If you had the choice......

[3RA1N1AC]

btw, his 41.1 career WAR as a SS place him 38th in the history of baseball

right ahead of some schlub named phil rizzuto

not too shabby

 

[yankeesince59]

...rick, just ignore the troll bait.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

all that said, derailing this thread was never my intention, i consider myself a guest here on your guys board, and am happy to have a place to talk baseball with what seems to be a great group of knowledgeable posters

another team id love to see would have been the A's with catfish and reggie and rollie and camp, that seems like a really fun team

 

[Rick2583]

all that said, derailing this thread was never my intention, i consider myself a guest here on your guys board, and am happy to have a place to talk baseball with what seems to be a great group of knowledgeable posters

another team id love to see would have been the A's with catfish and reggie and rollie and camp, that seems like a really fun team

I'm sure it wasn't but this all could have been avoided had you not expected us to remember the nick name of a career 220 hitter. And then insult us for not knowing.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

40+ career WAR
MVP votes
All star
Multiple gold gloves

But please, tell me where I was bragging?

you guys are hilarious!

No this post is getting hysterical....

For one, with 8 gold gloves one would think Mark would of been in more than ONE All Star game. ONE in his 18 years. That is nothing to brag about, that is hysterical, not hilarious!!!

Belanger received MVP votes in but 3 years of his career, 21st, 23rd, and 26th. I wouldn't call that impressive, lesser players have done better!!!!! Also hysterical.

WAR is becoming the most over abused statistic, even Bill James says as much. I do believe Boomer has created a beast he himself, stated is abused as a now almost meaningless stat. BTW-M.B's WAR is not for replacing the superior Aparicio. It's for 2nd string, (basically glorified Minor Leaguer) replacements.

The only legitimate point, has already been made, received, agreed, and reiterated one to many times. Rick said as much, as did all others.

Mark was a good fielding SS. Not the best either. I suppose now were going to hear how much better of a glove he had than The Wizard of Oz or other great SS Hall of Famers.

Tell me again how many Hall Of Fame votes Belanger, 'the boy scout knife', I mean Swiss Army blade, received in his entire lifetime.

I know you were never present during his rookie year, when he was constantly booed and jeered, because he was NO LUIS APARICIO... and fans were pissed off, the O's let Luis go. Just like De Cinces first year. Doug was booed more than cheered. Same with Mark in his own home-field.

Let's not overate a guy who was a good glove SS. But that was it. No bat, One All Star game, never came close to a MVP, or a Silver Slugger, let alone a Batting Title. Definitely not a HOF'er.

Like I said, anyone here can name at least a Dozen if not more great Short Stops than Belanger.

Time to sharpen the dull blade. This debate is getting old, for a guy who couldn't hit a ball any more than he could hit a Pinata blind folded. I never saw the difference in Marks at bats, than I have seen with kids swinging blindfolded at a Pinata overhead...!!! Why did Mark seem to go blind with a bat, and not a glove.

That's right he got MVP votes....

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I never bragged about shit, you guys have a weird feeding frenzy thing going on, and sorry, its kinda funny

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I'm sure it wasn't but this all could have been avoided had you not expected us to remember the nick name of a career 220 hitter. And then insult us for not knowing.

Rick, this kinda snowballed out of nowhere, I never meant to be coy or whatever, was just posting and having fun, no disrespect.

He was a drunk and an asshole

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Another team would definitely be the pirates with bonds, van Slyke, bobby bo, drabek, etc

 

[yankeesince59]

...still trying to figure out the "revolutionary defender" thing. Good at his position, yes...revolutionary, I just don't see it.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

...still trying to figure out the "revolutionary defender" thing. Good at his position, yes...revolutionary, I just don't see it.

I second that notion.

Perhaps the reference of the 'revolutionary defender' or 'blade', must of been more in line with "Zorro the Gay Blade".

As bad a movie, as the blade being called revolutionary! If Belander was 'revolutionary', then what were real great Short Stops, average Joes?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I was waiting for some weak mind to call him gay, what a great insult! Hey you are gay! Haha! A gay person! What a loser he must be, he is gay!

Pathetic

Mark Belanger had the greatest defensive season in the history of the game, with 35.1 runs saved, and also the TOP 4 3 year peak values.

Defensive sabermetrics are hit and miss IMO, but total zone is respected in the statistical community.

But he was gay so who cares

http://www.hardballtimes.com/who-was-best-at-playing-the-field/

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I'm more than happy to have a discussion about this, the level of incredulous ignorant rage from some of you is perplexing though

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Did anyone mention the big red machine from the 70s yet? Great team.

 

[Rick2583]

I was waiting for some weak mind to call him gay, what a great insult! Hey you are gay! Haha! A gay person! What a loser he must be, he is gay!

Pathetic

Mark Belanger had the greatest defensive season in the history of the game, with 35.1 runs saved, and also the TOP 4 3 year peak values.

Defensive sabermetrics are hit and miss IMO, but total zone is respected in the statistical community.

But he was gay so who cares

http://www.hardballtimes.com/who-was-best-at-playing-the-field/

Geez kid, you can defend this slug all you want with strange statistics that NOBODY gives a rats ass about or even follows. The bottom line is that he probably doesn't even crack the top 20 in most of the more COMMON statistics that normal people actually look at for short stops.

And seriously the 7-8 GGs that he won only tells me that the voters had to have a great sense of humor. EXAMPLE: did you know that in 16 years Larry Bowa only got 1 GG? or that Cal Ripkin only received 2? So please, enough with the dumb stats that no one but you follows. I know he's a relative & you feel it necessary to defend him, but pulling far out stupid stats out of your ass just doesn't do it. Let it go & move on.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Nobody ever had a kind word to say, and I never met him. I assure you I have no vested interest.

Stats like WAR and defensive metrics only tell a part of the story obviously, much like his anemic batting tell a part, but to say that they are "dumb stats, and only you follow them" is shortsighted and frankly, false. Shades of "Get off my lawn! Damn kids and their wheely boards! Doing the hula hoop twist to their hall and oats heavy metal music!"

Batting average and homeruns arent the only measure of a players worth anymore sadly

One thing I hadn't considered until just now, you are all Yankee fans, so that might explain the oriole hate?

 

[Mattingly23NY]

I'm more than happy to have a discussion about this, the level of incredulous ignorant rage from some of you is perplexing though

Geez kid, you can defend this slug all you want with strange statistics that NOBODY gives a rats ass about or even follows. The bottom line is that he probably doesn't even crack the top 20 in most of the more COMMON statistics that normal people actually look at for short stops.

And seriously the 7-8 GGs that he won only tells me that the voters had to have a great sense of humor. EXAMPLE: did you know that in 16 years Larry Bowa only got 1 GG? or that Cal Ripkin only received 2? So please, enough with the dumb stats that no one but you follows. I know he's a relative & you feel it necessary to defend him, but pulling far out stupid stats out of your ass just doesn't do it. Let it go & move on.

If fish had the mentality to not want to see life from inside a frying pan, then one would think, don't eat the "power bait", but no, eat the bait, take its broiling, and be happy to be dinner, a small sacrifice for a mindless fish.

Even a fish would know, (or are fish to busy trolling to know), I never said Mark was gay. I never had the mindset to say Mark was gay....If taken that way, the waters are to shallow, and the fish are on the hook...me, I'm just sitting here with my net, as they flop on the shore, and intp my net.....the frying pan is hot enough for cooking~! I quit drinking 15 years ago, but someone pass me a cold beer, nothing like beer with my fish.

The constant defense of a 'revolutionary defender', this is what is gay!!! I almost expected as less, from shallow minded fish.

Wonder what Earl Weaver would of said about todays over kill of sabr-metrics. I can just hear ol' Earl telling off Bill James. I can still hear the booes of hometown fans in Baltimore, "go back to the minors, you are no Luis Aparicio".......'LUIS, LUIS', yes; that was the reality in 68 during O's games. Guess you weren't born then, or recall this historical year. (I already mentioned this and the jeers DeCinces also received). Yet, shallow minds never can see the point, they are to blind to see the facts, while swimming under the water, picking at the power bait, dangling, here fishy, the campfire is ready for cooking, the table is already set.......

An alert mind would be able to read too. The Big Red Machine has been mentioned....yet please feel free to expound. You want to see what a real revolutionary defender was, I wish you were alive when Johnny Bench revolutionized the art of Catching. Why cause such hate and discontent, when your not a Yankee Fan? Why would you troll here, talking like a flopping fish up in a feeding frenzy? Because your a O's fan? Were not the fish, were the ones with rods and reels, a cold beer, a hot frying pan!

so please don't call any one here ignorant, or losers, your lack of depth, comprehension on what a real defender is, they happen to put those greats in the Hall of Fame. But I thought everyone knew this. Guess not! Crap, we got some educating to do. If only a person was old enough to see historical eras, games, players, during their playing years, then one would have a broader perspective on players from those eras. Freedom of speech is for those who have the mentality to know a great revolutionary defender when they see one, not for those who are ignorant to the facts....yet speak out anyway, and I am done listening, I'd rather have more fun with my grandkids, who listen well to the lessons of History, especially about our National Pastime, and the greats, who most of us here not only emulated, but also we lived in a Culture of History in the making. How many people here do you know who got Willie Mays, McCovey, Marichal, Perry's, 'Sudden Sam McDowell, Luis Tiant, Rocco Colavito's autographs by crawling across the top of a dugout to obtain those greats, of which I still have my signed scorecard. Let me guess, most kids today don't realize there was a time, when a kid could get away with climbing on top of a dugout, getting those autographs, and never being thrown out of a park, not even being told to stay off of the dugout. Yes, there was a day, when such actions never warranted throwing a kid out of a game, which was a Historical Moment in itself.

Rod Carew, several times had a .994-.996 fielding percentage, he NEVER won a gold glove, and last I checked Rod is enshrined in Cooperstown. I don't recall seeing Mark in the Hallowed Halls. Oh no, Ozzie Smith much more a 'revolutionary defender' also had a weak bat, (tho don't tell that to the Bums) popped a HR to destroy Bums faithful hearts, if they even had a heart! Ripken, heck even Omar Vizquel was a better SS than Mark. Vizquel could play any position. He's not in the HOF, but he made Mark look like a minor Leaguer.

Please, don't start shit, if you don't want to wipe off your fever brow. Don't troll here, and expect common courtesy. Don't call this team of posters anything less than respectful, more knowledgeable than most National Past-time fans. Here you will find a plethora of no bars held, knowledge, historically, open minded, historians and statisticians. No one here needs to be force fed Sabr-Metrics, which yes, have a place in baseball, but metrics never cover the out of the ordinary, the intangibles of any player cannot be measured.

Just like a fish cannot see to well, eats the bait, then complains, calling names. No, Mark I have respect for.....the posting of absurd name calling is gay"

She is uncomposed, therefore she doesn't know, she only supposes.

I don't think there was anything greater than growing up in the 40s to 60s, even 70s, when History was constantly being made, and any kid knew they were not just watching a baseball game, they already knew men like Willie Mays, McCovey, Marichal, Perry, Mantle, Berra, Brooks and Frank Robinson, so on and on........yes, those were revolutionary players in all aspects, not just with a glove.

 

[Rick2583]

Nobody ever had a kind word to say, and I never met him. I assure you I have no vested interest.

Stats like WAR and defensive metrics only tell a part of the story obviously, much like his anemic batting tell a part, but to say that they are "dumb stats, and only you follow them" is shortsighted and frankly, false. Shades of "Get off my lawn! Damn kids and their wheely boards! Doing the hula hoop twist to their hall and oats heavy metal music!"

Batting average and homeruns arent the only measure of a players worth anymore sadly

One thing I hadn't considered until just now, you are all Yankee fans, so that might explain the oriole hate?

I would have thought by now that you were done trying to build this guy up but apparently you want to keep this going so what the hell, let me try this,..................

First off I was a fan of many of the Oriole players, Robinson (both Frank & Brooks) Boog Powell was always a favorite & Palmer was a genius on the mound.

Secondly ANYONE who judges a player solely on HRs & BA shouldn't even call themselves a fan of the sport. By the same token ANYONE who uses the stats you pulled up is reaching to make a player more then he actually was. So enough with that nonsense. So with hopes of putting this topic to rest, Please allow me me to expand...

A .300 OBP, .280 SLG%, .580 OPS. Are we done?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I know you feel as though you have to defend your choice of words, but don't bother, just be yourself

Stay classy

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I would have thought by now that you were done trying to build this guy up but apparently you want to keep this going so what the hell, let me try this,..................

First off I was a fan of many of the Oriole players, Robinson (both Frank & Brooks) Boog Powell was always a favorite & Palmer was a genius on the mound.

Secondly ANYONE who judges a player solely on HRs & BA shouldn't even call themselves a fan of the sport. By the same token ANYONE who uses the stats you pulled up is reaching to make a player more then he actually was. So enough with that nonsense. So with hopes of putting this topic to rest, Please allow me me to expand...

A .300 OBP, .280 SLG%, .580 OPS. Are we done?

It is well documented that he was an atrocious hitter, one of the worst. Maybe a .300 obp should be called the "Belanger line"? In a shout out to the marvelous Mendoza. Horrible, terrible, putrid, despicable hitter. Really just a burning refuse pile of hitting talent. He hit baseballs with the skill of a moth. His power could only be described as nonexistent. Anyone with an ounce of baseball knowledge knows this.

Why you think it is relevant to his fielding prowess continues to escape me though

 

[Rick2583]

It is well documented that he was an atrocious hitter, one of the worst. Maybe a .300 obp should be called the "Belanger line"? In a shout out to the marvelous Mendoza. Horrible, terrible, putrid, despicable hitter. Really just a burning refuse pile of hitting talent. He hit baseballs with the skill of a moth. His power could only be described as nonexistent. Anyone with an ounce of baseball knowledge knows this.

Why you think it is relevant to his fielding prowess continues to escape me though

I already addressed his fielding in post #44, you may have missed while you were busy digging up all your other dumb shit stats.

Please let it go, at this point you're only embarrassing yourself. And if its just a matter of attention that you're looking for.................get a dog.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

The bottom line is that he probably doesn't even crack the top 20 in most of the more COMMON statistics that normal people actually look at for short stops.

ahh the common statistics? such as? jeter won a gold glove for a high fielding percentage a couple years ago. people without common sense think that makes him the best defensive shortstop in the league. fact is he graded out that year as one of the worst. one of the absolute worst. its a simple mathematical equation.

whats more, 98% of 100, or 97% of 200? pretty simple if you ask me.

now listen, im not trying to reinvent the wheel here, but for a group of old guys who claim they have a firm mental grasp on all things statistic related, you are all showing the exact opposite to be true.

as far as "embarrassing myself", why not try a different tired internet forum cliche, like "he was gay"

 

[3RA1N1AC]

dumb shit stats.

lay it on me, i need to get learned on these mysterious smart guy stats

 

[Rick2583]

ahh the common statistics? such as? jeter won a gold glove for a high fielding percentage a couple years ago. people without common sense think that makes him the best defensive shortstop in the league. fact is he graded out that year as one of the worst. one of the absolute worst. its a simple mathematical equation.

whats more, 98% of 100, or 97% of 200? pretty simple if you ask me.

now listen, im not trying to reinvent the wheel here, but for a group of old guys who claim they have a firm mental grasp on all things statistic related, you are all showing the exact opposite to be true.

as far as "embarrassing myself", why not try a different tired internet forum cliche, like "he was gay"

Jeter will never be mistaken at short to be Ozzie but unlike Belanger he NEVER won a GG with a fielding % under .975. And career wise he's only a notch below the SHARP fielding Mark Belanger. .977 to .976 How's that for simple math?

"Sometimes it's best to keep your mouth shut & just have people THINK you're stupid, then to open up your mouth & remove all doubt".

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Jeter will never be mistaken at short to be Ozzie but unlike Belanger he NEVER won a GG with a fielding % under .975. And career wise he's only a notch below the SHARP fielding Mark Belanger. .977 to .976 How's that for simple math?

"Sometimes it's best to keep your mouth shut & just have people THINK you're stupid, then to open up your mouth & remove all doubt".

so fielding percentage is what the smart guys are hanging their hats on these days??? thats rich!

seriously, a simple question

player A gets to 100 balls and fields 98% of them error free

player b gets to 200 balls and plays 97% of them error free

whats better?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

i mean, are we saying he wasnt a stellar defender now? holy shit!

the effort some people will expend in order to keep their heads buried in the sand knows no bounds

 

[yankeesince59]

"stellar" < "revolutionary"


"I know you feel as though you have to defend your choice of words, but don't bother, just be yourself "

 

[3RA1N1AC]

"stellar" < "revolutionary"

well, technically it would be "stellar ≠ revolutionary". not sure why you are trying to give comparative value to the two words, when they mean completely different things. grasping at straws maybe, who knows. and it is possible to be two things at once, such as "you are fat and bald"

fat ≠ bald, but you can be both things, as you well know

 

[yankeesince59]

...lol..yes, they ARE "two different things"...but you used them both...now, which is it?...stellar or revolutionary?...pick one.

...like I said, and pointed out, you're faced with "defending" your own words.


...and sorry, but no, I'm not the one "grasping" at anything here.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

i choose both, he was also incredible, awesome, and nifty

ooh and sublime too, definitely sublime

 

[yankeesince59]

...nice dodge...back peddling personified.

...if you'd obviously rather tap dance, let's revisit your original stance...please illustrate how Bellanger was "A revolutionary defender if there ever was one"



...this should be good.