In an infinite Universe: Everything is possible

[magnifier661]

In an infinite universe, there are infinite identical and near-identical Magnifiers watching that video.

WIN

 

[magnifier661]

I think he just means that both sides of that argument can interpret it to their own view.

That's exactly what I meant.

 

[magnifier661]

The universe is not infinite.

It has to be infinite. At least according to science.

 

[Eastoff]

Actually you are dead wrong. Infinite possibilities will allow for anything to take place. There could be a species that have evolved for well over zillions of years; and their technology could far exceed what we know today. From the moment Einstien came up with a breakthrough just 100 years ago; propelled our civilization into a much more advanced society. That one discovery accelerated our thinking and technology.



The term "probability" is discussed with "what we don't know" and since you or I or any historical man hasn't proven God doesn't exist, then it cannot be viewed as impossible. And because as you pointed out probable is only used in finite sections or durations; then the concept of God does not apply.




What gets me is how you are so in need to try and break down anyone's philosophy when it related to creation. Its as almost if you fear it or something. My thread didn't discredit athiesm; yet you took offense. In fact, I made it pretty clear that I didn't want to take it to that level. But hey; you want to banter about there is no such thing as God and anyone who believes in God is a joke; then you are more than welcome. I will stick to the concept that anything is possible; therefor God is as possible as the universe happened by chance.

The laws of physics are pretty clear on somethings. We can create and destroy matter, but in the process charge and momentum have to be conserved. So sure, we can create matter ourselves, but when you make a proton, an anti-proton goes flying away in the exact opposite direction and if needed, spiral away ccw to the previous cw. It would not be possible to simply POOF a full human, let alone planet into existance. Additionally, it would not be possible to POOF a planet into basically perfect orbit around a sun WHILE creating it's anti-particle copy FULL planet and somehow have that anti-particle planet (WHICH by the way we have never seen planets made of anti-matter before in astronomy), then somehow make it disappear.

 

[magnifier661]

the statement is a simple logical proposition, not a complex philosophical argument. there are no differing sides or "interpretations" available.

he just doesn't understand the logic and is misusing it for nonsensical wishful thinking.

Again, why are you so quick to try and rain on a creationalist's parade? What do you have to gain? From the way you come about it; it seems you are extremely insecure with what you truly believe. As would be the same thing of one of a creationalist jumping at every chance to make athiests look bad. No matter what end of the spectrum; it's a terrible way of thinking.

Instead take things and interpret it as you will. You are not stupid for not believing in God, but if you believe the universe is infinite, then you are ignorant for thinking those that believe in creation are idiots.

 

[RR7]

creationalist?

 

[magnifier661]

The laws of physics are pretty clear on somethings. We can create and destroy matter, but in the process charge and momentum have to be conserved. So sure, we can create matter ourselves, but when you make a proton, an anti-proton goes flying away in the exact opposite direction and if needed, spiral away ccw to the previous cw. It would not be possible to simply POOF a full human, let alone planet into existance. Additionally, it would not be possible to POOF a planet into basically perfect orbit around a sun WHILE creating it's anti-particle copy FULL planet and somehow have that anti-particle planet (WHICH by the way we have never seen planets made of anti-matter before in astronomy), then somehow make it disappear.

Yes they are very clear with what we know now. But that is finite thinking. If humanity has a chance to evolve for another 10,000 years; who knows what new laws will be discovered? I remember Denny explaining dark matter and it's new discovery. We have no idea how is was created, nor it's purpose in the universe. Also, there are black holes that science is still baffled by. What happens to those things entering it? Whatever the case; since our universe is infinite; anything is truly possible.

 

[magnifier661]

creationalist?

What's the question? Are you saying "creastionists" as in what group? That could be hindu, celtic, greek, roman, christian, muslim, or anyone that believes there is such thing as a creator.

 

[Eastoff]

Again, why are you so quick to try and rain on a creationalist's parade? What do you have to gain? From the way you come about it; it seems you are extremely insecure with what you truly believe. As would be the same thing of one of a creationalist jumping at every chance to make athiests look bad. No matter what end of the spectrum; it's a terrible way of thinking.

Instead take things and interpret it as you will. You are not stupid for not believing in God, but if you believe the universe is infinite, then you are ignorant for thinking those that believe in creation are idiots.

To win, is to stop wasting money on bills and educate that misinform youth. The US was far behind the world in Reading, Math, Science education scores. Teaching kids something that is not factually proven or accurate in school hurts education.

 

[Eastoff]

What's the question? Are you saying "creastionists" as in what group? That could be hindu, celtic, greek, roman, christian, muslim, or anyone that believes there is such thing as a creator.

He was just teasing your use of the new word in a previous comment. It was a typo one can assume.

 

[magnifier661]

To win, is to stop wasting money on bills and educate that misinform youth. The US was far behind the world in Reading, Math, Science education scores. Teaching kids something that is not factually proven or accurate in school hurts education.

LOL wut? I'm still searching for the information that creation is taught in public schools? From what I've seen; that isn't happening. Maybe 20 years ago, but not today. But you think it's okay to make some sort of new world order and act the same as those Christians that went to South America, destroying their culture, religion and way of life because they thought they knew better?

In the end, if science cannot prove God doesn't exist and creation cannot prove it does exist; then it truly is just a matter of preference. Taking away free thinking from people is barbaric.

 

[porkchopexpress]

For a preview of where this is headed:

http://sportstwo.com/threads/206122...is-not-a-sound-belief?highlight=exist+atheist

 

[RR7]

What's the question? Are you saying "creastionists" as in what group? That could be hindu, celtic, greek, roman, christian, muslim, or anyone that believes there is such thing as a creator.

sorry, was just joking, with creationalist versus creationist.

 

[magnifier661]

sorry, was just joking, with creationalist versus creationist.

Hahahaha I didn't catch that.

 

[Eastoff]

LOL wut? I'm still searching for the information that creation is taught in public schools? From what I've seen; that isn't happening. Maybe 20 years ago, but not today. But you think it's okay to make some sort of new world order and act the same as those Christians that went to South America, destroying their culture, religion and way of life because they thought they knew better?

In the end, if science cannot prove God doesn't exist and creation cannot prove it does exist; then it truly is just a matter of preference. Taking away free thinking from people is barbaric.

Googled creationism taught in public schools. Here is the second or third link.

I'm not saying you can prove there is no god. But you can't prove there is a god, and just you shouldn't teach things in school you can't prove. You can be christian and practice and study that, just not at a public school.

 

[magnifier661]

For a preview of where this is headed:

http://sportstwo.com/threads/206122...is-not-a-sound-belief?highlight=exist+atheist

Nope I evolved since then. Maybe it was my major drug use or something; but I am open to all thinking. I think it's pretty damn cool that, we as people being of same carbon structure and chemistry (for the most part), have very different ways of thinking. That a 100 men could think 1 woman is either beautiful or ugly. Or that a concept or statement as simple as "The universe is infinite; therefor anything is possible" could mean so many things to so many different people.

 

[magnifier661]

Googled creationism taught in public schools. Here is the second or third link.

I'm not saying you can prove there is no god. But you can't prove there is a god, and just you shouldn't teach things in school you can't prove. You can be christian and practice and study that, just not at a public school.

That actually supports that creation is not taught in schools anymore.

 

[magnifier661]

I'm not saying you can prove there is no god. But you can't prove there is a god, and just you shouldn't teach things in school you can't prove. You can be christian and practice and study that, just not at a public school.

I agree with you. That place is in Church, where people can go at their own free will. I do agree that if something cannot be proven; then it holds no place in science. But it doesn't stop a person in an elective course, such as theology or literature right?

 

[crowTrobot]

Actually you are dead wrong. Infinite possibilities will allow for anything to take place.

again the statement (as used by scientists like hubble) implies anything POSSIBLE will occur in an infinite universe. it doesn't magically make "anything" you can imagine possible. if the laws of physics are fixed it doesn't make violating them possible.

There could be a species that have evolved for well over zillions of years; and their technology could far exceed what we know today.

there could be. the universe could also possess fixed physical laws/features that limit how far intelligence/technology can extend. if that is the case infinity doesn't magically make violating those laws/features possible.

The term "probability" is discussed with "what we don't know" and since you or I or any historical man hasn't proven God doesn't exist, then it cannot be viewed as impossible.

well yeah but my objection was god has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. if god exists he's by defintion infinite and outside the universe/time, so claiming that infinity somehow makes god/creation more probable is nonsensical.

What gets me is how you are so in need to try and break down anyone's philosophy when it related to creation. Its as almost if you fear it or something. My thread didn't discredit athiesm; yet you took offense.

nah, i was just pointing out your misuse of the topic of your own thread. it really has little or no application to the probability of god/creation.

 

[magnifier661]

again the statement (as used by scientists like hubble) implies anything POSSIBLE will occur in an infinite universe. it doesn't magically make "anything" you can imagine possible. if the laws of physics are fixed it doesn't make violating them possible.

Yes the laws of physics are fixed; but new undiscovered laws could be discovered that could explain this so called "magic" you speak of. And it's not magic if it actually happened using true scientific laws. What we know is not the "end all"; that's what makes science so beautiful. Everything is possible and science holds no discrimination. In fact science is constantly trying to disprove itself. Only those that hold their own opinion and use the "end all because we can't prove it right now" theory as a tool, damages open minded thinking.

there could be. the universe could also possess fixed physical laws/features that limit how far intelligence/technology can extend. if that is the case infinity doesn't magically make violating those laws/features possible.

Yes but you are making an assumption. And to one that puts great weight on science, until you have the ability to disprove; it's actually just an objective thought.

well yeah but my objection was god has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. if god exists he's by defintion infinite and outside the universe/time, so claiming that infinity somehow makes god/creation more probable is nonsensical.

Actually this isn't a valid argument. The Universe may have not been created by our God. Maybe it already existed. But maybe there was our creator, that is in the boundries of this universe. And because the universe is infinite; that God or Creator could have gazillions of years to evolve to a point were he/she/it/they were able to create a perfect solar system to promote life.

nah, i was just pointing out your misuse of the topic of your own thread. it really has little or no application to the probability of god/creation.

Well it doesn't seem you did a good job in exposing the misuse.

 

[BlazerWookee]

Even in an infinite universe, I couldn't get a smile in a whorehouse with a hundred dollar bill taped to my forehead...

 

[crowTrobot]

Yes the laws of physics are fixed; but new undiscovered laws could be discovered that could explain this so called "magic" you speak of. And it's not magic if it actually happened using true scientific laws. What we know is not the "end all"; that's what makes science so beautiful. Everything is possible and science holds no discrimination. In fact science is constantly trying to disprove itself. Only those that hold their own opinion and use the "end all because we can't prove it right now" theory as a tool, damages open minded thinking.

has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. infinity doesn't make it more likely there are undiscovered laws of physics. different subject.

Yes but you are making an assumption. And to one that puts great weight on science, until you have the ability to disprove; it's actually just an objective thought.

i'm not assuming or claiming anything. i'm simply making the point that what is or isn't possible is determined by other things besides infinity.

Actually this isn't a valid argument. The Universe may have not been created by our God. Maybe it already existed. But maybe there was our creator, that is in the boundries of this universe. And because the universe is infinite; that God or Creator could have gazillions of years to evolve to a point were he/she/it/they were able to create a perfect solar system to promote life.

nobody i know of defines "god" to possibly include a superintelligent alien with a finite temporal existence who evolved within the universe. certainly not the creationists you previously referred to. that would be pretty confusing for everyone.

 

[magnifier661]

has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. infinity doesn't make it more likely there are undiscovered laws of physics. different subject.

Oh Really? That's funny since undiscovered laws of physics are always there; that would definitely apply. Just because we haven't discovered it; has no precidence that it doesn't exist. What this was in reply to was your statement that the concept of this creation magic goes against the laws of physics. I simply explained that undiscovered laws could actually support that concept of magic; since it really wasn't magic in the first place. <-- This was a good try though.

i'm not assuming or claiming anything. i'm simply making the point that what is or isn't possible is determined by other things besides infinity.

Actually you did assume because you did not point that out. You were stating that God is impossible; therefor it cannot be applied with infinity. Thinking God is impossible is an assumption.

nobody i know of defines "god" to possibly include a superintelligent alien with a finite temporal existence who evolved within the universe. certainly not the creationists you previously referred to. that would be pretty confusing for everyone.

Creation is creation. And assuming that just because one believes a God(s) maybe some higher intelligent being that designed us; doesn't take them out of the group that believes we were created. I didn't know you knew every single person in this world? That's pretty cool.

 

[Denny Crane]

prove that and win a nobel prize

Exactly. I think it is infinite.

And somewhere, they're playing hockey.

 

[magnifier661]

Exactly. I think it is infinite.

And somewhere, they're playing hockey.

I got a question because I don't really know the answer. Since the Universe is Infinite. How are we able to determin the amount of atoms? I never really grasped that concept; nor the maping of the entire universe. Have we seen the end of it?

 

[Denny Crane]

Actually, the universe is square. When you fly off the right edge, you come back on the left edge. Just like in Asteroids.

It really would work like in Asteroids if the universe is shaped like a bagel.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doughnut_theory_of_the_universe

 

[magnifier661]

Actually, the universe is square. When you fly off the right edge, you come back on the left edge. Just like in Asteroids.

It really would work like in Asteroids if the universe is shaped like a bagel.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doughnut_theory_of_the_universe

Holy shit man that's cool how they figured that out. And frankly that does make some sense. So in otherwords; this would kinda explain the ability to form and reform new galaxies (circulation). I bet the gravity on the outter edge of the universe is super intense or something.

Another question... So if you are on the edge of this donut portion of the universe; I wonder if you could break out of the universe? I mean able to travel past it into somewhere else. Or is there some "metaphorical block wall" that would never allow you to pass.

 

[Denny Crane]

I got a question because I don't really know the answer. Since the Universe is Infinite. How are we able to determin the amount of atoms? I never really grasped that concept; nor the maping of the entire universe. Have we seen the end of it?

They don't know the number of atoms. It's a guestimate. They simply take the number of stars they think there are and divide by the average weight of a star and then by the weight of a hydrogen atom. Obviously, if we can see just 1/4 of the whole universe, then the estimates would be off by 300%.

The universe is a time machine of sorts. They've been able to accurately measure and determine the speed of light and can determine distances to various things out there, even if they're far away. If something is 1 light year away, the light that hits your eye from it this second left that place 1 year ago. You are seeing it as it was one year ago. Between then and now, it could have blown up, but you won't know it until another year passes. When you look at things 2 light years away, 3 light years away, etc., you are looking further back in time.

When they look back toward 13.7B light years, they stop seeing ANYTHING at all.

I think we're very arrogant to assume we can see it all. It is not so hard to imagine the universe is 2x 13.7B light years across and we only see 1/4 of it. But I wouldn't stop at 2x (2x wide, 2x tall is 4x the size). Or that we simply can't see more of it because there simply hasn't been enough time for light to travel from something 15B light years away and hit our eye.

 

[magnifier661]

They don't know the number of atoms. It's a guestimate. They simply take the number of stars they think there are and divide by the average weight of a star and then by the weight of a hydrogen atom. Obviously, if we can see just 1/4 of the whole universe, then the estimates would be off by 300%.

The universe is a time machine of sorts. They've been able to accurately measure and determine the speed of light and can determine distances to various things out there, even if they're far away. If something is 1 light year away, the light that hits your eye from it this second left that place 1 year ago. You are seeing it as it was one year ago. Between then and now, it could have blown up, but you won't know it until another year passes. When you look at things 2 light years away, 3 light years away, etc., you are looking further back in time.

When they look back toward 13.7B light years, they stop seeing ANYTHING at all.

I think we're very arrogant to assume we can see it all. It is not so hard to imagine the universe is 2x 13.7B light years across and we only see 1/4 of it. But I wouldn't stop at 2x (2x wide, 2x tall is 4x the size). Or that we simply can't see more of it because there simply hasn't been enough time for light to travel from something 15B light years away and hit our eye.

Thanks man, that actually makes a lot of sense now. I can get on board with this type of thinking.

 

[Denny Crane]

Holy shit man that's cool how they figured that out. And frankly that does make some sense. So in otherwords; this would kinda explain the ability to form and reform new galaxies (circulation). I bet the gravity on the outter edge of the universe is super intense or something.

Another question... So if you are on the edge of this donut portion of the universe; I wonder if you could break out of the universe? I mean able to travel past it into somewhere else. Or is there some "metaphorical block wall" that would never allow you to pass.

You can't leave the surface. The shape is a metaphor to allow you to visualize how it works.

If the universe were a lot smaller, you could look straight ahead and see the back of your head.