Is it time to bring Hart off the bench?

[BonesJones]

He’s a volume scorer. Those guys are littered throughout the league. He’s no different than a Jordan Clarkson, Jordan Poole, CJ McCollum etc.

He’d be best suited coming off the bench giving instant offense.

I’ve noticed you can’t handle criticism of players on the roster.

I can handle anything. Got told to livestream my suicide the other day. Trust me, your opinions don't bother me. I'm just responding.

He's better than Jordan Poole, Jordan Clarkson, and CJ McCollum and all those guys are valued more by there teams than you value Ant. Ant isn't just a volume scorer, he's an elite shooter. He already plays with the bench. I will never understand the "He's a great scorer and good playmaker so he shouldn't start" narratives.

 

[BonesJones]

As long as Ant is here he has to start. I don't know if JG or Ant is our second best player but it's one of them and it's close. I just don't think Ant is the ideal match in the back court with Dame but that's not a knock on any of the players, the coaches or management. We had to retain Ant and did so. We'll see what we do with the roster going forward and we'll see what scheme adjustments will be made.

Ant is a prefect fit offensively. Good on or off ball, elite shooter, plays within the flow but can take over. Defensively he isn't great but you can improve the role players to help with that.

 

[MickZagger]

I can handle anything. Got told to livestream my suicide the other day. Trust me, your opinions don't bother me. I'm just responding.

He's better than Jordan Poole, Jordan Clarkson, and CJ McCollum and all those guys are valued more by there teams than you value Ant. Ant isn't just a volume scorer, he's an elite shooter. He already plays with the bench. I will never understand the "He's a great scorer and good playmaker so he shouldn't start" narratives.

Live stream your suicide? Wtf? Weird

I don’t really care about your takes I’m just relaying my evaluation that as of right now he’s a volume scorer and brings nothing else to the table.

It’s not that I have anything against that. It’s a valuable role in the league. He’s just not a star caliber player at this point. He’s offense in bunches or if that’s not working just another player out there.

 

[BonesJones]

Live stream your suicide? Wtf? Weird

I don’t really care about your takes I’m just relaying my evaluation that as of right now he’s a volume scorer and brings nothing else to the table.

It’s not that I have anything against that. It’s a valuable role in the league. He’s just not a star caliber player at this point. He’s offense in bunches or if that’s not working just another player out there.

An efficient 23ppg and 4apg isn't star caliber? If he was the lead guard his numbers would be even higher. The only area he struggles with is defense.

 

[TBpup]

An efficient 23ppg and 4apg isn't star caliber? If he was the lead guard his numbers would be even higher. The only area he struggles with is defense.

The thing is, much like when CJ was here, he can never be the lead guard except in short stretches. And he struggles with the 50% of the game that isn't the offensive side....which is tough on the team because it is the same thing his back court mate struggles with as well.

This sounds very familiar to the last 8 years.

 

[HansenYang]

An efficient 23ppg and 4apg isn't star caliber? If he was the lead guard his numbers would be even higher. The only area he struggles with is defense.

Do you watch the game with Dame is on the bench and Ant is supposed to be 'leading' the second unit? Its atrocious both offensively and defensively.

He is a good scorer - and I enjoy his style of play MUCH better than CJ's... but ideally Ant comes off the bench.

 

[blazerkor]

The thing is, much like when CJ was here, he can never be the lead guard except in short stretches. And he struggles with the 50% of the game that isn't the offensive side....which is tough on the team because it is the same thing his back court mate struggles with as well.

This sounds very familiar to the last 8 years.

I don't think his contract is too bad and I think teams around the league have seen that he can be a potent offensive weapon. So I think he should be traded when he can. If we can find a taker for Nurk who is definitely not suited for Chauncey's defensive philosophies, then we should.

I think our other three starters could start under our current head coach and with the right complementary players give any team a run for their money.

 

[BonesJones]

The thing is, much like when CJ was here, he can never be the lead guard except in short stretches. And he struggles with the 50% of the game that isn't the offensive side....which is tough on the team because it is the same thing his back court mate struggles with as well.

This sounds very familiar to the last 8 years.

Ant's defense isn't anywhere near as bad as people make it out to be and he's been improving.

I love how you're saying "he can never..." about a 23-year old. I wonder what you were saying he'd never be 2 years ago.

 

[BonesJones]

I don't think his contract is too bad and I think teams around the league have seen that he can be a potent offensive weapon. So I think he should be traded when he can. If we can find a taker for Nurk who is definitely not suited for Chauncey's defensive philosophies, then we should.

I think our other three starters could start under our current head coach and with the right complementary players give any team a run for their money.

Nurk is not the problem defensively

 

[BonesJones]

Do you watch the game with Dame is on the bench and Ant is supposed to be 'leading' the second unit? Its atrocious both offensively and defensively.

He is a good scorer - and I enjoy his style of play MUCH better than CJ's... but ideally Ant comes off the bench.

You're blaming Ant for those bench units being atrocious? Have you seen who's coming off our bench? These arguments are so repetitive, boring, and wrong.

If we had Zach Lavine or another "big name", I wonder if you guys would be saying the same thing about the bench. But cutting the minutes of one of our top three players just to play the atrocious bench more makes zero sense whatsoever.

 

[STOMP]

So do you want to see Ant play less or get absolutely gassed? Which one is it?

A 23 year old professional athlete doesn't get absolutely gassed in 18 minutes of play interupted by umpteen stops in the action. Good grief thats soft nonsense.

STOMP

 

[Fairly-Hard]

A 23 year old professional athlete doesn't get absolutely gassed in 18 minutes of play interupted by umpteen stops in the action. Good grief thats soft nonsense.

STOMP

Was thinking the exact same thing. 18 mins out of 24 with multiple TV time outs and a break at the quarter isn’t going to wipe out a player.
At least it shouldn’t.

 

[BonesJones]

A 23 year old professional athlete doesn't get absolutely gassed in 18 minutes of play interupted by umpteen stops in the action. Good grief thats soft nonsense.

STOMP

I take it you've never played basketball before. There's a reason teams don't play their players for 18 minute shifts. But you know better than them and they're all soft for that?

 

[STOMP]

I take it you've never played basketball before. There's a reason teams don't play their players for 18 minute shifts. But you know better than them and they're all soft for that?

Lol, no never played... expect for a little 25 year stretch 4-5 times a week in varioius leagues and the best pickup runs I could find in the Bay Area. I've played with/against many D1/NBA players and even an All-Star (Terrell Brandon). I kept myself in good shape and could run a 5 minute mile and even grab the rim at my best which isn't bad for someone 5'10. But even at my best I'm sure a slam dunk champ/super athlete like Ant could glide circles around me.

No it isn't optimal to play your 2nd best player off the bench or to play anyone in one straight stretch as everyone is fresher with more rest, but it's really not optimal to have your two best players be 6'2 190 lb PGs. Regardless, sell that soft/completely gassed BS elsewhere.

STOMP

 

[Fairly-Hard]

It's not happening as much now. Seems about 20 years ago they started cycling through and shifting players much more. 20 mins a half was pretty normal for players like Jordan. Iverson, Bird, Cheeks, Ellis.
Of course if you go back to Wilt you have lots of players playing that much and Wilt actually averaging just under a complete game.
Heres a note of significance. Lillard 2020, Randle 2021 and Siakam 2022 are all recent leaders averaging about 38 mins a game. That would be pretty close to 19 mins a half.

A 23 year old player should be able to make it 18 mins a half without too much problem and actually most of us in here think 36 mins a game is about right for a starter.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Of course if you go back to Wilt you have lots of players playing that much and Wilt actually averaging just under a complete game.

Just under? I think you mean just over. In 61-62, he played every minute for Philly, averaging 48.5 mpg.

 

[BonesJones]

Lol, no never played... expect for a little 25 year stretch 4-5 times a week in varioius leagues and the best pickup runs I could find in the Bay Area. I've played with/against many D1/NBA players and even an All-Star (Terrell Brandon). I kept myself in good shape and could run a 5 minute mile and even grab the rim at my best which isn't bad for someone 5'10. But even at my best I'm sure a slam dunk champ/super athlete like Ant could glide circles around me.

No it isn't optimal to play your 2nd best player off the bench or to play anyone in one straight stretch as everyone is fresher with more rest, but it's really not optimal to have your two best players be 6'2 190 lb PGs. Regardless, sell that soft/completely gassed BS elsewhere.

STOMP

Ant isn't 6'2.

An NBA game is much more physically intensive then your pickup runs. Athleticism and stamina aren't the same. Ant gliding circles around you or me doesn't mean he's not going to suffer having to play 18 straight minutes where he has to keep up with the best athletes in the world. Thinking that's "soft" is silly.

 

[BonesJones]

It's not happening as much now. Seems about 20 years ago they started cycling through and shifting players much more. 20 mins a half was pretty normal for players like Jordan. Iverson, Bird, Cheeks, Ellis.
Of course if you go back to Wilt you have lots of players playing that much and Wilt actually averaging just under a complete game.
Heres a note of significance. Lillard 2020, Randle 2021 and Siakam 2022 are all recent leaders averaging about 38 mins a game. That would be pretty close to 19 mins a half.

A 23 year old player should be able to make it 18 mins a half without too much problem and actually most of us in here think 36 mins a game is about right for a starter.

I'm not talking about 18 minutes a half, I'm talking about 18 minutes straight. There's a reason NBA coaches avoid doing this.

The game is also faster paced than it was back then.

 

[PCmor7]

A 23 year old professional athlete doesn't get absolutely gassed in 18 minutes of play interupted by umpteen stops in the action. Good grief thats soft nonsense.

STOMP

Try it sometime. Then come back and tell us all how it's nonsense.

The starting and stopping is a lot harder than running long distances at a continuous pace, not even counting the jumping and physical contact.

But, I mean, if you don't believe me, show me who else in the NBA does this or has done this in recent memory.

 

[STOMP]

Ant isn't 6'2.

An NBA game is much more physically intensive than your pickup runs. Athleticism and stamina aren't the same. Ant gliding circles around you or me doesn't mean he's not going to suffer having to play 18 straight minutes where he has to keep up with the best athletes in the world. Thinking that's "soft" is silly.

It’s not Ant who I think is Charmin soft. I’m 100% positive he’d laugh at your claims of what he’s not capable of. No one is buying your nonsense, so sorry. Merry Christmas softy!

STOMP

 

[BonesJones]

It’s not Ant who I think is Charmin soft. I’m 100% positive he’d laugh at your claims of what he’s not capable of. No one is buying your nonsense, so sorry. Merry Christmas softy!

STOMP

I'm not gonna sit here resorting to whatever childish bullshit you're on. Just show me one coach brings a 20ppg scorer off the bench to play 18 minutes straight to end halves. I'll be waiting. Shoot, I'll give you the past decade to find one coach thats done that.

Hope you had a Merry Christmas Thibs.

 

[BonesJones]

Try it sometime. Then come back and tell us all how it's nonsense.

The starting and stopping is a lot harder than running long distances at a continuous pace, not even counting the jumping and physical contact.

But, I mean, if you don't believe me, show me who else in the NBA does this or has done this in recent memory.

But he ran a 5 minute mile and played pickup runs! Every coach is soft!

BONES

 

[STOMP]

But he ran a 5 minute mile and played pickup runs! Every coach is soft!

Sorry Charmin. The garbage you threw out on any player going 18 minutes in a half being completely gassed is just wrong countered not just by me but by decades of NBA hoopers proving otherwise. Among other things those guys were also dealing with inferior shoes, regular back to back to back games, coach travel on planes, crap food and lodging & yet many were posting what you deam near impossible 80+ games a year. Like playing in one longer stretch, none of those things are ideal or maximize performance but the human body is capable of a lot more then the limitations you seemingly can't grasp.

btw, I've done a hell of a lot more athletically then just run a 5 minute mile & play some pretty high level hoops yet I'm sure I was capable of more. Why? Because the people I've known/competed with and against in various athletic events have given me up close and personal examples.

STOMP

 

[STOMP]

Try it sometime. Then come back and tell us all how it's nonsense. The starting and stopping is a lot harder than running long distances at a continuous pace, not even counting the jumping and physical contact.

Read then post. As previously relayed, I regularly played for decades in the best leagues and games I could find in the Bay Area. In college at UO, I ran with Duck players in their pickup runs. Heck back when I was Ant's age, I often played on concrete for an hour plus many times a week. My closest friends did as well... little did we know we were doing the impossible lol

STOMP

 

[HansenYang]

You're blaming Ant for those bench units being atrocious? Have you seen who's coming off our bench? These arguments are so repetitive, boring, and wrong.

If we had Zach Lavine or another "big name", I wonder if you guys would be saying the same thing about the bench. But cutting the minutes of one of our top three players just to play the atrocious bench more makes zero sense whatsoever.

IMO it has a lot to do with the floor leadership.

Dame or Hart could be in the game with those same bench players - and the team can somewhat withstand that. Swap Dame/Hart out with Ant & the bench unit becomes a complete $#!& show...

 

[HansenYang]

You can stagger Hart with the bench. Ant already plays with the bench. People focus too much on Starting vs. Not Starting when at least half the game (if not more) consists of a mix of bench players and starters.

Not starting Ant will result in two paths:

Path 1: Keeping his minutes the same
1a. He subs in at the 6 minute mark of the 1st and 3rd and plays 18 minutes straight to end halves. He plays with the starters in the middle of the 1st/3rd, and ends halves with them. This changes nothing except guaranteeing that he'll be absolutely gassed at the end of every half.
1b. Subbing him in with 8-9 minutes left in the 1st/3rd and giving him a 3-4 minute break later in each half. This also accomplishes nothing and he still plays a similar amount with the starters and bench as he does now.

Path 2: Cut his minutes to bring him off the bench
- This is the only way to bring him off the bench and enact any meaningful change, but the only meaningful change it creates is it makes the team worse.

You're making assumptions here that don't need to be the case.
Portland could easily break each quarter into 3- four (4) minute segments. It's fairly easy to keep everyone from playing more than 8-minute stretches.

What I really like about this approach is that the team always has at least 2 starter quality players on the floor at all times.

Q1.a - Dame, Hart, Grant, Watford, Nurk
Q1.b - Dame, Ant, Sharpe, Grant, Eubanks
Q1.c - Ant, GP2, Hart, Watford, Nurk

Q2.a - Ant, GP2, Hart, Watford, Nurk
Q2.b - Dame, GP2, Sharpe, Grant, Eubanks
Q2.c - Dame, Ant, Hart, Grant, Nurk

Q3.a - Dame, Hart, Grant, Watford, Nurk
Q3.b - Dame, Ant, Sharpe, Grant, Eubanks
Q3.c - Ant, GP2, Hart, Watford, Nurk

Q4.a - Ant, GP2, Hart, Watford, Nurk
Q4.b - Dame, GP2, Sharpe, Grant, Eubanks
Q4.c - Dame, Ant, Hart, Hart, Grant, Nurk

This results in a 9-man rotation with approximate playing time broken down like this.
32-minute players: Dame, Ant, Hart, Grant, Nurk
24-minute players: Watford, GP2 (or Winslow)
16-minute players: Sharpe, Eubanks


PG:
Dame: 32 mins
Ant: 16 mins

SG:
Ant: 16 mins
Hart: 8 mins
GP2: 24 mins (this could be Winslow at the SF position instead - pushing Hart/Sharpe to the SG)

SF:
Hart: 24 mins
Sharpe: 16 mins
Grant: 8 mins

PF:
Grant: 24 mins
Watford: 24 mins

C:
Nurk: 32 mins
Eubanks: 16 mins

 

[cheesehoff]

What makes basketball so hard to win consistently is that what works for one team may not work for another. Having 2 smaller guards who can't defend at all means they have to use Hart and Grant to guard the other teams top scorers, which means we have to have some bad mismatches like Dame or Ant guarding Porter or Gordon, or both. Throw in a dancing bear center who can't stay in front of anybody, a defensive that switches everything, and it's gonna be tough to slow any team.
I'll get in the dick measuring game if that's what it takes to prove basketball knowledge. With this team there are several smaller issues that add up to bigger problems. I think the first steps are getting a better partner for Dame at the 2 and a center that is more athletic and consistent.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I think the first steps are getting a better partner for Dame at the 2 and a center that is more athletic and consistent.

#Tank4Wemby

 

[PCmor7]

Read then post. As previously relayed, I regularly played for decades in the best leagues and games I could find in the Bay Area. In college at UO, I ran with Duck players in their pickup runs. Heck back when I was Ant's age, I often played on concrete for an hour plus many times a week. My closest friends did as well... little did we know we were doing the impossible lol

STOMP

I did read it. I played in a big summer league, too, for years against NBA players, overseas pros, major college players, even a couple of Harlem Globetrotters. I also coached basically every level.

Summer leagues we played 40 minutes with running clocks except the last two minutes. It's nothing ... NOTHING ... like an actual organized team playing with high stakes where EVERYONE is a top-level athlete. The level of playing is nothing alike. To think that it is your level of self-awareness has to be about zero, or you might be the most narcissistic person on this board, and that means even more than me and Bones.

 

[PCmor7]

Just when I thought I read everything I could read on this board, someone still proves they can surprise me with their ability to be delusional.