I've seen Bird, Magic, Jordan, & Kobe play, IMO LeBron is the G.O.A.T

[THE HCP]

"Hey guys, look at my Emmy award."

Should I post another picture of her?

 

[THE HCP]

Actually Sly, we were nominated again and the ceremony is next weekend I believe. SHould we have a thread created for this?

 

[blue9]

I agree that rings aren't a determining factor for being great BUT this conversation is about the GOAT which you absolutely can't be the greatest player ever without a ring.

One word: Sabonis.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Actually Sly, we were nominated again and the ceremony is next weekend I believe. SHould we have a thread created for this?

Sure! Jeff Curtain is a great guy and his hard work is thread worthy.

Calabro tells us every game you only do tape, we're just not sure if it's scotch or masking.

 

[MarAzul]

You place Lebron on a team with Westbrook and Harden and he would have won at least one championship.

Not conviced Dog. You replace Curry with Westbrook and Durant still has no ring. Perhaps even James could not over come that drag.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Not conviced Dog. You replace Curry with Westbrook and Durant still has no ring. Perhaps even James could not over come that drag.

But if Lebron were on the OKC roster in 2012, then he wouldn't have had to go up against Lebron in Miami, and would therefore have won a title. Unless of course Lebron is so great that he could be on both teams at once, in which case I'd still pick the Lebron Heat over the Lebron Thunder.

Lebron. (I didn't type Lebron enough times in this post, so I needed to add a few more Lebrons for good measure).

 

[SlyPokerDog]

But if Lebron were on the OKC roster in 2012, then he wouldn't have had to go up against Lebron in Miami, and would therefore have won a title. Unless of course Lebron is so great that he could be on both teams at once, in which case I'd still pick the Lebron Heat over the Lebron Thunder.

Lebron. (I didn't type Lebron enough times in this post, so I needed to add a few more Lebrons for good measure).

After the thread in the OT section I now correct my original post, Lebron PRIVATE PLANE > Lebron GOAT.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

After the thread in the OT section I now correct my original post, Lebron PRIVATE PLANE > Lebron GOAT.

If we ever get a baseball team in Portland, they should be named the Gulfstreams. That will earn us all of God's blessings, and all the private-plane-wanting players will want to be here.

 

[handiman]

Just saying, we all say this now, but when his career is over and viewed in its totality, don't be surprised if he's being placed alongside those others. It will be seen as him having the misfortune of being paired with Westbrick for 8 years, and then got a decent set of teammates to reach greater heights.

I tend to agree. It falls under the category of history being written by the victors.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I did see him play, many time. I think you are right. Although I must point out that Wilt and his team only managed to win a chanpionship once during the 10 or 11 years he had to contend with the greatest defensive player of all time, Bill Russell.

I suspect, Jordan, Kobe, or James would not look near as good going against a team with Bill Russell anchoring the defense. Wilt became a top notch defender himself after he switched his focus from offense to defence. Jabbar never did join the class of Russell and Wilt in the defensive anchor role. Only Walton joined that class.

Wilt is the most amazing athlete I've ever seen in any sport - period. His combination of size, strength, stamina, speed and leaping ability has never been equaled - even by athletes using steroids. He used that unique combination of size and athleticism to become the most dominant scorer the game has ever seen. I mean, come on, the guy averaged over 50 pg for an entire season. I don't care what era you played in, that's just ridiculous. That meant if he had an off night and only scored scored 40, he'd need to score 60 the next night just to keep up his scoring average - and he did, for an entire season.

But, Russell totally got in Wilt's head, and NOBODY ever got in Jordan's head. Jordan willed his team to win like nobody else (Bird came close). This is why I still give Jordan the edge as GOAT. During the prime of his career, nobody else was winning a title. I believe 100% that if he hadn't taken off nearly 2 years to play baseball, he would have led the Bulls to 8 straight championships.

LeBron let Delonte West get inside his head. What he is doing now is amazing, but at the same age, Jordan was dominating the entire league, not just the weaker of the two conferences.

I also think you underestimate how good Kareem was defensively. He wasn't nearly as athletic as Wilt, and didn't have Russell's motor, but he still made 1st or second team all defense 11 times. As on offense, he wasn't flashy on defense, but he used his length and timing to maximum advantage. He twice blocked over 3oo shots in a season and averaged over 3 bpg seven straight seasons (and over 4 bpg twice). Like Walton, he played for John Wooden in college and had outstanding defensive fundamentals. He played so long, that I think most people remember him as this lanky, lumbering guy who trailed the rest of the players up the court and forget what a force he was, at both ends, earlier in his career. You are right, he wasn't as defensively dominant as Russel (no one was), nor as aggressive as Wilt, but he was still an excellent defender (at least for the first 12 or 13 years of his career).

BNM

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I also think you underestimate how good Kareem was defensively. He wasn't nearly as athletic as Wilt, and didn't have Russell's motor, but he still made 1st or second team all defense 11 times.

But my dad said he doesn't even really run down the court...

 

[Rastapopoulos]

NOBODY ever got in Jordan's head.

Nick Anderson?
Joe Dumars?

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Nick Anderson?
Joe Dumars?

His Dad.

 

[Lanny]

Pffft.. Great players dont let themselves get into an elimination situation....See MJ's Bulls.

Excuse me, but didn't MJ have a guy by the name of Scottie Pippen to help him out? What was Pippen, chopped liver?

 

[Orion Bailey]

Excuse me, but didn't MJ have a guy by the name of Scottie Pippen to help him out? What was Pippen, chopped liver?

I never said he didnt.

And if Pippen is a heavy drinker, his liver may indeed be chopped.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Oh and lbj happened to play with dwade during his prime. He was not minced meat.

 

[~~~GOD~~~]

FTFY

You DARE to mock your creator?????

 

[oldfisherman]

Bill Walton has told a story about who is the g.o.a.t..

MJ & Wilt C. were having an argument about which one of them was the g.o.a.t.. Neither super star would back down, both claimed the title.

David Stern came to get them for the event they were attending. (I can not remember the event Walton mentioned). But they kept arguing.

As they were finally leaving the room, Wilt said this.

MJ, when you played, the rules were changed to make it easier for you to score. When I played, the rules were changed to make harder for me to score.
End of argument.

 

[BigGameDamian]

Nick Anderson?
Joe Dumars?

 

[handiman]

MJ, when you played, the rules were changed to make it easier for you to score. When I played, the rules were changed to make harder for me to score.
End of argument.

What rules were changed to make it easier for MJ? That was the hand checking era...about as tough for a perimeter player to score as there ever has been.

Not saying there weren't any beneficial rule changes, I just can't think of what they would be. Flagrant fouls stemming from Detroit's "Jordan Rules"?

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

What rules were changed to make it easier for MJ? That was the hand checking era...about as tough for a perimeter player to score as there ever has been.

Not saying there weren't any beneficial rule changes, I just can't think of what they would be. Flagrant fouls stemming from Detroit's "Jordan Rules"?

The Jordan Rules referred to the defensive strategy that Detroit used on Jordan, not the NBA rules.

 

[oldfisherman]

What rules were changed to make it easier for MJ? That was the hand checking era...about as tough for a perimeter player to score as there ever has been.

Not saying there weren't any beneficial rule changes, I just can't think of what they would be. Flagrant fouls stemming from Detroit's "Jordan Rules"?

For Wilt, the lane was widened to 16' in 1964.

For MJ, 1994 hand checking and clear path to the basket rules changed making it easier to score.

1997, defender can no longer use forearm to impede the progress of o player. No-charge area expanded. And new defensive player spacing rules made it easier to score.

1998, more rule changes to make it easier to score.

Look up nba rule changes by year for more info.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

For Wilt, the lane was widened to 16' in 1964.

For MJ, 1994 hand checking and clear path to the basket rules changed making it easier to score.

1997, defender can no longer use forearm to impede the progress of o player. No-charge area expanded. And new defensive player spacing rules made it easier to score.

1998, more rule changes to make it easier to score.

Look up nba rule changes by year for more info.

They still were allowed to play a lot more perimeter defense back in the 90’s than today. But you’re right.

 

[MARIS61]

I'll chime in.....

GOAT?

60's = Wilt
70's = Kareem
80's = Magic
90's = MJ
00's = Kobe
10's = Lebron

Each was the terror of his decade (or more). No one wanted to play against them.

But, for each of these guys.....playing in his own era.....I think it's Wilt, but didn't see him play.
So, I'll take MJ.

Kareem and Kobe weren't even the best players on their own team most of their careers.

John Stockton should be above both of them in any list of career greats.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Kareem and Kobe weren't even the best players on their own team most of their careers.

John Stockton should be above both of them in any list of career greats.

Well Kobe I’m his younger days may not have

been better than Shaq, but he won two more championships as the best player on his team.

 

[Stevenson]

"Shortly after Chamberlain died in 1999, former UCLA coach Larry Brown talked about the time that Chamberlain—who was in his 40s at the time—showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in pickup games that were being run by Magic Johnson. Chamberlain dominated everyone, including Magic, even though he wasn't an active NBA player anymore.

"Magic Johnson used to run the games and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt," Brown said. "So Wilt said, 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim."

 

[Stevenson]

Part of the inherent problem with this discussion is that 1) Watching LeBron live makes it seem like he's the best because you saw him score 51 or whatever, and 2) if you never saw MJ live, or Wilt, or whomever, it is just hard to really appreciate their greatness.

 

[Phatguysrule]

If I'm starting a team today the first player I'd pick would be Jordan in his prime, over anybody at any time.

LeBron may be the more dominant player than Jordan. I don't think he'd be more dominant than Wilt though.

 

[jlprk]

Part of the inherent problem with this discussion is that 1) Watching LeBron live makes it seem like he's the best because you saw him score 51 or whatever, and 2) if you never saw MJ live, or Wilt, or whomever, it is just hard to really appreciate their greatness.

Also, Warrior Wilt much > Laker Wilt. And Buck Kareem much > Laker Kareem. And Buck Kareem much > Laker Wilt.

The Lakers drag everyone down.