren't, neither is Simons, and for damn sure, Turner, Hezonja, and Bazemore aren't. And of course, CJ isn't. But that's who Sotts has been stuck with
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I have a hard limit on coaches who play shitty veterans over promising rookies on what amounts to a shitty team, so yeah, my opinion is pretty much that Stotts has turned to shit. As I have been boycotting I've been watching the boxscores and I have been waiting for Little to get real minutes. Little is producing nothing compared to what he was doing, but that steady diet of 11 minutes really seems to be helping him, right, Terry Shits?
 


top-10 offense? what is he basing this on? If it's offensive rating, Portland is tied for 10th with Phoenix so it seems like a bit questionable as a defense of the offense, so to speak. I'd also wonder what the impact of 2nd chance points has on offensive rating, Whiteside has been pretty good at that. In any event, if Portland is 10th in offensive rating which is simple points/100-possessions, they are also 16th in TS%, 20th in eFG%, 25th in FTr, 15th in FT/FGA, 18th in FG%, 25th in 2pfFG%, and 9th in 3ptFG%. So then, the notion that Portland has a top-10 in offense seems to need a little context. That may be more pace related, than efficiency related

certainly defense is a weak link in the equation, and it is half of the net rating where the Blazers are -1.4.
 
So much this! And from a coach no one knew about or would have named from the 'there is no one better out there' crowd.



Purely anecdotal, but having never run anything more than mad practice in basketball day aftere day, decided to enter a 10K because my roommate asked me too. Was leading everyone in the entire race at the halfway mark. This story does not end well....

....they had to peel me off the pavement at the finish line from being 'plastered' and I think amputees were passing me by the 6 mile mark.

I played basketball but our coaches incorporated cross country running into our preseason workout so I at least had some gauge between the differences in sport. I was terrible at long distance training, yet in sprints I would lead the pack. There's such a gulf of difference in the rest chance rate that one can optimally whiz around the court for a lot of minutes, but this will not necessarily translate into optimal long distance exertion. For me, they were like opposites almost. I've cramped from playing basketball for hours, but there's just no way I could've completed a 10 k without collapsing and because I had this figured out already from my HS days I don't think I would've fallen into your trap.
 
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