Is Oden partly a victim of the Deron Williams treatment?

[Rastapopoulos]

I remember thinking that Deron Williams was a pretty big disappointment because Keith Macleod (sp.? He's in the D-League now) was started ahead of him and Williams just didn't seem to do well when he got a chance to play, but it was just Sloan's method of breaking in rookies. I also remember hearing/reading that Nate was purposely allowing Oden to be out on the perimeter guarding wing players on switches so that he got better at moving his feet. Is it possible that a lot of the coaching decisions that are mystifying us (not much pick and roll, making Oden switch on to smaller players) are things Nate is doing as sort of a baptism of fire for Greg? It seems to me that he's likely to have the same attitude to rookies as Sloan (and yes, Nate is starting Batum, but (a) Batum doesn't play long, (b) Batum plays defense, and (c) Sloan did the same thing with Kirilenko) and also has the luxury with a decent team and an amazing backup to not have to baby Greg or try to protect him so that he stays on the court longer and is fed the ball more. Sound plausible?

 

[Boise Blazer]

I tried, I really really did ... but I just dont see it. Plausible? Yes. Likely? No.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I think it's possible, but I have no idea how you'd be able to prove it, short of having a really frank heart to heart with Nate.

I will say I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it Rasta ...

 

[Natebishop3]

I remember thinking that Deron Williams was a pretty big disappointment because Keith Macleod (sp.? He's in the D-League now) was started ahead of him and Williams just didn't seem to do well when he got a chance to play, but it was just Sloan's method of breaking in rookies. I also remember hearing/reading that Nate was purposely allowing Oden to be out on the perimeter guarding wing players on switches so that he got better at moving his feet. Is it possible that a lot of the coaching decisions that are mystifying us (not much pick and roll, making Oden switch on to smaller players) are things Nate is doing as sort of a baptism of fire for Greg? It seems to me that he's likely to have the same attitude to rookies as Sloan (and yes, Nate is starting Batum, but (a) Batum doesn't play long, (b) Batum plays defense, and (c) Sloan did the same thing with Kirilenko) and also has the luxury with a decent team and an amazing backup to not have to baby Greg or try to protect him so that he stays on the court longer and is fed the ball more. Sound plausible?

Totally sounds plausible. I'm really looking forward to next season, mostly because I want to see how Oden, Batum, Bayless, and Rudy develop over the summer.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Of course, the risk is that you break a player's spirit that way. Sloan, of course, would not conceive such a thing possible or basically assume that if a player could get defeated that way then they're a big baby who's never going to make it anyway. I can see Nate worrying about that with Oden, but I think he figures that Oden is smart enough to make it work for himself and laying the foundation for an all-round game is worth it. I can just see Nate not wanting anybody to get a sense of entitlement, no matter how highly rated.

Still like to see some more pick and rolls, though...

(Incidentally, has anyone looked back at Joel Przybilla's stats as a rookie? How were his fouls/minute?)

 

[Nikolokolus]

]Of course, the risk is that you break a player's spirit that way. Sloan, of course, would not conceive such a thing possible or basically assume that if a player could get defeated that way then they're a big baby who's never going to make it anyway.[/B] I can see Nate worrying about that with Oden, but I think he figures that Oden is smart enough to make it work for himself and laying the foundation for an all-round game is worth it. I can just see Nate not wanting anybody to get a sense of entitlement, no matter how highly rated.

Still like to see some more pick and rolls, though...

(Incidentally, has anyone looked back at Joel Przybilla's stats as a rookie? How were his fouls/minute?)

Hey if it works for Sloan I'm not going to question it, he's a sure-fire first ballot HOFer for a reason. I do think the team should resist the temptation to treat Greg like he's "special", but I'm sure that the coaches and management are aware that injuries often have as much of a psychological component to them as a physical one and I have no idea what would or wouldn't be more effective with Greg; maybe he kind of needs the kid glove treatment right now?

As for Joel's foul rate it's kind of hard to compare since he only played 8.2 minutes per game, but he did rack up a whopping 1.7 fouls per game for 0.2 fouls per minute. Greg on the other hand averages 23 minutes per game even and 3.8 fouls per game for a rate of 0.16 ... so I guess you could say he's ahead of the curve

For Comparison's sake, D. Howard averaged 32 minutes per game and 2.8 fouls his rookie season for a rate of 0.09 fouls per minute

 

[PapaG]

Nate plays 4 rookies in a 9 man rotation and starts 2 of them. He also had a Rookie of the Year just two seasons ago.

How can anyone possibly compare him to Jerry Sloan in terms of how he treats rookies?

 

[mgb]

Nate did say he's trying to keep Oden from learning bad habits like backing to the basket as Shaq does instead of moving is feet and staying with the player. In the short term his game is going to suffer, but in the long term he'll be a better player.

 

[drexlersdad]

it really is all about the long term, we need him to kill for us the next 10 years, not this year, we have pryz to take his slack right now.

 

[gatorpops]

it really is all about the long term, we need him to kill for us the next 10 years, not this year, we have pryz to take his slack right now.

Does anyone really think that Greg can stay with Tony Park or Nash etc????

 

[gatorpops]

it really is all about the long term, we need him to kill for us the next 10 years, not this year, we have pryz to take his slack right now.

Does anyone really think that Greg can stay with Tony Park or Nash etc????

What center in the league has/can stay with the quick guards??

 

[Ed O]

Nate plays 4 rookies in a 9 man rotation and starts 2 of them. He also had a Rookie of the Year just two seasons ago.

How can anyone possibly compare him to Jerry Sloan in terms of how he treats rookies?

Who else would he play?

I guess he could start Outlaw, but what other SF does he have other than Batum?

He brings Rudy off the bench because he has ... who? No other SG.

He could play Blake and Sergio instead of Bayless... oh, wait. He does that.

He could limit the minutes Oden gets because Joel is a darn good player, and he does that.

Nate has no choice but to play these guys. The only position he has of depth on the team currently is at power forward (where Frye, Ike and Shavlik ALL play) and that's the only position where we do not have a rookie.

KP has painted him into a corner. He HAS to play rookies, especially with Blake and Webster hurt.

Ed O.

 

[PapaG]

Who else would he play?

I guess he could start Outlaw, but what other SF does he have other than Batum?

He brings Rudy off the bench because he has ... who? No other SG.

He could play Blake and Sergio instead of Bayless... oh, wait. He does that.

He could limit the minutes Oden gets because Joel is a darn good player, and he does that.

Nate has no choice but to play these guys. The only position he has of depth on the team currently is at power forward (where Frye, Ike and Shavlik ALL play) and that's the only position where we do not have a rookie.
KP has painted him into a corner. He HAS to play rookies, especially with Blake and Webster hurt.

Ed O.

Still doesn't answer why Roy was a Rookie of the Year under Nate on a team that included Zach Randolph. Or is your position that you agree that Nate and Jerry Sloan have similar views on rookies? If so, the evidence in Portland seems to contradict that viewpoint. I know you're m.o. is to dispute pretty much any opinion I have, but in this case, it doesn't seem to hold up to the actual facts.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Oden is a victim of his teammates not throwing him the ball early, and of his coach not drawing up plays for him.

 

[PapaG]

Oden is a victim of his teammates not throwing him the ball early, and of his coach not drawing up plays for him.

That's much closer to the truth than to blame Nate for freezing out rookies. I'lll add Oden is also a victim to varying degrees of effort, the committing of silly fouls, and a still-developing game.

 

[hasoos]

That's much closer to the truth than to blame Nate for freezing out rookies. I'lll add Oden is also a victim to varying degrees of effort, the committing of silly fouls, and a still-developing game.

Part of the problem is, Oden is trying to cover for the guards and SF which are allowing the penetration. If he lets the guy go by untouched, he gets yanked by Nate. If he tries to stop them, and committs a foul, he gets yanked by Nate. Sometimes he does nothing wrong, and is not in foul trouble, and gets yanked by Nate. Is there a pattern here?

 

[Natebishop3]

Part of the problem is, Oden is trying to cover for the guards and SF which are allowing the penetration. If he lets the guy go by untouched, he gets yanked by Nate. If he tries to stop them, and committs a foul, he gets yanked by Nate. Sometimes he does nothing wrong, and is not in foul trouble, and gets yanked by Nate. Is there a pattern here?

Yeah, it's called "The Nate McMillain rotation" and it can not be broken.

 

[Ed O]

Still doesn't answer why Roy was a Rookie of the Year under Nate on a team that included Zach Randolph. Or is your position that you agree that Nate and Jerry Sloan have similar views on rookies? If so, the evidence in Portland seems to contradict that viewpoint. I know you're m.o. is to dispute pretty much any opinion I have, but in this case, it doesn't seem to hold up to the actual facts.

I disagree with pretty much every opinion that I find to be lacking. Why I would disagree with you more than others is not because of who you are, but the logic you use and the assertions you make. I have disagreed with Rasta on just about everything related to the Blazers for over a decade and yet while you manage to play the victim card on a weekly basis, I've never once heard from Rasta that I'm picking on him.

In this thread, you claim as evidence that Nate has four rookies in the rotation... I ask how he can NOT have four rookies in the rotation.

Brandon Roy won RotY because (a) he was a very polished, four-year college player, and (b) there wasn't a ton of competition around the NBA for the honor.

I do believe that Nate is restricting Oden's game by calling so few plays for him and rotating him out of games even when he's not in foul trouble. Whether that's what Jerry Sloan would do or not is not something I'm all that interested in.

Ed O.

 

[PapaG]

Part of the problem is, Oden is trying to cover for the guards and SF which are allowing the penetration. If he lets the guy go by untouched, he gets yanked by Nate. If he tries to stop them, and committs a foul, he gets yanked by Nate. Sometimes he does nothing wrong, and is not in foul trouble, and gets yanked by Nate. Is there a pattern here?

That may be true, but then why isn't Przybilla racking up fouls at a similar rate while playing with worse defenders such as Outlaw and (when Blake gets back) Rodriguez?

 

[PapaG]

I disagree with pretty much every opinion that I find to be lacking. Why I would disagree with you more than others is not because of who you are, but the logic you use and the assertions you make. I have disagreed with Rasta on just about everything related to the Blazers for over a decade and yet while you manage to play the victim card on a weekly basis, I've never once heard from Rasta that I'm picking on him.

In this thread, you claim as evidence that Nate has four rookies in the rotation... I ask how he can NOT have four rookies in the rotation.

Brandon Roy won RotY because (a) he was a very polished, four-year college player, and (b) there wasn't a ton of competition around the NBA for the honor.

I do believe that Nate is restricting Oden's game by calling so few plays for him and rotating him out of games even when he's not in foul trouble. Whether that's what Jerry Sloan would do or not is not something I'm all that interested in.
Ed O.

Well, seeing as that is the purpose of the thread, I found my posts to be relevant and on-topic. So if you found my opinion to be "lacking", at least frame it in the proper context of the thread at hand. Or don't, and continue to let personal grudges impact your posting patterns.

As for Roy, Deron Williams was also a very polished college player who left after 3 seasons, one of which with an NCAA title game on a team that lost 1 game all year prior the UNC game. Perhaps you could start another thread detailing how Nate is holding back Oden without using Jerry Sloan as a comparative tool? Or how about a thread comparing Nate's use of the polished Roy versus Sloan's use of the polished Deron Williams? Either would suffice.

 

[Ed O]

Well, seeing as that is the purpose of the thread, I found my posts to be relevant and on-topic. So if you found my opinion to be "lacking", at least frame it in the proper context of the thread at hand. Or don't, and continue to let personal grudges impact your posting patterns.

I made no assertion they were irrelevant or off topic. I just do not find them at all compelling.

And what personal grudges? Should I let them impact my posting as you do your paranoia about being discriminated against by everyone?

As for Roy, Deron Williams was also a very polished college player who left after 3 seasons, one of which with an NCAA title game on a team that lost 1 game all year prior the UNC game. Perhaps you could start another thread detailing how Nate is holding back Oden without using Jerry Sloan as a comparative tool? Or how about a thread comparing Nate's use of the polished Roy versus Sloan's use of the polished Deron Williams? Either would suffice.

Or I could consider the posts as they come in and disagree with statements that indicate Nate must treat rookies fairly since he's got four of them in his rotation. How would that be?

Is that OK?

Should I run all my posts by you for content, tone, and absence of personal animus?

Ed O.

 

[PapaG]

I made no assertion they were irrelevant or off topic. I just do not find them at all compelling.

And what personal grudges? Should I let them impact my posting as you do your paranoia about being discriminated against by everyone?



Or I could consider the posts as they come in and disagree with statements that indicate Nate must treat rookies fairly since he's got four of them in his rotation. How would that be?

Is that OK?

Should I run all my posts by you for content, tone, and absence of personal animus?

Ed O.

I never said Nate was treating rookies fairly. I offered up actual proof instead of speculation to show that Nate isn't Jerry Sloan when it comes to rookies. You may want to consider running your posts by me, BTW. At least that way they may be somewhat related to the topic being discussed. I'm still waiting for anything other than opinion to back the case that Nate views rookies and uses them in the same manner as Jerry Sloan. Whether or not Nate treats rookies fairly is another topic for another thread, I suppose.

 

[PapaG]

I made no assertion they were irrelevant or off topic. I just do not find them at all compelling.

And what personal grudges? Should I let them impact my posting as you do your paranoia about being discriminated against by everyone?

Then don't comment on them. Of course, when you don't even know what the thread is about, I have to take your ignorance into consideration when assessing your own posts.

 

[Ed O]

Then don't comment on them. Of course, when you don't even know what the thread is about, I have to take your ignorance into consideration when assessing your own posts.

I know what this thread is about: whether Nate treats rookies fairly or not. Sloan is the paragon of rookie hate, and Rasta's topic, as I understand it, asks if Nate's treatment of Oden is impairing his ability to produce.

You offered up evidence that seemed (if it were relevant, and I assume it is) to indicate Nate treated rookies fairly and that he was not to blame for Oden's inconsistency the same way Sloan may have been responsible for Deron's.

I disagreed with that assertion.

You said I should stop disagreeing with you and start my own thread(s).

Very nice.

Ed O.

 

[PapaG]

I know what this thread is about: whether Nate treats rookies fairly or not. Sloan is the paragon of rookie hate, and Rasta's topic, as I understand it, asks if Nate's treatment of Oden is impairing his ability to produce.

You offered up evidence that seemed (if it were relevant, and I assume it is) to indicate Nate treated rookies fairly and that he was not to blame for Oden's inconsistency the same way Sloan may have been responsible for Deron's.

I disagreed with that assertion.

You said I should stop disagreeing with you and start my own thread(s).

Very nice.

Ed O.

I never said that, Ed. Read the thread again and see me specifically comparing Nate to Sloan, or don't and continue to put words into my mouth. As for you disagreeing with me, I stated that if you wanted to debate things that had no relevance to my Sloan/Nate comparisons, then start a thread about it. Completely disregarding the context of my posts and then debating the strawman you constructed isn't my idea of a good faith disagreement.

 

[Ed O]

I never said that Ed. Read the thread again and see me specifically comparing Nate to Sloan, or don't and continue to put words into my mouth.

Are you being serious right now? REALLY?

Here's what you posted:

Nate plays 4 rookies in a 9 man rotation and starts 2 of them. He also had a Rookie of the Year just two seasons ago.

How can anyone possibly compare him to Jerry Sloan in terms of how he treats rookies?

The first part is the evidence that I addressed.

The second part is either nonsense or an assertion that Nate treats his rookies fairly, since his treatment is nothing like Sloan's, which is unfairly.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills the way you are ignoring what you typed.

Ed O.

 

[PapaG]

Are you being serious right now? REALLY?

Here's what you posted:

Nate plays 4 rookies in a 9 man rotation and starts 2 of them. He also had a Rookie of the Year just two seasons ago.

How can anyone possibly compare him to Jerry Sloan in terms of how he treats rookies?

The first part is the evidence that I addressed.

The second part is either nonsense or an assertion that Nate treats his rookies fairly, since his treatment is nothing like Sloan's, which is unfairly.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills the way you are ignoring what you typed.

Ed O.

Um, that is proof about me stating that it is a Nate vs. Sloan comparison on how they view rookies. I see nothing about whether or not Nate treats rookies fairly. Stop making stuff up about what I posted and stick to the words. You are in the wrong here by ascribing intent to my post that simply isn't there, and at this point it is clear you have some sort of problem with me.

 

[ehizzy3]

jesus christ its the internet he has nothing against you

 

[PapaG]

The second part is either nonsense or an assertion that Nate treats his rookies fairly, since his treatment is nothing like Sloan's, which is unfairly.

This entire thread started with a post comparing Oden/Nate and Williams/Sloan. You did read the title of the thread and the first post, right? Because here is a direct quote from the first post.

It seems to me that he's (Nate) likely to have the same attitude to rookies as Sloan

Did you just jump right to my post and pounce, because that what seems likely at this point.

 

[PapaG]

jesus christ its the internet he has nothing against you

I have no problem with you at all. I just don't appreciate having a strawman case constructed against me by a moderator who apparently didn't even read the first post of the thread.