ISIS encroaches on ultimate prize in Iraq

[SlyPokerDog]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-within-8-miles-of-baghdad-airport-and-armed-with-manpads/

 

[Denny Crane]

Someone in our leadership isn't competent.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Someone in our leadership isn't competent.

How is that on us?

Isis isn't that big. At some point Iraq is going to have to stand up for themselves. If they don't want to do that then let Iran take them over. Who gives a flying fuck.

 

[riverman]

Someone in our leadership isn't competent.

Or rather, someone in Iraq's leadership isn't competent

 

[Denny Crane]

There is now a puppet regime in place there. It's no longer the one that was elected, but one Kerry and Obama chose.

 

[riverman]

There is now a puppet regime in place there. It's no longer the one that was elected, but one Kerry and Obama chose.

I think it's arrogant to believe we manipulate Iraqi political power or really trust or control anybody in that region at all.

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...c5aeae-02c9-11e4-8fd0-3a663dfa68ac_story.html

 

[riverman]

To me, the region is very similar to the Balkans in former Yugoslavia. I see the Sunni-Shia(sp)? blood feud just redefining borders the way Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia did after their warlord dance.

 

[Denny Crane]

As I see it, the Sunnis are a minority that runs states like apartheid. When the Shi'ia took over, they did little to unify the nation for all the people.

It wasn't right that W tried to install a government in his vision, and it's not at all making things better that Obama is trying his version.

We had our own bloody civil war. At least we determined our own destiny.

 

[lawai'a]

As I see it, the Sunnis are a minority that runs states like apartheid. When the Shi'ia took over, they did little to unify the nation for all the people.

It wasn't right that W tried to install a government in his vision, and it's not at all making things better that Obama is trying his version.

We had our own bloody civil war. At least we determined our own destiny.

you mean cheney's war / to protect the American people? should americans pay taxes to prop up the current regime? "the new way forward/surge", we certainly decimated an economy that was producing a federal budget surplus. I thought most libertarians supported non intervention? not sure where the blame falls mainly upon Obama/Kerry? what strategy would you have supported with the wisdom of hindsight? what tactics to achieve your strategy?

 

[Denny Crane]

you mean cheney's war / to protect the American people? should americans pay taxes to prop up the current regime? "the new way forward/surge", we certainly decimated an economy that was producing a federal budget surplus. I thought most libertarians supported non intervention? not sure where the blame falls mainly upon Obama/Kerry? what strategy would you have supported with the wisdom of hindsight? what tactics to achieve your strategy?

Saddam was disarmed. That should have been the end of it. Mission accomplished and all that.

Once the decision was made to occupy, we were stuck with boots on the ground for decades. The US' own Reconstruction is a pretty good template for what to do that works, and what to do that doesn't (what didn't is the occupation ended).

What Obama/Kerry did was to surrender.

 

[THE HCP]

Never post in these threads, but text me when they are within 8 miles of JFK or LAX or PDX.


Sent from my Baller-Ass 5.5" iPhone 6+......... FAMS

 

[lawai'a]

do you mean in "mission accomplished" that we were justified in our aggression and that after decimating the already fragile infrastructure of Iraq, that we should leave them to their own means of rebuilding? certainly that strategy would have allowed for an Iranian presence and influence in the region that would negatively impacted the goals of US interests, political and business and security? no obligation to allies in the region? wasn't the US model of reconstruction one of an occupational force necessary to implement the social and political goals of a truly free and equal society? certainly the south didn't embrace the ideals of their northern occupiers and has led to this day a feeling of emasculation and bitterness that pervades southern politics?

 

[Denny Crane]

do you mean in "mission accomplished" that we were justified in our aggression and that after decimating the already fragile infrastructure of Iraq, that we should leave them to their own means of rebuilding? certainly that strategy would have allowed for an Iranian presence and influence in the region that would negatively impacted the goals of US interests, political and business and security? no obligation to allies in the region? wasn't the US model of reconstruction one of an occupational force necessary to implement the social and political goals of a truly free and equal society? certainly the south didn't embrace the ideals of their northern occupiers and has led to this day a feeling of emasculation and bitterness that pervades southern politics?

The one sure thing is the world, and Iraq, are much better off with Saddam dead.

During reconstruction, there were black lawyers, judges, professors, businessmen, senators, etc. it worked. There was also an insurgency. Lots of lynchings and murders of white people there to help. KKK.

The southern leaders who rebelled were not allowed to hold office again. De-baathification was the policy in Iraq.

Both stopped working when the occupation ended. It takes generations to change those sorts of attitudes, and neither were given that kind of time.

As for void, Iranian influence, US interests, etc., so what? Interfering for those reasons screwed things up in the first place. Iraqis were perfectly willing to take up arms against us, they would have done so against anyone. If not, at least they controlled their own destiny.

We have defense treaties. If NATO wanted to send in peacekeepers, THEN we'd be obligated to participate.

We are going to lose in Afghanistan for the same reasons. Surrender.

 

[lawai'a]

if it is surrender, then are you advocating a continued us occupation?

 

[Denny Crane]

if it is surrender, then are you advocating a continued us occupation?

Once you break it, you own it.

At some point, a Germany or Japan could stand on their own. I see no signs that Iraq or Afghanistan, as we've designed those states, can stand on their own.

 

[Denny Crane]

The time to have left was right after the Mission Accomplished speech.

 

[lawai'a]

The time to have left was right after the Mission Accomplished speech.

but we broke it didn't we? therefore an obligation to fix it as you stated?

 

[Denny Crane]

but we broke it didn't we? therefore an obligation to fix it as you stated?

Taking out Saddam was the fix.

There was no alternative. He wasn't going to leave on his own, he was too strong for the people to rebel, and his equally brutal sons were next in line to assume power.

He was guilty of numerous crimes against humanity. He gassed his own people and Iran. He invaded Kuwait. A decade of sanctions was killing 5x more Iraqis than in the war and occupation. Oil for food only enriched him (he built palaces) and proved how corrupt the UN is.

Feel free to offer an alternative.

 

[lawai'a]

you have stated that to occupy was a critical mistake,yes? yet to end the occupation was the "surrender"that ultimately led to the failure of your justifiable stategegic replacement of saddam. again , we broke it and had a responsibility to fix it. you seem to be trying to justify an open ended conflicts occupation of a foreign land in stating to end the occupation is surrender. replacing saddam was justified by the bush administration as an answer to weapons of mass destruction development, your statements about saddam and family were only used to justify the aggression after no weapons programs were found and no allies to support us. the rest of the world is still waiting for our answer to the removal of saddam. the disenfranchisement of the debaathafication of the Sunni's has lead directly to ISIS seizing the opportunity to fill the vaccum in the region of Iraq .

 

[Denny Crane]

No alternative. Just rhetoric.

Once the decision to occupy was made, it committed us for the very long term. There was no absolute requirement that we occupy.

We had allies. There's a nifty list here: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_–_Iraq#List_of_countries_in_the_coalition

My statements about Saddam are my own. WMDs is why Clinton bombed Iraq in 1998. Did he lie?

Where is the imminent threat from ISIS? What is the justification for this war?

 

[lawai'a]

your coalition left as the world realized that the initial justifications for invasion were predicated on a lie, or at the very least selective manipulation of intelligence to create an apparent need for the invasion. no other country outside of the US and Britain sent more than 3500 troops. unsustainable numbers for an occupation. percentage wise , they sent numerical support to the occupation. and left. being manipulated leaves a bad taste in your mouth, and the see you later and good luck with all that attitude is a direct result. after the complete and utter destruction of the Iraq infrastructure you would have advocated leaving them to their own devises?

 

[Denny Crane]

Some left after 5 years.

You offer no alternative, nor do you answer why Obama's war is justified.

I would gladly have contributed foreign aid to Iraq to rebuild their infrastructure.

 

[lawai'a]

I don't believe that there is justification for our involvement other than "We broke it, now we need to fix it" scence of responsibility. you will have to do better to convince me that the rise of, and areas controlled by ISIS are not a result of saddams removal from power and policy of debaathafication. that the people of Iraq are better off under ISIS than saddam is a fallacy.

 

[Denny Crane]

I have said the occupation and all that went with it was a mistake.

Remember: Mission Accomplished, bring the troops home then?

 

[Denny Crane]

You realize obama armed ISIS? When he surrendered, he left a lot of military equipment there that is now in ISIS hands.

 

[lawai'a]

I have said the occupation and all that went with it was a mistake.

Remember: Mission Accomplished, bring the troops home then?

again we broke it now fix it. throwing money at it doesn't work. no end game strategy here. we needed one before removing saddam.the WW2 invasion-conquering heroes scenario wasn't as advertised. at least "w"s dad realized it couldn't be done. those that won't learn from history are bound to repeat its mistakes.

 

[lawai'a]

You realize obama armed ISIS? When he surrendered, he left a lot of military equipment there that is now in ISIS hands.

the armament of ISIS is a result of to the victor goes the spoils. ISIS isn't there if saddam is.

 

[Denny Crane]

We broke it, Obama broke it worse by surrendering. Now he's weakly trying to fix it. His failure is evident in the title of this thread.

 

[Denny Crane]

There was no ISIS during the occupation. There would not have been one if we never occupied. You suggested Iran would have been emboldened.

ISIS is the product of Obama's surrender.