Hunting

[Mamba]

What is wrong with hunting?

Honestly, it's more than just shooting an animal. Most of the time, you go in a camp. It's fun, as people say, it's "guy time." It's a family tradition for me and I love it. My grandpa's not getting any younger, so I go.

It also teaches patience. You think you can move around in the blind and get a kill? Hell no. Deer are some of the smartest animals, you have to be silent and still. You have to be steady with your shot. If you don't do any of this, all you'll see is a tail running away.

Hunting also preserves life. Since hunting was legalized, the population of hunted game has grown substantially. It protects hunted game from overpopulation. If it didn't, hunted game would starve to death, die of diseases. Hunting is a necessity in nature. It regulates it.

State economies survive off of hunting, also. One of Michigan's biggest assets is Deer season. Most of the money brought in during deer season is allocated to wildlife funds.

There is nothing wrong with eating meat or hunting, there is something wrong with verbally crucifying those that do. You live your life how you want to, meat eaters live their lives. Meat has been eaten for centuries and it will always be like that. PETA and all the other animal activists groups will never be succesful.

As a matter of fact, I'm a part of PETA. I support them 100%. Why? I love People Eating Tasty Animals.

 

[Bahir]

About hunting: it's probably a cleaner kill to shoot them than to do what they did in the video(provided that your aim is good (although I would guess that most kills by hunters are not killing hits, at least not if the animal is moving)), but IMO, hunting should only be done if you, or someone else, intends to eat the animal. Saying that it's a sport is fallacious, since sport implies that there is some sort of competition, and, at least in my opinion, that the odds are even between the contestants. The only challenge I see with hunting is dragging your ass off into the woods at five in the morning, and the odds of you getting even a scratch from your competitor are slim to none. Just go to a shooting range where they have moving targets if you feel that stationary ones are too easy to hit.

Furthermore, those who claim that they kill animals to "preserve the natural balance" are completely wrong. Nature can take care of that. Humans haven't done anything good for the environment exept if you count the attempts to corrects mankinds own mistakes.

 

[NTC]

I have nothing against hunting, my Grandad has been hunting for over 50 years, he is/was one of the top hunters in New Zealand, and I've grown up around it. There is a difference between hunting and what this video depicted as senseless slaughter. Most of the time (at least in my Grandad and Uncles case) hunting is used as a means to control pests, such as wild boar, possum and deer who kill livestock/wildlife and ruin the environment. What I dont agree with is people (and I get the feeling this is mainly the case in the US) who just go out hunting just to kill somthing.

 

[Shapecity]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bahir:</div><div class="quote_post">Furthermore, those who claim that they kill animals to "preserve the natural balance" are completely wrong. Nature can take care of that. Humans haven't done anything good for the environment exept if you count the attempts to corrects mankinds own mistakes.</div>

I disagree Bahir. Humans have to preserve the natural balance, because they made it unnatural to begin with. There is less wide open land for animals to roam around, so an area where deers can feed gets overpopulated. Because there is less land there are less of nature's predators around to thin out the deer population, so humans have to step in and play that role.

M Two One, I noticed in France the meat is not as tender like the livestock in the US. This is a result of the livestock being able to live longer and exercise, it makes the meat a little tougher and more lean.

 

[Mamba]

<div class="quote_poster">Bahir Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">About hunting: it's probably a cleaner kill to shoot them than to do what they did in the video(provided that your aim is good (although I would guess that most kills by hunters are not killing hits, at least not if the animal is moving)), but IMO, hunting should only be done if you, or someone else, intends to eat the animal. Saying that it's a sport is fallacious, since sport implies that there is some sort of competition, and, at least in my opinion, that the odds are even between the contestants. The only challenge I see with hunting is dragging your ass off into the woods at five in the morning, and the odds of you getting even a scratch from your competitor are slim to none. Just go to a shooting range where they have moving targets if you feel that stationary ones are too easy to hit.

Furthermore, those who claim that they kill animals to "preserve the natural balance" are completely wrong. Nature can take care of that. Humans haven't done anything good for the environment exept if you count the attempts to corrects mankinds own mistakes.</div>

They aren't wrong. Hunting regulates nature, plain and simple. It controls animal population so that there aren't more animals dying of diseases, hunger, and not having any shelter.

I do agree, hunting just to kill is disgusting.

Why can't it be considered a sport? It's on sports channels every Saturday morning, it's on ESPN every weekend morning. They have competitions who can bag the biggest buck (male deer) every day of the season in Michigan. It's called a buck poll. In a sense, there is a competition between hunters, but it's respectful. Most hunters do eat what they kill, I eat what I kill, and if most of your shots aren't kill shots, you shouldn't be hunting.

Just so you know, even if you do get a clean kill shot, the likely hood of the animal still being able to run is very high. They get bolts of adrenaline that will carry them, trust me, I know. I shot a deer (this was my first deer, rather bad shot, kind of embarrassed about it) in the gut once, a gut shot, and the animal ran 100 yards into the woods. Granted, it was a very bad shot because it was my first time ever shooting a deer, even if I would've hit that deer in the lungs the chances of it taking off and running are near 100%.

There was a GREAT article in Newsweek about a month back about hunting, I'm trying to find it up online right now.

 

[Mamba]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15892909/site/newsweek/page/2/

 

[Bahir]

(someone should move page 4 in this thread, and all other posts about hunting, to a new thread about hunting)

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I disagree Bahir. Humans have to preserve the natural balance, because they made it unnatural to begin with. There is less wide open land for animals to roam around, so an area where deers can feed gets overpopulated. Because there is less land there are less of nature's predators around to thin out the deer population, so humans have to step in and play that role.</div>

But that's the thing, nature knows how to do that better. It might take a few generations, but eventually the population will adapt to the environment. When humans try to take on the role of an "equalizer", it usually leads to consequenses that go way beyond what was initially intended. There are countless examples of what can go wrong when humans interfere with natures ways. If you alter the population of one group of animals or plants, other animals and plants in the same ecosystem will be greatly affected by it. Look at China during the Mao era, they killed off certain birds because they thought that they ate the plants on the farmers fields. The result? The insects, who were the real perpetrators, multiplied greatly, and as a result, the country starved (although they couldn't tell Mao that, but that's another story). Look at Australia.

 

[Shapecity]

<div class="quote_poster">Bahir Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">(someone should move page 4 in this thread, and all other posts about hunting, to a new thread about hunting)



But that's the thing, nature knows how to do that better. It might take a few generations, but eventually the population will adapt to the environment. When humans try to take on the role of an "equalizer", it usually leads to consequenses that go way beyond what was initially intended. There are countless examples of what can go wrong when humans interfere with natures ways. If you alter the population of one group of animals or plants, other animals and plants in the same ecosystem will be greatly affected by it. Look at China during the Mao era, they killed off certain birds because they thought that they ate the plants on the farmers fields. The result? The insects, who were the real perpetrators, multiplied greatly, and as a result, the country starved (although they couldn't tell Mao that, but that's another story). Look at Australia.</div>

Humans are part of nature, so there is a place for us in the equation. No one is talking about wiping out an entire species like they did in your example.

If a deer is going to die because of starvation, then what's the difference if that deer is hunted by a human?

 

[Schaddy]

I have no problem with hunting in general; the thing I don't like is Joe Redneck sitting in a 20 foot tree with salt and deer piss on the roots waiting for Bambi to walk by so he can blast a hole the size of a VW Bug in it with his way-too-big gun. Hunting should be a sporting event, where the animal has some sort of chance. If hunters track what they kill, don't use extra advantages, and only take what they need, I have no issue. I've gone hunting before, but it was a pretty unsavory use of my time in most cases. Hunting is just like anything, though. If you use common sense and are responsible, I see no harm. But like most things in life, there are always idiots who have to take things too far and/or give others a bad name.

 

[Bahir]

<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Humans are part of nature, so there is a place for us in the equation. No one is talking about wiping out an entire species like they did in your example.

If a deer is going to die because of starvation, then what's the difference if that deer is hunted by a human?</div>

By killing an animal so that "there won't be too many of them", you are shifting the balance. If you let nature decide, the numbers of a specific animal will be as many as the ecosystem can support at that time. By killing many animals at a specific period of time (like deer season, or here in Sweden, moose season), you are destroying the balance. For example, predators may live of the animal you kill. If the predator lives solely of the animal you kill, it might become in danger of being extinct. If it lives off other animals as well, it would need to compensate for the food lost from the type of animal killed by humans by eating more of the other animals on "its menu", shifting their natural order. The same could happen to plants. For example, if hunters kill to many of a herbivorous animal, perhaps an animal that eat certain weeds or other type of plants that easily take over other plants' positions, the weed or plant would be able to do just that, resulting in further consequences to other animals and plants.

 

[Shapecity]

Bahir, you're completely taking out humans from the equation. How do you know nature doesn't intend for deer to be hunted by humans during a specific time of the year?

If it's in our human nature to want to hunt than that's part of the cycle and nature will adapt for it.

 

[Mamba]

<div class="quote_poster">Schaddy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I have no problem with hunting in general; the thing I don't like is Joe Redneck sitting in a 20 foot tree with salt and deer piss on the roots waiting for Bambi to walk by so he can blast a hole the size of a VW Bug in it with his way-too-big gun. Hunting should be a sporting event, where the animal has some sort of chance. If hunters track what they kill, don't use extra advantages, and only take what they need, I have no issue. I've gone hunting before, but it was a pretty unsavory use of my time in most cases. Hunting is just like anything, though. If you use common sense and are responsible, I see no harm. But like most things in life, there are always idiots who have to take things too far and/or give others a bad name.</div>

I agree. Baiting (what you're describing) is completely nonsense. In Michigan, it's illegal. However, hunters still bait. I personally don't, because hunting is a sport of patience and self-discipline. If you can keep yourself together in up to 8 degree weather with a wind chill of -15 from 5 AM until 12 PM and then again from 2 PM to 6 PM, you can get yourself through most any mental battle. That is one of the aspects I love most about hunting.

As for being up in the air, I don't know if you have a problem with that. Last year was the first year I hunted in a blind in the air and I don't have a problem with it. Deer are smart animals, they're going to know that something unnatural is there.

 

[phunDamentalz]

I'm against hunting. Cock-fighting. Bull-fighting. Whatever, it's all the same. Why would you hunt if not to prove your dominance over something completely helpless? Why would you feel the need to do that if not some kind of insecurity about your own manhood? I don't get it. There's a reason why most of the "gun experts" in America were kids that were picked on at school. you don't have to kill things to be a man.

Having said that I eat meat and fish and all the rest and those guys don't exactly get killed humanely so it's a fine line. Unless you're going to be a complete vegan there is some hypocrisy going on and I include myself in that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I do agree, hunting just to kill is disgusting.</div>the end result is the same so it doesn't matter what the intent is really.

 

[Mamba]

<div class="quote_poster">Bahir Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">By killing an animal so that "there won't be too many of them", you are shifting the balance. If you let nature decide, the numbers of a specific animal will be as many as the ecosystem can support at that time. By killing many animals at a specific period of time (like deer season, or here in Sweden, moose season), you are destroying the balance. For example, predators may live of the animal you kill. If the predator lives solely of the animal you kill, it might become in danger of being extinct. If it lives off other animals as well, it would need to compensate for the food lost from the type of animal killed by humans by eating more of the other animals on "its menu", shifting their natural order. The same could happen to plants. For example, if hunters kill to many of a herbivorous animal, perhaps an animal that eat certain weeds or other type of plants that easily take over other plants' positions, the weed or plant would be able to do just that, resulting in further consequences to other animals and plants.</div>

So are you saying you would rather see an animal die from starvation, diseases, and lack of shelter than hunting? You're logic is somewhat flawed, as natures way of taking care of balance can be severely long and painstaking compared to a bullet in the kill zone.

Hunting is a way of life, it's been around for centuries. Some state economies depend on hunting.

One form of hunting I am completely against is controlled hunting. Paid hunts, that's pathetic. If you're a physically fit person, there is no reason why you can't go out into the woods and be patient. You shouldn't have to pay someone up to $5,000 so they can put a 14 point buck in front of you. That's not hunting, that's legalized animal torture. That is inhumane, that's weak, that's pathetic.

 

[Mamba]

<div class="quote_poster">phunDamentalz Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm against hunting. Cock-fighting. Bull-fighting. Whatever, it's all the same. Why would you hunt if not to prove your dominance over something completely helpless? Why would you feel the need to do that if not some kind of insecurity about your own manhood? I don't get it. There's a reason why most of the "gun experts" in America were kids that were picked on at school. you don't have to kill things to be a man..</div>

Is that a joke? You become less of a man because you hunt? It's a pasttime, it's a traditon, it strengthen's family values and connections. These animals aren't "completely" helpless. They're smarter than you're average human, they're senses are top notch. They know that something is unnatural during hunting season, they're more cautious. Hunting is a skill that not all have. Keeping myself calm with a buck in my sights is one of the hardest things I've ever done. It's not easy. You get an adrenaline rush and everything moves 20x faster. Hunting has nothing to do with ones' insecurities about their manhood, this isn't rape we're talking about.

 

[B.e.]

Myself I would never hunt animals, I just don't have the heart to shoot a harmless aninal like a deer or something. But its acceptable if your going to eat the animal, I don't think its right killing an animal just for fur or for a rug or to hang up on your wall.

 

[phunDamentalz]

<div class="quote_poster">TheBlackMamba Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Is that a joke? You become less of a man because you hunt? It's a pasttime, it's a traditon, it strengthen's family values and connections. These animals aren't "completely" helpless. They're smarter than you're average human, they're senses are top notch. They know that something is unnatural during hunting season, they're more cautious. Hunting is a skill that not all have. Keeping myself calm with a buck in my sights is one of the hardest things I've ever done. It's not easy. You get an adrenaline rush and everything moves 20x faster. Hunting has nothing to do with ones' insecurities about their manhood, this isn't rape we're talking about.</div>they might be smart, but there's little danger of them shooting you, now is there? it definitely sounds challenging and no doubt entertaining, but personally I would feel bad about causing some cruelty as part of my entertainment.

 

[Mamba]

I wouldn't call it entertainment. I don't get entertained by watching them die. I get my entertainment from the actual camp. It's fun, the hunting is the challenging part. I was brought up, raised, and believe that an animal that you kill is a gift and you should be thankful for that. Now, I know not every hunter thinks that, but they should. There should be respect for the animal.

 

[hustler]

I'm a pro hunter, I use only Bow and Arrow.

 

[phunDamentalz]

<div class="quote_poster">hustler Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm a pro hunter, I use only Bow and Arrow.</div>

I didn't know hunting was a professional sport.

 

[Karma]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
These animals aren't "completely" helpless. They're smarter than you're average human, they're senses are top notch. They know that something is unnatural during hunting season, they're more cautious
</div>

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
they might be smart, but there's little danger of them shooting you, now is there?
</div>

To put what phun said into perspective; hunters go for deers and other animals that can't really fight back and can do nothing but run. This is why hunters don't usually challenge animals that have a chance to kill them as well, such as lions and tigers. So, in a way, the animals that ARE hunted are pretty much helpless because if their senses fail them even for a second, they will suddenly die in the blink of an eye. Wheras (as I've seen in a video), a lion won't die until 3 or 4 or even 5 shots are pumped into it. A lion is a animal that is not "completely" helpless...if the animal cannot fight the hunter back, then it IS completely helpless.

I'm against hunting animals for sport or for fun. I would understand if it was a necessity to kill them in order to get food for survival but people kill them to hang their heads up on thier cottage wall, which is totally ridiculous.

 

[Mamba]

People hunt Lion all the time in Africa, just so you know.

 

[deception]

hey the black mamba, are u planning on any hunting excursions with your vice president? personally, i think gloating over killing animals is barbaric and should be treated as a crime. furthermore, its cruel on so many levels: (1) the animal experiences excruciating amounts of pain (i don't care about your accuracy) as a consequence of your willful act (2) food is scarce on many parts of the world, hunting for just the heck of it mocks those without (3) hunting related casualties (see the dude your vice president tried to murder) (4) more guns= more crime (i.e. columbine to gang warfare in south central)

those were some random points i thought up, i'm sure i can think of more but i strongly encourage u to think twice the next time u consider hunting.

 

[Karma]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
(3) hunting related casualties (see the dude your vice president tried to murder)
</div>

Sorry to veer off topic, but that reminds me of the Daily show. That segment was brilliantly covered, and is perhaps one of the funniest DS skits ever.

"We're live at the scene where the vice-president of the United states SHOT A 78 YEAR OLD MAN IN THE FACE".

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
People hunt Lion all the time in Africa, just so you know.
</div>

Actually, I didn't know that, but I was reffering to lions because they can actually fight back and shouldn't be considered helpless. The animals that are often hunted in the States (Deer, birds) can't really attack the hunters back now can they? Therefore, they are technically helpless, despite what you say about thier senses.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
(1) the animal experiences excruciating amounts of pain (i don't care about your accuracy) as a consequence of your willful act
</div>

To add to that, not all hunters are accurate all the time, and it might take 2 or 3 shots to kill an animal. Therefore, the animal continously suffers before it is finally dead.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Hunting is a way of life, it's been around for centuries. Some state economies depend on hunting.
</div>

Natural animal-to-animal hunting is a "way of life". Humans using man-made powerful weapons to bring down animals for no other reason then to gloat or hang up on thier walls is not the "way of life". Just because something has been around for centuries does not mean it should be honored. Disrespect towards women and any other race aside from whites was around for centuries, you don't see the world still following that tradition, correct? As for state economies being dependent on hunting, I'm sure there are alternate ways to generate profit than just being dependent on a bunch of hunters killing innocent deer (and even worse, birds) and then hanging thier heads on a wall.

 

[Mamba]

<div class="quote_poster">deception Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">hey the black mamba, are u planning on any hunting excursions with your vice president? personally, i think gloating over killing animals is barbaric and should be treated as a crime. furthermore, its cruel on so many levels: (1) the animal experiences excruciating amounts of pain (i don't care about your accuracy) as a consequence of your willful act (2) food is scarce on many parts of the world, hunting for just the heck of it mocks those without (3) hunting related casualties (see the dude your vice president tried to murder) (4) more guns= more crime (i.e. columbine to gang warfare in south central)

those were some random points i thought up, i'm sure i can think of more but i strongly encourage u to think twice the next time u consider hunting.</div>

1 - Are you that animal? Do you know how excruciating the pain is?
2 - Honestly, am I supposed to give a damn? The same can be said for you. Stop buying vegetables, it's rubbing it in their faces because you can afford it.
3 - That was the stupidest thing I've seen you post. You're a really smart dude, I didn't expect such trash from you. Not every hunter is an idiot like him. You just generalized a good portion of the population with one idiotic statement.
4 - Idiots who don't think straight = more crime. If gun laws were more strict, they wouldn't go away. A black market would start (think when alcohol was banned). People will start finding more brutal ways of killing people, as well. I'd rather be shot than stabbed to death.

Why should I think twice about hunting next time I go in a couple of weekends?

 

[Mamba]

<div class="quote_poster">Karma Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Actually, I didn't know that, but I was reffering to lions because they can actually fight back and shouldn't be considered helpless. The animals that are often hunted in the States (Deer, birds) can't really attack the hunters back now can they? Therefore, they are technically helpless, despite what you say about thier senses. </div>

Lions get shot with much, much more powerful rifles, I honestly would take a deers sense over a lions strength when it comes to hunting.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">To add to that, not all hunters are accurate all the time, and it might take 2 or 3 shots to kill an animal. Therefore, the animal continously suffers before it is finally dead.</div>

That is a very valid point, but more often than not, the first shot is the kill shot. If you have to shoot more than twice, you're shooting at nothing and you're not going to hit your target.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Natural animal-to-animal hunting is a "way of life". Humans using man-made powerful weapons to bring down animals for no other reason then to gloat or hang up on thier walls is not the "way of life". Just because something has been around for centuries does not mean it should be honored. Disrespect towards women and any other race aside from whites was around for centuries, you don't see the world still following that tradition, correct? As for state economies being dependent on hunting, I'm sure there are alternate ways to generate profit than just being dependent on a bunch of hunters killing innocent deer (and even worse, birds) and then hanging thier heads on a wall.</div>

Actually, Michigan's economy is in the gutter right now. It's unemployement rate is about 7% when the national average is about 4%, it thrives off of hunting income. A good portion of the money brought in from hunters is turned around and used on wildlife, as well.

 

[phunDamentalz]

<div class="quote_poster">TheBlackMamba Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">
2 - Honestly, am I supposed to give a damn? The same can be said for you. Stop buying vegetables, it's rubbing it in their faces because you can afford it.
</div>
deception was pretty aggressive with his tone but that is really an ignorant thing to say man 'am i supposed to give a damn'? yes, you are as a matter of fact. you're making me bust out the starving baby photo.

still feel the same way?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">4 - Idiots who don't think straight = more crime. If gun laws were more strict, they wouldn't go away. A black market would start (think when alcohol was banned). People will start finding more brutal ways of killing people, as well. I'd rather be shot than stabbed to death.</div>this is total BS. in countries where guns are much harder to come by, guess what? Their murder rates are a fraction of the U.S. Crimes of passion, heat of the moment crimes (which is 90% of murders) when there is a gun around almost always end in a fatality. No gun? You might get stabbed MAYBE if the person's really nuts, and then you will most likely be fine. Guns are a HUGE catalyst for violence just by their existence alone.

 

[deception]

<div class="quote_poster">TheBlackMamba Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">1 - Are you that animal? Do you know how excruciating the pain is?
2 - Honestly, am I supposed to give a damn? The same can be said for you. Stop buying vegetables, it's rubbing it in their faces because you can afford it.
3 - That was the stupidest thing I've seen you post. You're a really smart dude, I didn't expect such trash from you. Not every hunter is an idiot like him. You just generalized a good portion of the population with one idiotic statement.
4 - Idiots who don't think straight = more crime. If gun laws were more strict, they wouldn't go away. A black market would start (think when alcohol was banned). People will start finding more brutal ways of killing people, as well. I'd rather be shot than stabbed to death.

Why should I think twice about hunting next time I go in a couple of weekends?</div>

1) logic tells me animals endure excruciating amounts of pain
2) animals go extinct, vegetables don't
3) i'm surprised u tried to refute this point cause i understand its a concern even amongst the hunting community cause minors are legally o.k. to hunt
4) more guns= increases the likelihood that guns will end of up in the hands of deranged individuals (e.g. columbine killers) or street criminals

-u should think twice because of all of the above points

 

[Mamba]

Yes, I was ignorant and I do care, but c'mon. Am I supposed to feel bad that I can hunt when other people can't afford food? His logic was very flawed by saying that, because it's the same as him buying vegetables. He can afford them, maybe he should stop spending them.

<div class="quote_poster">deception Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">1) logic tells me animals endure excruciating amounts of pain
2) animals go extinct, vegetables don't
3) i'm surprised u tried to refute this point cause i understand its a concern even amongst the hunting community cause minors are legally o.k. to hunt
4) more guns= increases the likelihood that guns will end of up in the hands of deranged individuals (e.g. columbine killers) or street criminals

-u should think twice because of all of the above points

</div>

1 - Logic also says that animals endure excruciating amounts of pain from starving, lack of shelter, disease, and predators. Hunting limits all of that.
2 - An animal has never gone extinct from hunting in the United States, there are laws that do control it, you know. In fact the animal population has increased among white tail deer since hunting was legalized.
3 - Yes minors are legal to hunt, the age is 12 in Michigan. They also have to pass a hunter's safety course, which isn't exactly easy.
4 - Less guns = more stabbings, beatings, black market trade, etc.

Think twice about buying vegetables, think twice about the animals that starve every year.

 

[Mamba]

<div class="quote_poster">phunDamentalz Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">
this is total BS. in countries where guns are much harder to come by, guess what? Their murder rates are a fraction of the U.S. Crimes of passion, heat of the moment crimes (which is 90% of murders) when there is a gun around almost always end in a fatality. No gun? You might get stabbed MAYBE if the person's really nuts, and then you will most likely be fine. Guns are a HUGE catalyst for violence just by their existence alone.</div>

That may be true, but guns will never go away. Black market. Think of when alcohol was illegal, it never went away.