Hoops Habit: Lillard in 6th tier of NBA point guards

[Denny Crane]

use scalding hot water to get it out. It works every time.

Sulphuric acid.

 

[blue9]

Parker (even as great as he is) is a bit too high imo and both Rose and Rondo are too low.

Williams is probably too low as well. He must be taking into account injuries on a lot of these. But then he has Curry in 2nd tier and we know his history of injuries.

My thoughts exactly. No way does Rondo rank that low, unless you take into account the fact that he's currently coming off injury - and then if that's the case Curry can't be on tier two. Rondo and Williams are way too low. Westbrook, Parker, Wall, Conley are way too high. I've never been a fan of Rose, but he's probably ranked too low given who's ahead of him.

 

[HomerLovesKoolAid]

If they polled the NBA coaches and asked them which PG out of the top 5 tiers they would want on their team for the next 5 years, where do you think Lillard would rank? I think top 3.

•Tier 1 - Parker/Paul/Westbrook
•Tier 2 - Curry
•Tier 3 - Irving/Wall
•Tier 4 - Rose/Rondo
•Tier 5 - Conley
•Tier 6 - Holiday/Lawson/Lillard/Williams

 

[Wizard Mentor]

I agree with the TEAM USA coaching staff that Lillard should be ahead of Wall, Conley, Lawson, and Holiday right now. IMHO Lillard should be behind the Deron Williams of a couple of years ago, but ahead of the current incarnation. So, my random feelings (assuming everyone's healthy) are more something like

Tier 1 - Rose/Irving/Curry/Paul/Westbrook
Tier 2 - Rondo/Lillard/Lawson/Holiday
Tier 3 - Wall/Williams/probably another player or 2
Tier 4 - Don't care....

Link (Note: Link is to part 3 of PG analysis, which has links to parts 1 & 2)

Writer's (arbitrary) tiers:

• Tier 1 - Parker/Paul/Westbrook
• Tier 2 - Curry
• Tier 3 - Irving/Wall
• Tier 4 - Rose/Rondo
• Tier 5 - Conley
• Tier 6 - Holiday/Lawson/Lillard/Williams
• Tier 7 - Calderon/Miller/Nash
• Tier 8 - Teague/Vasquez/Bledsoe
• Tier 9 - Walker/Jennings/Dragic
• Tier 10 - Hill/Lin/Williams/Felton
• Tier 11 - Rubio
• Tier 12 - Lowry/Thomas
• Tier 13 - Hinrich/Collison/KryptoNate

Writer (Michael Badger, whoever that is) has detailed explanations for his PG rankings in the post.

Discuss.

 

[handiman]

If I were to modify the list, first I would alphabatize them within tiers. Otherwise, it might as well just be a ranked list. And I would shuffle them a bit:

Tier 1 - Parker/Paul/Rose/Westbrook
Tier 2 - Curry/Irving/Rondo/Williams
Tier 3 - Lillard/Wall
Tier 4 - Conley/Holiday/Lawson
Tier 5 - Nash
Tier 6+ - who cares?

My reasoning is: a) the Tier 1 guys are all MVP-caliber players and who's better is simply a matter of preference, b) the Tier 2 guys are equally tough to separate, and c), no one in their right mind would give up Lillard for any of those Tier 4+ guys. Anyone above him is open to debate, injuries and age notwithstanding. I'm tempted to put Wall in Tier 4, but he came on too strong last year to overlook.

 

[Denny Crane]

Why isn't Rondo a tier 1?

I think he's as elite a PG as anyone.

 

[blue9]

There is no way that Lillard is on Rondo's level. Rondo should be tier 1 if we're ignoring injuries. And certainly ahead of Rose, Irving, Curry, and Westbrook.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Are you fucking kidding me? This guy obviously has no idea what the fuck he is talking about putting Lillard as anything but the best PG in the history of the NBA. Obviously this is a rag and he has no credibility

Awe, sarcasm I know thee well. It would have been nice if you came out and said you like his methodology and that he has credibility. Then it would make more sense for you to criticize the critics. I'm afraid I'm on the critics and Lillard bandwagon here, for 2 reasons right off:

1) The Team USA coaches have weighed in on this, and they rank Lillard higher.
2) Using his offensive stats methodology JJ Hickson should be top 5 PF, which neither of us believe to be true.

 

[magnifier661]

Link (Note: Link is to part 3 of PG analysis, which has links to parts 1 & 2)

Writer's (arbitrary) tiers:

• Tier 1 - Parker/Paul/Westbrook
• Tier 2 - Curry
• Tier 3 - Irving/Wall
• Tier 4 - Rose/Rondo
• Tier 5 - Conley
• Tier 6 - Holiday/Lawson/Lillard/Williams
• Tier 7 - Calderon/Miller/Nash
• Tier 8 - Teague/Vasquez/Bledsoe
• Tier 9 - Walker/Jennings/Dragic
• Tier 10 - Hill/Lin/Williams/Felton
• Tier 11 - Rubio
• Tier 12 - Lowry/Thomas
• Tier 13 - Hinrich/Collison/KryptoNate

Writer (Michael Badger, whoever that is) has detailed explanations for his PG rankings in the post.

Discuss.

Right now, I would agree with his opinion. I think Lillard must earn more respect from the refs (getting to the line), develop a defensive game and develop a floater to go up in tiers.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

There is no way that Lillard is on Rondo's level. Rondo should be tier 1 if we're ignoring injuries. And certainly ahead of Rose, Irving, Curry, and Westbrook.

very possible. However, 2 things:

1) There's ignoring injuries and completely ignoring injuries. If we completely ignore injuries I still think Greg Oden is the best center in the NBA, but I wouldn't rank him there in any realistic scenario. Rondo's game is predicated on quickness and he's been out for a year. Honestly, I don't know the specifics of his injury and I don't know whether he's going to make a complete recovery or not. So, I dinged him just a little.

2) Just because 2 or more players are in the same tier, it doesn't mean that they have the same ability level. If that's the measure then one would abandon tiers and use a straight ranking. However, IMHO that would actually be less useful.

 

[magnifier661]

I think he put the numbers up last season out of necessity. He flat out won't have to this year. Of course he COULD, but won't need to.

I see him being top 5 in assists and the point difference down a bit. I'm looking at a 17/10 season; definitely good enough to get him in.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

A very good to a great point guard makes the players around him better, this is one of the few things that Lillard didn't do last season. It will be interesting if he can take his game to that level.

 

[mook]

One flaw I see in this list is that it doesn't factor in minutes played. Parker is certainly a Tier-1 player when he's in the game, but he only played 2100 minutes last year to Lillard's 3100. Tony Parker is not a very good PG in the 16 games he missed, or the 6 minutes a night he sat while Lillard played.

Rose played 0 minutes last year. Was he a more productive PG than Lillard?

Rondo played 1400 minutes. Was he really a more productive PG?

I think Lillard is ranked about right in terms of, "Who would I want to start the playoffs with today, assuming 100% healthy?" But by that standard Greg Oden is the second best center in the NBA.

If I had a shitty bench and was facing a grueling 82 game season, I'd put Lillard ahead of a lot of these guys in terms of who is going to get me the best winning % in the regular season. You have to be on the court to actually be useful, and none of these guys were on the court as much as Lillard last year, and it'll probably be true for many of them this year.

 

[magnifier661]

A very good to a great point guard makes the players around him better, this is one of the few things that Lillard didn't do last season. It will be interesting if he can take his game to that level.

I 100% agree. Repp'd

 

[illmatic99]

Only semi-issue I have with this that there are way too many tiers. These guys are all pretty close to each other in terms of talent and impact.

I'd break it up into:

1. CP/ Kyrie/ Rose/ Russ/ TP/ Curry
2. Deron/ Dame/ Wall/ Rondo
3. Holiday/ Conley/ Lawson/ etc etc

 

[OneLifeToLive]

I have no idea how these tiers were created or what goes into them and what the thinking is behind it. But many forget how good Rose was the year when he was in the running for MVP. When he is healthy, he is in teir 2 if not one.

 

[blue9]

very possible. However, 2 things:

1) There's ignoring injuries and completely ignoring injuries. ... Rondo's game is predicated on quickness and he's been out for a year. Honestly, I don't know the specifics of his injury and I don't know whether he's going to make a complete recovery or not. So, I dinged him just a little.

You dinged Rondo, yet ignored injuries when you put Rose, Curry, and Westbrook on Tier 1. Rondo's game is much less predicated on quickness/athleticism than any of Rose/Curry/Westbrook. If injuries weren't part of the game I'd rank Rondo as the #1 PG in the league without question. The past three seasons he's either lead the league in APG or been 0.2 behind Nash. You have to go back to 09/10 for his APG to be in single digits (at 9.8)! And all the while he's played excellent defense (Top 5 SPG past 3 years) and rebounded extremely well (Top 2 RPG past 3 years) - something only Westbrook can rival, and even then it's not much of a rivalry due to his "chucker" nature. Rondo's about as elite as you can get at the position. The only person who should be in the conversation with Rondo is CP3...who also has his share of injuries.

 

[blue9]

I have no idea how these tiers were created or what goes into them and what the thinking is behind it. But many forget how good Rose was the year when he was in the running for MVP. When he is healthy, he is in teir 2 if not one.

I suppose if you value scoring and don't value high-level passing in your PG then yes, Rose and Parker would be Tier 1. Hell, you can't argue with Parker's results! But I think you can attribute those results to the coach and system rather than the individual players. Parker is certainly a key to the system working, but if he weren't playing for Pops he'd be more in the middle of the pack of elite PGs rather than near the top.

 

[Pinwheel1]

A very good to a great point guard makes the players around him better, this is one of the few things that Lillard didn't do last season. It will be interesting if he can take his game to that level.

This is true. But.........it also depends on the type of offense the team runs. If you run an offense where the PG has the ball in his hands for 15+ seconds every time down the floor, then Damian may not make his teammates better as some others do..

But if the offense is predicated by movement and more than one player controls the ball, then Damian could very well be rated higher. We know he can flat out score and that is huge in "crunch time".

Again I point to the PG's in the triangle. Who would you rather have playing with MJ or Kobe, Lillard or Parker? I think an argument can be made for either.

Of course we do not run the triangle, but none-the-less we need to run an offense that best utilizes the strengths of Damian, LMA and Nic. I do not want to see our PG over dribbling, that is for sure.

 

[Natebishop3]

There is no way Tony Parker is still tier 1.

No.

Way.

 

[THE HCP]

Everybody always overlooks Parker. You HAVE to respect his game. Not flashy, but he is a great PG!

 

[Natebishop3]

Everybody always overlooks Parker. You HAVE to respect his game. Not flashy, but he is a great PG!

Oh I think he's a really good point guard. But do you think he's on the same level as Westbrook, Paul, Rose (when healthy)?

I just don't think so.

I'd put him in Tier 2 or maybe Tier 3.

 

[THE HCP]

Oh I think he's a really good point guard. But do you think he's on the same level as Westbrook, Paul, Rose (when healthy)?

I just don't think so.

I'd put him in Tier 2 or maybe Tier 3.

He's team first, the other guys aren't. Maybe it says alot about me, but I'd take the other guys first!

 

[dviss1]

I agree with the TEAM USA coaching staff that Lillard should be ahead of Wall, Conley, Lawson, and Holiday right now. IMHO Lillard should be behind the Deron Williams of a couple of years ago, but ahead of the current incarnation. So, my random feelings (assuming everyone's healthy) are more something like

Tier 1 - Rose/Irving/Curry/Paul/Westbrook
Tier 2 - Rondo/Lillard/Lawson/Holiday
Tier 3 - Wall/Williams/probably another player or 2
Tier 4 - Don't care....

How can one be a Tier 1 PG when only averaging 5.9 APG?

 

[dviss1]

Oh I think he's a really good point guard. But do you think he's on the same level as Westbrook, Paul, Rose (when healthy)?

I just don't think so.

I'd put him in Tier 2 or maybe Tier 3.

Tony Parker had MVP consideration last season. He is most CERTAINLY a Tier 1 guy. Especially shooting .522 from the field.

Edit: And had he been completely healthy in the last 3 games of the finals, the Spurs might have won.

 

[Denny Crane]

Oh I think he's a really good point guard. But do you think he's on the same level as Westbrook, Paul, Rose (when healthy)?

I just don't think so.

I'd put him in Tier 2 or maybe Tier 3.

20/8 with a 23 PER on a 58 win team.

 

[Natebishop3]

20/8 with a 23 PER on a 58 win team.

Again, I'm not saying he isn't a great point guard. I'm saying I don't think he's in the top 2-3.

 

[handiman]

Why isn't Rondo a tier 1?

I think he's as elite a PG as anyone.

He's too limited offensively. You have to carefully assemble the right team around him to cover up his weaknesses. That isn't the mark of a top tier guy.

Again, I'm not saying he isn't a great point guard. I'm saying I don't think he's in the top 2-3.

That's been Parker's rep his entire career, but somehow he always ends up being the best PG on the floor night in and night out. Dude flat out gets it done.

 

[Natebishop3]

He's too limited offensively. You have to carefully assemble the right team around him to cover up his weaknesses. That isn't the mark of a top tier guy.



That's been Parker's rep his entire career, but somehow he always ends up being the best PG on the floor night in and night out. Dude flat out gets it done.

Lillard pretty much schooled him the few times they faced each other.

 

[PapaG]

I have no idea how these tiers were created or what goes into them and what the thinking is behind it. But many forget how good Rose was the year when he was in the running for MVP. When he is healthy, he is in teir 2 if not one.

He not only was 'in the running', he won the 2010-11 MVP over Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, and Kevin Durant (top 5 in order).