Inconceivable Truth: Does science has an agenda?

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Okay Denny, lets blast away on a new thread. I have my opinions about this "Global Warming" crap I was hearing for Gore "The inventor of the internet".

What I do know is there were many billions of dollars made on the carbon credit program. LOL, I actually got a couple contracts because of it too.

So spill the beans!
 
I think like just about anything, you have your good and your bad seeds.
 
I think before Einstein, scientists pretty much went about doing their thing. A lot of great things were funded through the 1% and their foundations. Things like the polio vaccine.

Einstein wrote a letter to FDR urging him to fund the A-Bomb research. This is the first notable intermixing of big (really big, especially for the time) govt. money and science. Sure, it was for a good cause.

After the bomb was used, Einstein (and others) realized that the genie was out of the bottle and could not be put back into the bottle. They went political and urged an international committee to oversee the atomic stockpiles and further research. This is scientists becoming outside their place in the order of things - they became a political force beyond the actual science. No, they didn't get their way.

At the time Ike left office, he made his famous "military-industrial complex" speech. Some people know that the phrase was "military-industrial-scientific complex" up until the last minute when it was removed from his speech. Ike warned us, and he sure seems visionary considering the kinds of govt. funded research that's gone on (from hallucinogens to stealth technology to "invisibility" to smart bombs...). Granted, many of these things are engineering feats, but so was the A-Bomb. Science at one end of the spectrum develops the theories and engineers put them to work, in action, in the real world.

So why is it that corporations on the govt. dole, those defense contractors, GE, et al, are evil, but scientists who are interested by similar things (money, power, cool toys) are not?

When it comes to global warming, the science is not settled. There are measurements that look like the sky is falling, and there are measurements that look like there's no problem whatsoever. The thing is, the sky is falling crowd gets massive amounts of funding globally, and those who doubt the unsettled science get none or lose their funding. This is political pressure on the scientists to do the bidding of the politicians.

On top of that, the research shared among the scientists who dominate the literature and review process becomes an echo chamber, much like the left-wing blogosphere. Those who disagree are labeled "tools of evil corporations" (like Exxon or other oil or chemical companies). Yet, I personally respect that a top chemist Dow Chemical is sure to know chemistry as well as anyone and deserves to be heard equally.

This is not a knock against science, it's a view of the state of the relationship between science, funding, and govt./corporations.

As with any scientific claims, I feel we all should be enormously skeptical until the evidence is truly conclusive and vetted.

When Al Gore goes around making speeches about how there's some "consensus" among scientists and/or that the science is "settled" he's making an ass out of himself and anyone who buys what he's selling. He's already had to make numerous corrections to his PowerPoint presentation that won him an Oscar and a Nobel prize. His predictions of doom have come and gone, much like the 2012 is the end of the world ones.

Oddly, the thing about "consensus" is that it's a political thing by nature. A VOTE (or survey). Voting is not part of the scientific method, nor should it be any part of science or convincing anyone about anything based upon science.

The science isn't settled. There are numerous hypotheses about the cause of perceived global warming that haven't been truly vetted. Just as the ones that claim they know the cause haven't been truly vetted.

In the end, it's scientists doing the Einstein thing. Pushing the politicians to do what they feel is moral or ethical or just "feels good."
 
Wow didn't look at it that way; but it makes a ton of sense. I think the pressure to do what the money tells you to do is wrong for science. Sucks because true research requires a ton of funding.
 
there is no consensus within the scientific community concerning human impact on global warming that would be remotely comparable to that for the age of the earth or for common descent. scientific consensus on the latter level simply cannot emerge from agendas. too many people are always looking to prove it wrong.
 
This may not be what you're looking for, but I think "science" really had no true agenda (outside, as noted, the A-bomb) until the early 1960's. Then it became a sort of revolution against politicians and money whores. One of the true revolutionists was Rachael Carson with her book Silent Spring. Following was a short time span (maybe 10-15 years) for such scientific revolutionists until they were sucked into money & politics. Today I would say that science does have an agenda and it's almost exclusively skewed for money, power, fame and arises out of politics. Al Gore is the poster child for this movement. Pure science without an agenda has been relegated to being a voice in the wilderness.
 
there is no consensus within the scientific community concerning human impact on global warming that would be remotely comparable to that for the age of the earth or for common descent. scientific consensus on the latter level simply cannot emerge from agendas. too many people are always looking to prove it wrong.

On this we agree. However, there are things science can prove to everyone that requires no consensus. Like they send TV cameras up on the space shuttle and we see the earth is spherical from every angle.

I would also point out that as a skeptic (as all scientists should be), they should all be trying to prove things wrong.
 
there is no consensus within the scientific community concerning human impact on global warming that would be remotely comparable to that for the age of the earth or for common descent. scientific consensus on the latter level simply cannot emerge from agendas. too many people are always looking to prove it wrong.

I think there is a difference. As many might argue about the age of the earth, the science community almost all have the same opinion on its age. Now evolution, global warming or even end of days theories have so many varieties of opinions.

Also another insane situation are treatments for cancer. There are alternative treatments that aren't condoned in the medical field because so many billions are made from radiation and kimotherapy. The pressure on the doctors have ruined advancements in other forms of treatment.
 
I think there is a difference. As many might argue about the age of the earth, the science community almost all have the same opinion on its age. Now evolution, global warming or even end of days theories have so many varieties of opinions.

Also another insane situation are treatments for cancer. There are alternative treatments that aren't condoned in the medical field because so many billions are made from radiation and kimotherapy. The pressure on the doctors have ruined advancements in other forms of treatment.

A ridiculous few might argue the age of the earth, but they have zero compelling evidence to back it up.

Medicine is a numbers game. It became modern when they started keeping statistics. "We gave n people this herb and 62% got better." So when doctors look at alternative treatments, they don't like the odds is all.
 
A ridiculous few might argue the age of the earth, but they have zero compelling evidence to back it up.

Medicine is a numbers game. It became modern when they started keeping statistics. "We gave n people this herb and 62% got better." So when doctors look at alternative treatments, they don't like the odds is all.

Hopefully 62% getting better is pretty damn good IMO. There are also treatments that still keep the regularity of radiation therapy and kemo, while using herbs or even counseling to get them healed. The refusal to don't alternative treatments are insane. I've seen some insurance companies threaten to refuse to pay for treatment unless it's endorsed by doctors, whom are endorsed by leading pharmaceutical companies.

But I guess that's an entirely different matter.

As for global warming. Our company landed a few contract for the carbon credit program. Basically, remediation companies where severely discounting treatment for transferral of their carbon credits. Those companies made a lot of money.
 
Hopefully 62% getting better is pretty damn good IMO. There are also treatments that still keep the regularity of radiation therapy and kemo, while using herbs or even counseling to get them healed. The refusal to don't alternative treatments are insane. I've seen some insurance companies threaten to refuse to pay for treatment unless it's endorsed by doctors, whom are endorsed by leading pharmaceutical companies.

But I guess that's an entirely different matter.

As for global warming. Our company landed a few contract for the carbon credit program. Basically, remediation companies where severely discounting treatment for transferral of their carbon credits. Those companies made a lot of money.

So did Al Gore. Agenda? Hrmmmm!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/en...d-become-worlds-first-carbon-billionaire.html

Al Gore could become world's first carbon billionaire
 
At the time Ike left office, he made his famous "military-industrial complex" speech. Some people know that the phrase was "military-industrial-scientific complex" up until the last minute when it was removed from his speech. Ike warned us, and he sure seems visionary considering the kinds of govt. funded research that's gone on (from hallucinogens to stealth technology to "invisibility" to smart bombs...). Granted, many of these things are engineering feats, but so was the A-Bomb. Science at one end of the spectrum develops the theories and engineers put them to work, in action, in the real world.

You've written this before. Outside of hearsay is there any evidence that this is true? Why would he remove it?
 
You've written this before. Outside of hearsay is there any evidence that this is true? Why would he remove it?

People involved with the speech are all dead. However, you might read the actual speech, which rails against the scientific part of the "complex."

With the initial and continued contributions of scientists to the bomb projects, he shouldn't have removed the word from his speech.
 
Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientifictechnological elite.

(from the speech)
 
nobody is going to point out the "does science HAVE an agenda?"
 
nobody is going to point out the "does science HAVE an agenda?"

I know it's so hard for me to read. I wish mods would change "has" to "have". Serves me right to post from the hip like that.
 
climate-scare-machine-800.gif
 
This graphic confuses climate change policy and climate change science.

It's convenient how the graph omitted money spent fighting climate science.

Also I'm skeptical of the numbers the author uses. There are no link to sources and he only credits himself, "a self-taught, unfunded scientist"

Not a very convincing argument and a bad info-graphic in general.
 
This graphic confuses climate change policy and climate change science.

It's convenient how the graph omitted money spent fighting climate science.

Also I'm skeptical of the numbers the author uses. There are no link to sources and he only credits himself, "a self-taught, unfunded scientist"

Not a very convincing argument and a bad info-graphic in general.

It's a good picture for those who don't get how the whole thing appears to work. You can pick nits with it, so be it. However, it illustrates why the "grand conspiracy" straw man is a straw man.
 
It's a good picture for those who don't get how the whole thing appears to work. You can pick nits with it, so be it. However, it illustrates why the "grand conspiracy" straw man is a straw man.

It's bullshit. What is "the whole thing?"

The tax payer pays for scientific studies, including skeptics (Judith Curry and Jasper Kirkby for example). Donors and add revenue pay for the propaganda.

We've got the IPCC chair receiving death threats and the Heartland Institute trying to push their curriculum in school and it's the climate scientists that we have to be careful of?!?!?!

Who are the real alarmist?

Watch out! Climate Hoax!

Al Gore! Scary!

Renewable Energy! Blasphemy!

Big Gubment! Oooooh!

Enivironmental Groups! Burn them!

Liberal Media! Hide the kids!
 
I find your response both funny and defensive.

You can name exceptions to some part of the chart, but the rule is still there.

The gist is there is no grand conspiracy, just a lot of people with money & power interests who have gamed the system into what the diagram shows.
 
I find your response both funny and defensive.

You can name exceptions to some part of the chart, but the rule is still there.

The gist is there is no grand conspiracy, just a lot of people with money & power interests who have gamed the system into what the diagram shows.


Absolutely there are people taking advantage of people's beliefs (on both sides) but I would not group most scientists into those who are "gaming the system". You don't gain a competitive edge for research funding for slapping "Global Warming" on a grant proposal.
 
Absolutely there are people taking advantage of people's beliefs (on both sides) but I would not group most scientists into those who are "gaming the system". You don't gain a competitive edge for research funding for slapping "Global Warming" on a grant proposal.

Sure you do.

If you have a "green" company, you now get $500M in govt. funding. $tens of $billions in the past three years.
 
Absolutely there are people taking advantage of people's beliefs (on both sides) but I would not group most scientists into those who are "gaming the system". You don't gain a competitive edge for research funding for slapping "Global Warming" on a grant proposal.

Our environmental company, with the collaboration of an oil company just received a 10 million dollar grant, for treatment of sulfur rich waste ponds treatment. We have applied for three other grants that total 50 mil. Probably going to get 30 mil guaranteed.
 
Our environmental company, with the collaboration of an oil company just received a 10 million dollar grant, for treatment of sulfur rich waste ponds treatment. We have applied for three other grants that total 50 mil. Probably going to get 30 mil guaranteed.

Did slapping "global warming" on the grant proposal help you get the money?
 

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