If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Period!!

[BrianFromWA]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

It's 1% of family income (or $95/pp, $275/family), whichever is greater. That's about a grand for me, with no coverage. Probably do-able, especially if you're single or young married, entering-workforce wages--call it $500 a year or so for a teacher.

But the penalty escalates to 2.5% or $2095 per family per year, whichever is greater in a couple of years. I would be worried that it would keep escalating, except we've seen how it takes a lot to get FICA and SS increased (even though they're woefully undertaxed for what goes out).

What I thought was a bit funny, though, was the explanation of why there was a penalty/tax:

The penalty is meant to offset the costs of urgent medical care for individuals who do not have health insurance, according to Healthcare.gov. The website also warns that people without health coverage will have to pay the entire costs of all their medical care.

So wait...do people without health coverage get urgent care paid for by these penalties, or do they have to "pay the entire costs of all of their medical care". Or is this another case of "this is how we take from citizens to help illegals"?

Full Disclosure:
Tricare reserve is about $200/mo, and I've been told it meets "minimums" by the Chief of Navy Reserve (moot point while I'm deployed on active duty, but a concern when I get back).

 

[barfo]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

So wait...do people without health coverage get urgent care paid for by these penalties, or do they have to "pay the entire costs of all of their medical care". Or is this another case of "this is how we take from citizens to help illegals"?

I'd guess that means that those without coverage will be billed for their urgent care costs (same as now) but it expected that a sizable fraction won't pay the bill (same as now).
The latter part about 'all their medical care' obviously includes non-urgent care, where it would be slightly more difficult to evade the bill.

barfo

 

[BrianFromWA]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

But wouldn't any medical care, urgent or not, that goes to the ER (or equivalent) qualify as "urgent"? Isn't that one of the major drivers for the law?

 

[barfo]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

But wouldn't any medical care, urgent or not, that goes to the ER (or equivalent) qualify as "urgent"? Isn't that one of the major drivers for the law?

Yes, but I'm not sure I'm getting your point. Woman doesn't walk into the emergency room and say 'I'm due for a pap smear, it's an emergency'.

barfo

 

[BrianFromWA]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

I see what you're saying. I'm not talking about preventative. I was talking about "I'm in the ER because my nose is running and won't stop" or various other non-life-threatening care that goes to an ER when uninsured. Care is given ("medical" care, vice "urgent" care).

My good friend is an ER nurse (doesn't everyone have one) and the stories she tells are painful to listen to. Oftentimes, they're drug-related.

 

[barfo]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

I see what you're saying. I'm not talking about preventative. I was talking about "I'm in the ER because my nose is running and won't stop" or various other non-life-threatening care that goes to an ER when uninsured. Care is given ("medical" care, vice "urgent" care).

My good friend is an ER nurse (doesn't everyone have one) and the stories she tells are painful to listen to. Oftentimes, they're drug-related.

As her friend, you should help her get off drugs.

I think you are saying that an otherwise law-abiding, honorable person who is choosing to break the law and pay the fine rather than have health insurance, will be paying twice - once the fine, and once at the ER? Not sure that's an issue, since they can choose to have health insurance if that is cheaper for them.

barfo

 

[blazerboy30]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

Perspective. Common sense.

A fairly minor change in our healthcare insurance is not going to destroy the nation. You really think we can survive depression, war, terrorism, etc. but insurance is going to defeat us?

barfo

Greece, Spain, etc say hello.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

No, what I'm saying is that someone who's abiding by the law (that allows you to "opt-out" and pay a fee) isn't stopped from going to the ER just like before, and doesn't seem to be stopped by the law from receiving care and then paying or not paying as they deem appropriate for their situation, just like before.

But I did find the answer to my question. There are a litany of people who get "exemptions" from paying a fee for opting out:

You can be exempted from the requirement to buy health insurance – and hence, from the penalty – if you meet one of the following requirements:

•You are uninsured for less than three months of the year.

•You live illegally in the United States.

•You’re incarcerated, and not awaiting disposition.

•You’re a member of a recognized Indian tribe.

•Your income is officially deemed too low.

•The lowest-priced converge would cost more than 8 percent of your household income.

•You’re a member of a recognized religious sect with religious objections to insurance, including Social Security and Medicare.

•You’re a member of a recognized health-sharing ministry. (Note: Christian Scientists do not currently qualify for the exemption.)

Healthcare.gov also provides a list of hardship exemptions that qualify an individual for exemption.

So the penalty is for people who choose to opt out and pay for their own health care, to pay for those exempted from insurance above. Which seems to me like a large overlap of the 48M uninsured who were supposed to be helped by PPACA.

 

[barfo]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

Greece, Spain, etc say hello.

Well, by golly tell them I said hi!

Also tell them you haven't actually made an argument here, and that I don't think you have one to make.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

No, what I'm saying is that someone who's abiding by the law (that allows you to "opt-out" and pay a fee) isn't stopped from going to the ER just like before, and doesn't seem to be stopped by the law from receiving care and then paying or not paying as they deem appropriate for their situation, just like before.

I don't believe that paying for urgent care is optional under either previous or current law. Certainly some/many people don't pay, but that doesn't mean they don't owe it.

But I did find the answer to my question. There are a litany of people who get "exemptions" from paying a fee for opting out:

Not sure which question that answers, but I'm happy you got an answer.

So the penalty is for people who choose to opt out and pay for their own health care, to pay for those exempted from insurance above. Which seems to me like a large overlap of the 48M uninsured who were supposed to be helped by PPACA.

Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. Yes, those who chose to pay the penalty and their healthcare bills directly will be double-paying. But that's their choice. It's a free country.

barfo

 

[BrianFromWA]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

The original question was "why does the website tell me the penalty for people who don't buy insurance is to cover people who don't buy insurance"? And the answer is "because there's a whole bunch of people who don't have to (and will likely not) buy insurance, not be required to pay anything, and still get medical care because their default will be reimbursed by 'penalty' payments." And the conclusion I made was that the people who most likely didn't have health insurance before (and were supposed to be able to get it with PPACA) included:

Very poor people.
Religious objectors.
Mildly-poor people whose insurance would cost 8% of their income.

I couldn't care less about double-paying. That's a choice. What I'm pointing out is the inability for the bill to provide its intended objective.

They said there were 48 million uninsured people in America (not "Americans", fwiw) who would now be covered by PPACA. I wonder how many of those you think will have coverage on March 31.

 

[blazerboy30]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

Well, by golly tell them I said hi!

Also tell them you haven't actually made an argument here, and that I don't think you have one to make.

barfo

You're making the same ol' argument:
1 particular thing won't ruin the nation.

You think every issue should be analyzed in a vacuum.

Greece and Spain can go back and say that any individual issue didn't ruin their nation.

It's a silly mindset to have, if your goal isn't to ruin the nation.

 

[barfo]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

The original question was "why does the website tell me the penalty for people who don't buy insurance is to cover people who don't buy insurance"? And the answer is "because there's a whole bunch of people who don't have to (and will likely not) buy insurance, not be required to pay anything, and still get medical care because their default will be reimbursed by 'penalty' payments." And the conclusion I made was that the people who most likely didn't have health insurance before (and were supposed to be able to get it with PPACA) included:

Very poor people.

Those are already on medicaid, so not relevant.

Religious objectors.

How many of these are there really? Can't be very many. Religious objection to insurance? WTF?

Mildly-poor people whose insurance would cost 8% of their income.

These people get subsidies, thus the insurance doesn't cost 8% of their income, right?

They said there were 48 million uninsured people in America (not "Americans", fwiw) who would now be covered by PPACA. I wonder how many of those you think will have coverage on March 31.

Dunno. I thought the number was 30 million, but in any case I'm not in a position to predict the 3/31 number.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

You're making the same ol' argument:
1 particular thing won't ruin the nation.

You think every issue should be analyzed in a vacuum.

Greece and Spain can go back and say that any individual issue didn't ruin their nation.

It's a silly mindset to have, if your goal isn't to ruin the nation.

I will await your detailed analysis of all the issues facing the nation, then. Then we can discuss the exact role of healthcare and how it relates to all the other issues.

barfo

 

[magnifier661]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

I will await your detailed analysis of all the issues facing the nation, then. Then we can discuss the exact role of healthcare and how it relates to all the other issues.

barfo

Explain how Obama spent double the combined national debt in one term, and obamacare wasn't even in effect his first term? What else did he spend it on? Tickle me Elmo's?

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

Explain how Obama spent double the combined national debt in one term, and obamacare wasn't even in effect his first term? What else did he spend it on? Tickle me Elmo's?

Yes. They're handing out cheese and tickle me elmos at the state handout store.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

Yes. They're handing out cheese and tickle me elmos at the state handout store.

Hahaha

 

[MarAzul]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

So the glib bugger can look you in the eye and lie even more convincingly than Bill Clinton.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-adminis...able-to-keep-insurance--report-222249311.html

Damn!!!

I can't even buy insurance like I had. The new exchange my former employer hooked me up with makes the DMV look like the VIP rush. Who the hell knows where this will end?? A two hour meeting today just confused the view.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Did The Dems KNOW We Couldn't Keep Our Healthcare?

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_...-their-health-insurance?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=2

By Lisa Myers and Hannah Rappleye, NBC News

President Obama repeatedly assured Americans that after the Affordable Care Act became law, people who liked their health insurance would be able to keep it. But millions of Americans are getting or are about to get cancellation letters for their health insurance under Obamacare, say experts, and the Obama administration has known that for at least three years.

I knew we couldn't keep our heathcare so why is this news all of a sudden?

I also wonder if Obamacare will truly survive.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Re: Did The Dems KNOW We Couldn't Keep Our Healthcare?

He truly will go down as one of the worst presidents of all time.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Re: Did The Dems KNOW We Couldn't Keep Our Healthcare?

He truly will go down as one of the worst presidents of all time.

Yeah, we have had 3 stinkers in a row.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

Joe Scarborough lost it this morning on MSNBC.

He had a huge panel of liberal types on who were weakly trying to defend Obama for this SNAFU as well as NSA spying on foreign leaders as well as escalated use of drones and associated collateral damage and more.

Basically he said that whatever Bush/Cheney did, Obama's dialed up to 11. The counter was "at least Obama stopped torture." That set him off. I'm paraphrasing... Three people were water boarded ever, and that was before 2005. He stopped water boarding? Give me a break. You guys are a joke. The rant was a good 3-5 minutes long. I don't do it justice here.

What's relevant is the lefties on the show were all at least embarrassed by the failures of ObamaCare, the loss of coverage, and the outright lies he told along the way, like "If you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan. Period." Or that ObamaCare is going to save the average family $2500.

Even worse than the repeated lying and numerous lies, it turns out the president knew that he was lying. That is, he knew people were not going to be able to keep their existing coverage if they liked it.

Even worse even worse, Scaarborough claimed Obama lied during his own state of the union speech. A speech which took months to write and get right. "They wrote it down!" he said, a number of times during his rant.

We were lied into forking over even more money to insurance companies with the hope that maybe we'll actually get health care out of it.


[video=youtube;wfl55GgHr5E]

[video=youtube;8GMRIrFV_fQ]

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

I think Obama wants to do the right thing and national healthcare is a legitimate debate. But what bothers me is all the lies. The right has their share of issues, but the left believes so fervently that so long as they get what they want, lies are justified. It's maddening.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

Joe Scarborough lost it this morning on MSNBC.

He had a huge panel of liberal types on who were weakly trying to defend Obama for this SNAFU as well as NSA spying on foreign leaders as well as escalated use of drones and associated collateral damage and more.

Basically he said that whatever Bush/Cheney did, Obama's dialed up to 11. The counter was "at least Obama stopped torture." That set him off. I'm paraphrasing... Three people were water boarded ever, and that was before 2005. He stopped water boarding? Give me a break. You guys are a joke. The rant was a good 3-5 minutes long. I don't do it justice here.

What's relevant is the lefties on the show were all at least embarrassed by the failures of ObamaCare, the loss of coverage, and the outright lies he told along the way, like "If you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan. Period." Or that ObamaCare is going to save the average family $2500.

Even worse than the repeated lying and numerous lies, it turns out the president knew that he was lying. That is, he knew people were not going to be able to keep their existing coverage if they liked it.

Even worse even worse, Scaarborough claimed Obama lied during his own state of the union speech. A speech which took months to write and get right. "They wrote it down!" he said, a number of times during his rant.

We were lied into forking over even more money to insurance companies with the hope that maybe we'll actually get health care out of it.


[video=youtube;wfl55GgHr5E]

[video=youtube;8GMRIrFV_fQ]

The insurance companies knew all along. That's why they forked over millions of dollars towards obama's campaign. They knew the moment he gets elected, they would take in 100 times more than what they make already

 

[magnifier661]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

Let's put this into perspective. 50,000,000 Americans were without healthcare. There are 317 million Americans. That means 266 million Americans already had a form of healthcare. If the insurance companies agreed to provide healthcare to the uninsured, and Obama says the average national average cost of insurance is $328/month. That's roughly $4,000 per person.

Here is where the insurance companies take in the dough. Right now, the estimates for the new insurance is roughly $5,000 per person per year. That's an extra $1,000 per person average increase. That means the ones already receiving insurance 266 million will pay an extra $1,000. That's 266 trillion dollars more annually!

Now let's look at the uninsured (50,000,000). If the insurance companies just give it to them for free, they would fork out $5,000 x 50 million. That's 250 trillion dollars. This ploy made them 10 trillion dollars. And it is safe to say that the increase can slowly increase each year, making this program work and make them tons of money!

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

A thousand millions is a billion

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

A thousand millions is a billion

Not in england.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

Not in england.

Or Russia.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri



It sure ain't 266 trillion

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Re: If you like your Healthcare coverage, you can keep your Healthcare coverage! Peri

Let's put this into perspective. 50,000,000 Americans were without healthcare. There are 317 million Americans. That means 266 million Americans already had a form of healthcare. If the insurance companies agreed to provide healthcare to the uninsured, and Obama says the average national average cost of insurance is $328/month. That's roughly $4,000 per person.

Here is where the insurance companies take in the dough. Right now, the estimates for the new insurance is roughly $5,000 per person per year. That's an extra $1,000 per person average increase. That means the ones already receiving insurance 266 million will pay an extra $1,000. That's 266 trillion dollars more annually!

Now let's look at the uninsured (50,000,000). If the insurance companies just give it to them for free, they would fork out $5,000 x 50 million. That's 250 trillion dollars. This ploy made them 10 trillion dollars. And it is safe to say that the increase can slowly increase each year, making this program work and make them tons of money!

fuzzy math