Insurgents attack Iraqi police as U.S. pulls back

[Denny Crane]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE67O1EO20100825

Insurgents attack Iraqi police as U.S. pulls back

(Reuters) - Suicide bombers and other attackers killed at least 62 people in coordinated attacks on Iraqi security forces throughout the country Wednesday, less than a week before U.S. troops formally end combat operations.

The bombings also wounded more than 250 people, underscoring the fragility of Iraq's security and the uncertainty of its political situation more than five months after an election that produced no outright winner and as yet no new government.

The onslaught was launched a day after the U.S. military in Iraq cut its strength to under 50,000 as President Barack Obama, facing a war-weary American public, seeks to fulfill a pledge to end the war launched 7-1/2 years ago by his predecessor.

 

[Denny Crane]

Time tables are great, aren't they.

That's a rhetorical question. After all the blood and treasure we've poured into that place, and the value that the world could get out of it over the long haul, it'd be a shame to see our efforts go to waste.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Indeed. we need dat' oil money.

 

[Denny Crane]

Indeed. we need dat' oil money.

We occupied and rebuilt Germany after WW II, and now look at them. Not aggressors anymore and generally great citizens of the world stage. Good for trade and diplomacy and so on. That's what Iraq could be if we didn't make a political football out of it.

 

[MARIS61]

We occupied and rebuilt Germany after WW II, and now look at them. Not aggressors anymore and generally great citizens of the world stage. Good for trade and diplomacy and so on. That's what Iraq could be if we didn't make a political football out of it.

Can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

 

[Denny Crane]

Can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

You must be talking about Afghanistan. Iraq is the oldest civilization on the planet, with reasonably modern facilities (schools, hospitals, etc.).

 

[jlprk]

After all the blood and treasure we've poured into that place, and the value that the world could get out of it over the long haul, it'd be a shame to see our efforts go to waste.

Same arguments as in the early 70s. We'd still be fighting the Vietnam War if your reasoning had prevailed.

 

[Denny Crane]

Same arguments as in the early 70s. We'd still be fighting the Vietnam War if your reasoning had prevailed.

We had no "mission accomplished" moment in Vietnam, nor a period of occupation and rebuilding.

My thoughts on Vietnam at the time were that we should actually go win the war or get the fuck out. We did neither all along until the miserable end.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Although crudely put (get it, crude oil?), you make a valid point. Iraq was a deeply fractured country when Saddam ruled it. He kept it together by fear. Now that fear is gone, we're seeing it as it really is. I mean, I understand the reasons we went there but the Bush people were incredibly ignorant of how the country would hold together after despotism was removed.

 

[HailBlazers]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE67O1EO20100825

Wow

 

[BrianFromWA]

Doesn't this kind of put a damper on the "we shouldn't be there!!" people? I mean, you'd think that terrorists would be having parties and reclaiming soverignity like normal people, now that the Big Bad Bush Army is leaving. Instead, more bombings, killings, and disruption of infrastructure.

Attaching any motive, religious or otherwise, other than trying to live criminally through force and fear to these people is naive. They're not fighting for their freedom like Maris would if Chinese tanks rolled down Main Street in Bend. They're more like the Oakland looters last month, who used any excuse necessary to steal and pillage. And those people need to be put away or put in the ground.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Doesn't this kind of put a damper on the "we shouldn't be there!!" people? I mean, you'd think that terrorists would be having parties and reclaiming soverignity like normal people, now that the Big Bad Bush Army is leaving. Instead, more bombings, killings, and disruption of infrastructure.

Attaching any motive, religious or otherwise, other than trying to live criminally through force and fear to these people is naive. They're not fighting for their freedom like Maris would if Chinese tanks rolled down Main Street in Bend. They're more like the Oakland looters last month, who used any excuse necessary to steal and pillage. And those people need to be put away or put in the ground.

I might counter that with this:

1) We've been there and provided training, aid & support for the Iraqi government to stabilize and create an adequate security force. At some point in time, if they can't or won't do so, it's not necessarily our responsibility. At some point in time, it's up to them to sink or swim.

2) We cannot be the perpetual world's police force. We help (and die) when it seems right for us to do so, but there are limits.

3) The UN is going to have to step in and do whatever they do.

 

[BrianFromWA]

How long have we been in Germany? Or Japan? Or Korea? Or Kosovo? Or Italy? At what time do we tell them to sink or swim, and why is it that if you're in the Middle East you get 7 years, max, and you have to come home?

How much did the UN help in Korea? Since then, how much have they helped around the world? And are you saying that it'll still be our troops dying, but under a UN commander and flag, so that's different?

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

I'd say 7 years is long enough.

 

[jlprk]

why is it that if you're in the Middle East you get 7 years, max, and you have to come home?

Unless you're paying, the party is over. Outside of the military, we live on reality, not propaganda.

 

[barfo]

How long have we been in Germany? Or Japan? Or Korea? Or Kosovo? Or Italy? At what time do we tell them to sink or swim, and why is it that if you're in the Middle East you get 7 years, max, and you have to come home?

Isn't there kind of a fundamental difference between Iraq and Germany? I mean, no one is shooting at us in Germany, right? Seems to me we are "in Germany" in the same way we are "in San Diego". We have bases there. We aren't fighting a war there.

I'm sure if we could just quietly have some military bases in Iraq, just like Germany, no one would be worrying very much about withdrawal.

barfo

 

[Natebishop3]

Isn't there kind of a fundamental difference between Iraq and Germany? I mean, no one is shooting at us in Germany, right? Seems to me we are "in Germany" in the same way we are "in San Diego". We have bases there. We aren't fighting a war there.

I'm sure if we could just quietly have some military bases in Iraq, just like Germany, no one would be worrying very much about withdrawal.

barfo

Fundamental difference? You mean the 65 years that we have been in Germany, helping to rebuild their cities and infrastructure? It wasn't always a picnic there either. There were pockets of German resistance that fought well after the war had officially ended. The biggest difference between post-WWII Germany and the current war in Iraq is that we are fighting against people from all over that region. It's not limited to Iraqis, but also insurgents from Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc, which makes Iraq all the more unstable.

The other difference I can see, is that the benefit of a truly successful democratic nation in the Middle East would yield far more benefit than what we put into Germany. Dictatorships and theocracies are a thing of the past. If Iraq can successfully transition into a democracy, it's possible the rest of the Middle East will slowly follow suit. Or we can at least hope that it will.

 

[maxiep]

Fundamental difference? You mean the 65 years that we have been in Germany, helping to rebuild their cities and infrastructure? It wasn't always a picnic there either. There were pockets of German resistance that fought well after the war had officially ended. The biggest difference between post-WWII Germany and the current war in Iraq is that we are fighting against people from all over that region. It's not limited to Iraqis, but also insurgents from Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc, which makes Iraq all the more unstable.

The other difference I can see, is that the benefit of a truly successful democratic nation in the Middle East would yield far more benefit than what we put into Germany. Dictatorships and theocracies are a thing of the past. If Iraq can successfully transition into a democracy, it's possible the rest of the Middle East will slowly follow suit. Or we can at least hope that it will.

Repped.

 

[jlprk]

The other difference I can see, is that the benefit of a truly successful democratic nation in the Middle East would yield far more benefit than what we put into Germany. Dictatorships and theocracies are a thing of the past.

You're dreaming using my wallet.

 

[MARIS61]

Isn't there kind of a fundamental difference between Iraq and Germany? I mean, no one is shooting at us in Germany, right? Seems to me we are "in Germany" in the same way we are "in San Diego". We have bases there. We aren't fighting a war there.

I'm sure if we could just quietly have some military bases in Iraq, just like Germany, no one would be worrying very much about withdrawal.

barfo

Agreed.

Maybe they don't want us there?

 

[BrianFromWA]

you're not thinking of the timing. Are you going to compare 2010 Iraq to 1945 Germany or Japan? Or 1953 Korea?

 

[barfo]

you're not thinking of the timing. Are you going to compare 2010 Iraq to 1945 Germany or Japan? Or 1953 Korea?

Yeah. In 1945 we'd won the war against Germany and Japan. We haven't won anything in Iraq as of 2010 and there is no evidence we ever could, unless we kill everyone in the country.

As for Korea, that's a much better parallel. We didn't win the war and it is still a fucked up situation 50 years later.

barfo

 

[Natebishop3]

Yeah. In 1945 we'd won the war against Germany and Japan. We haven't won anything in Iraq as of 2010 and there is no evidence we ever could, unless we kill everyone in the country.

As for Korea, that's a much better parallel. We didn't win the war and it is still a fucked up situation 50 years later.

barfo

Korea and Vietnam are not good comparisons for Iraq. We never tried to unseat a government in either of those two wars. We tried to push an invading army past a line and keep them there. How is that comparable to Iraq? We invaded Iraq in 2003 and overthrew the Saddam regime. We "won" that war. Saddam and his military were defeated.

Also, we are not fighting "everyone in that country". There are many Iraqis who support the new government, and the presence of American forces. We are fighting some Iraqis, as well as insurgents from other countries.

 

[barfo]

Korea and Vietnam are not good comparisons for Iraq. We never tried to unseat a government in either of those two wars. We tried to push an invading army past a line and keep them there. How is that comparable to Iraq? We invaded Iraq in 2003 and overthrew the Saddam regime. We "won" that war. Saddam and his military were defeated.

Yes, but that was the wrong objective. What we did was actually make the country more unstable, not less. It is more democratic now - you can now be killed by any number of different groups, not just Saddam's men. But it's clearly less functional, as a western society, than it was before we invaded.

Also, we are not fighting "everyone in that country". There are many Iraqis who support the new government, and the presence of American forces.

Yes, I think they greeted us with flowers and hugs when we invaded. I remember Uncle Dick Cheney telling us about that.

We are fighting some Iraqis, as well as insurgents from other countries.

No, we aren't. Combat operations in Iraq have ended.

barfo