Religion How secular family values stack up

[SlyPokerDog]

...

“Many nonreligious parents were more coherent and passionate about their ethical principles than some of the ‘religious' parents in our study,” Bengston told me. “The vast majority appeared to live goal-filled lives characterized by moral direction and sense of life having a purpose.”

...

My own ongoing research among secular Americans — as well as that of a handful of other social scientists who have only recently turned their gaze on secular culture — confirms that nonreligious family life is replete with its own sustaining moral values and enriching ethical precepts. Chief among those: rational problem solving, personal autonomy, independence of thought, avoidance of corporal punishment, a spirit of “questioning everything” and, far above all, empathy.

...

The results of such secular child-rearing are encouraging. Studies have found that secular teenagers are far less likely to care what the “cool kids” think, or express a need to fit in with them, than their religious peers. When these teens mature into “godless” adults, they exhibit less racism than their religious counterparts,

...

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...-secular-parenting-20150115-story.html#page=1

 

[MARIS61]

Good people don't need mythical super-beings to excuse their behavior.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Good people don't need mythical super-beings to excuse their behavior.

Neither do bad people.

 

[HailBlazers]

Good parenting results in good kids, shocker.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

...

“Many nonreligious parents were more coherent and passionate about their ethical principles than some of the ‘religious' parents in our study."

I love this quote. Really, if you think about this quote, it's so vague it's useless.

The Blazers win more often than they lose to bad teams. Doesn't tell you whether or not the Blazers are otherwise good (or bad).

 

[speeds]

Yeah but the question I have to ask is where is your moral barometer?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[BrianFromWA]

So are the prisons filled with God-fearing Bible Thumpers? Whack-y Christian gang violence is rampant? People who self-select Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior running the drug cartels? Incidences of single-parent families and deadbeat parents higher in regular church attendees? Higher rate of IRS fraud in those who tithe faithfully?

I'm positive that you can find anecdotal bad people in every church, or people who are hypocritical in confessing that they're "religious" yet pay no attention or heed to the creeds of their religion. In fact, I can give plenty of examples. It's not a Christian thing--I saw plenty of "good" Muslims and plenty of those who used Thursday night (Friday's the holy day) as an excuse for debauchery. There's a reason that "C and E Cathlolicism" is a thing. (Christmas and Easter only, for those unaware). How many of the "religious" people in those studies contribute to charity according to their particular scripture (whether tithing, or zakat)?

As for the opening statement:
"The vast majority appeared to live goal-filled lives characterized by moral direction and sense of life having a purpose.” I have no doubt that a non-religious person can have a live of moral direction and a sense of purpose. But you will have to convince me that a "vast majority" of people do just about anything characterized in something soft like "moral" or "having a purpose". Did the drug dealer's "to get paid, yo!" count as a "purpose-filled life"? Does the high school dropouts life "have a sense of purpose?" Did the tax cheat have a defined "moral direction?"

Anyway, in the grand scheme it doesn't matter, other than propaganda. If you think atheists suck, you can point to someone's "research" that confirms it. If you think Christians are whack-y, you can find anecdotes and studies to confirm it. I'll just say that it's kind of unique among the religious folk that people aren't inherently good. Now, some may say good parenting can overcome that, or a system of laws that curtails incidences of violence, or maybe you think that because Christ died for you you'll end up ok someday.

 

[Further]

It's all individual. I consider myself ethical but others might not cause I drink, smoke pot, dance, eat swine, have premarital sex, have mixed thread clothing and occasionally argue with my parents. So judging ones moral compass is a difficult thing to do. I guarantee that most suicide bombers consider themselves to be highly moral.

The difference between the religions and nonreligious ethically speaking, is just that the religious use their sacred books, church officials and congregation to guide their moral absolutes. The nonreligious have to try and think through their issues irrespective of doctrine. Either avenue may lead to assholes or saints, but the act of thinking through each issue unattached to religious baggage I think may lead to a slightly increased percentage of nonreligious following through on what they would consider ethical.

 

[crowTrobot]

Morality is a vague artificial concept used to variably describe some combination of utility of behavior and subjective desires/evolved feelings. Not sure what the article is suggesting secular values actually stack up against.

 

[MarAzul]

Good people don't need super-beings.

A little help for you Maris. Of course they do! There are some things a mortal man is not qualified to do and there is no point in debating the issue. God has that duty. I am sure you don't want anyone telling what your rights are anymore than I do.
Then we have the problem of the atheist just never stepping up! The Supreme Court put the 10 Commandment on their wall. The 10 handed down from God, no atheist ever got around to writing a superior set.

 

[speeds]

 

[crowTrobot]

A little help for you Maris. Of course they do! There are some things a mortal man is not qualified to do and there is no point in debating the issue. God has that duty. I am sure you don't want anyone telling what your rights are anymore than I do.
Then we have the problem of the atheist just never stepping up! The Supreme Court put the 10 Commandment on their wall. The 10 handed down from God, no atheist ever got around to writing a superior set.

Give me a break. Any half-way intelligent eight-year-old could write a superior set. The first 4 Commandments aren't even moral concepts and would actually be opposed by the Supreme Court because they invalidate freedom of religion. The 10th effectively endorses Slavery.

 

[MarAzul]

George is great but he struggles too hard.

"Atheist George Carlin (who passed into eternity in 2008) said, "But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe..."

All you got to do George is ask yourself, who did it? Sure as hell none of these dummies about can create anything let alone all of us. Don't worry too much about him keeping a close eye on things. Some of these guys are doing shit, even he don't want a see.

 

[MarAzul]

Give me a break. Any half-way intelligent eight-year-old could write a superior set. The first 4 Commandments aren't even moral concepts and would actually be opposed by the Supreme Court because they invalidate freedom of religion. The 10th effectively endorses Slavery.

Well take it up with God! I didn't write um. An your set ain't on the wall.

 

[magnifier661]

Give me a break. Any half-way intelligent eight-year-old could write a superior set. The first 4 Commandments aren't even moral concepts and would actually be opposed by the Supreme Court because they invalidate freedom of religion. The 10th effectively endorses Slavery.

You endorse slavery of other animals no? Just sayin'

I would think an evolved being like yourself would be equally appalled that we use animals to do our work for us. Humanity is so inhuman!

 

[SlyPokerDog]

A little help for you Maris. Of course they do! There are some things a mortal man is not qualified to do and there is no point in debating the issue. God has that duty. I am sure you don't want anyone telling what your rights are anymore than I do.
Then we have the problem of the atheist just never stepping up! The Supreme Court put the 10 Commandment on their wall. The 10 handed down from God, no atheist ever got around to writing a superior set.

Strange how molesting/raping children didn't make the list.

 

[MarAzul]

Strange how molesting/raping children didn't make the list.

I suspect God never thought of that shit. Men did.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I suspect God never thought of that shit. Men did.

So god thought about and got upset over false idols but not rape?

 

[MarAzul]

Dun no Sly! But I will go along with it if you wish to make and addition. Just tell um MarAzul sent you and see how it goes.

 

[Further]

Commandments 1,2,3,4 and 10 I have zero respect for. The others are generally good to follow. So since I'm an optimist and see the glass as half full, I say the Ten Commandments got it half right.

 

[crowTrobot]

An your set ain't on the wall.

that sounds painful

 

[MarAzul]

that sounds painful

Ha! We agree.

 

[BrianFromWA]

may not be the right place to put this, but the difference between "religion" (even "Christian" religion) and the beliefs of many who choose to live the Gospel, from someone who spends way more of his time thinking about this than I do.

RELIGION: I obey-therefore I’m accepted.
THE GOSPEL: I’m accepted-therefore I obey.
RELIGION: Motivation is based on fear and insecurity.
THE GOSPEL: Motivation is based on grateful joy.
RELIGION: I obey God in order to get things from God.
THE GOSPEL: I obey God to get to God-to delight and resemble Him.
RELIGION: When circumstances in my life go wrong, I am angry at God or my self, since I believe, like Job’s friends that anyone who is good deserves a comfortable life.
THE GOSPEL: When circumstances in my life go wrong, I struggle but I know all my punishment fell on Jesus and that while he may allow this for my training, he will exercise his Fatherly love within my trial.
RELIGION: When I am criticized I am furious or devastated because it is critical that I think of myself as a ‘good person’. Threats to that self-image must be destroyed at all costs.
THE GOSPEL: When I am criticized I struggle, but it is not critical for me to think of myself as a ‘good person.’ My identity is not built on my record or my performance but on God’s love for me in Christ. I can take criticism.
RELIGION: My prayer life consists largely of petition and it only heats up when I am in a time of need. My main purpose in prayer is control of the environment.
THE GOSPEL: My prayer life consists of generous stretches of praise and adoration. My main purpose is fellowship with Him.
RELIGION: My self-view swings between two poles. If and when I am living up to my standards, I feel confident, but then I am prone to be proud and unsympathetic to failing people. If and when I am not living up to standards, I feel insecure and inadequate. I’m not confident. I feel like a failure.
THE GOSPEL: My self-view is not based on a view of my self as a moral achiever. In Christ I am “simul iustus et peccator”—simultaneously sinful and yet accepted in Christ. I am so bad he had to die for me and I am so loved he was glad to die for me. This leads me to deeper and deeper humility and confidence at the same time. Neither swaggering nor sniveling.
RELIGION: My identity and self-worth are based mainly on how hard I work. Or how moral I am, and so I must look down on those I perceive as lazy or immoral. I disdain and feel superior to “the other.”
THE GOSPEL: My identity and self-worth are centered on the one who died for His enemies, who was excluded from the city for me. I am saved by sheer grace. So I can’t look down on those who believe or practice something different from me. Only by grace I am what I am. I’ve no inner need to win arguments.
RELIGION: Since I look to my own pedigree or performance for my spiritual acceptability, my heart manufactures idols. It may be my talents, my moral record, my personal discipline, my social status, etc. I absolutely have to have them so they serve as my main hope, meaning, happiness, security, and significance, whatever I may say I believe about God.
THE GOSPEL: I have many good things in my life—family, work, spiritual disciplines, etc. But none of these good things are ultimate things to me. None of them are things I absolutely have to have, so there is a limit to how much anxiety, bitterness, and despondency they can inflict on me when they are threatened and lost.
- Tim Keller

 

[magnifier661]

may not be the right place to put this, but the difference between "religion" (even "Christian" religion) and the beliefs of many who choose to live the Gospel, from someone who spends way more of his time thinking about this than I do.

That was absolutely awesome! I wish I could mega like this!

 

[crowTrobot]

RELIGION: I obey-therefore I’m accepted.
THE GOSPEL: I’m accepted-therefore I obey.

Pretty hard to separate the good news of salvation from the small print. The latter may be motivational be the former certainly is the primary message of the Bible.

 

[crowTrobot]

You endorse slavery of other animals no? Just sayin'

I don't claim to have much moral clarity on human relationship with animals, and even if I did I obviously don't have the authority to do much about it.

On the other hand Christians trivially cite equality of human rights as a God-given objective moral principal, even though the opposite was true in the OT.

 

[magnifier661]

I don't claim to have much moral clarity on human relationship with animals, and even if I did I obviously don't have the authority to do much about it.

On the other hand Christians trivially cite equality of human rights as a God-given objective moral principal, even though the opposite was true in the OT.

Meh I've seen you debate the morality of government actions, so this quote is pretty much bullshit. The fact you claim you aren't the authority, yet you use authority to base morality views it pretty contradicting don't you think?

As a naturalist, all creatures have just the same right as others. The chance ours developed to be most advanced doesn't take away that we use this advancement to enslave other animals for food or work. And claiming the hypocrisy of the Bible in this term is claiming you are just as much a hypocrite.

 

[crowTrobot]

Meh I've seen you debate the morality of government actions, so this quote is pretty much bullshit. The fact you claim you aren't the authority, yet you use authority to base morality views it pretty contradicting don't you think?

As a naturalist, all creatures have just the same right as others. The chance ours developed to be most advanced doesn't take away that we use this advancement to enslave other animals for food or work. And claiming the hypocrisy of the Bible in this term is claiming you are just as much a hypocrite.

You are confusing me with someone else. I don't believe morality exists and I think everyone's take on it is nothing more than opinion. All I was doing was pointing out the Supreme Court does not follow or endorse the 10 Commandments.

Also you're being an asshole to me again for no reason.

 

[magnifier661]

You are confusing me with someone else. I don't believe morality exists and I think everyone's take on it is nothing more than opinion. All I was doing was pointing out the Supreme Court does not follow or endorse the 10 Commandments.

Also you're being an asshole to me again for no reason.

So you haven't debated government actions?