JFK conspiracy.

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pegs

My future wife.
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For some reason, ever since I started hearing about the JFK assassination theories, they've always intrigued me. The grassy knoll, the wrongness of LHO being an assassin/sniper, the "magic bullet", the mysterious disappearing homeless men, the practically "allowed" assassination of LHO, basically everything surrounding that assassination has always intrigued me, alot.</p>

I've wanted to read the whole Warren Commission, but, hey, I'm a lazy teenager. Wiki will do, haha.</p>

For those of you that don't know everything and want to read up, check out Wiki, it explains alot:</p>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennedy_assassination_theories</p>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination</p>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Commission</p>

Conspiracies have always interested me, and anyone who wants to discuss this please do...I'd love to discuss the truths of this conspiracy.</p>
 
Yeh i had to do this is English (don't ask Why) Really got interested in it. Also the paul Mccartney conspiracy is strange as well.</p>
 
Whats the Paul McCartney conspiracy? I love conspiracy theories. The ones about 9/11 are pretty good too, although I dont really believe them.
 
Back in the 1960s when the Beatles were the hottest thing around, there was a rumor that Paul McCartney had died and was replaced with a double.</p>

If you listen carefully to the end of Strawberry Fields Forever, it sounds like Lennon says "I buried Paul" - which fed the rumor.</p>

Obviously, Paul McCartney is alive and well (thank goodness, I love his music).</p>

A more interesting rumor was about the band Klaatu. The records said "music by Klaatu, produced by Klaatu, etc." and didn't have the names of anyone in the band. They sounded a LOT like the Beatles, and it was rumored it was the Beatles reunited. The Klaatu song "Subrosa Subway" was a big hit on the radio and really sounded like the Beatles.</p>

Penn & Teller Bullshit did a program about the JFK assasination theories and shot them down nicely. FWIW.</p>

</p>
 
Wasn't there a rumor about a month ago claiming that Elvis Presley is still alive? lol</p>
 
lol loads of them. Also that Tupac Shakur couldn't handle the publicity and set up a fake shooting.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Max)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

lol loads of them. Also that Tupac Shakur couldn't handle the publicity and set up a fake shooting.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Yeah, I've read up on that one. It'd be cool if Tupac's shooting was a conspiracy and was still alive, but we all know he's dead. Although, there is alot of strange things about his death...Like the things that point to Sug being the killer.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Penn & Teller Bullshit did a program about the JFK assasination theories and shot them down nicely. FWIW.</p>

</p>

</div></p>

</p>

I'd be really interested to hear that...</p>
 
What about the TWA Flight 800 conspiracy?</p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Trans World Airlines (TWA) Flight 800, a Boeing 747-131, N93119, crashed on July 17, 1996, about 20:31 EDT (00:31, July 18 UTC), in the Atlantic Ocean near East Moriches, New York. TWA Flight 800 was a scheduled international passenger flight from John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), New York, New York, to Charles de Gaulle International Airport (CDG), Paris, France. The flight departed JFK about 20:19, with two pilots, two flight engineers, 14 flight attendants, and 212 passengers on board. All 230 people on board were killed, and the airplane was destroyed.<sup class="reference" id="_ref-ntsb_abstract_0">[1]</sup></p>

While investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) arrived on scene the following day, much initial speculation centered on a terrorist attack,<sup class="reference" id="_ref-time_mag_who_wishes_us_ill_0">[2]</sup><sup class="reference" id="_ref-cnn_bomb_0">[3]</sup> and consequently the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) initiated a parallel investigation into the crash. On November 18, 1997, the FBI announced that no evidence had been found of a criminal act,<sup class="reference" id="_ref-cnn_fbi_conclusions_0">[4]</sup> and the NTSB assumed sole control on the investigation.</p>

The NTSB investigation ended with the adoption of their final report on August 23, 2000. In it they concluded that the probable cause of the accident was "an explosion of the center wing fuel tank (CWT), resulting from ignition of the flammable fuel/air mixture in the tank. The source of ignition energy for the explosion could not be determined with certainty, but, of the sources evaluated by the investigation, the most likely was a short circuit outside of the CWT that allowed excessive voltage to enter it through electrical wiring associated with the fuel quantity indication system."<sup class="reference" id="_ref-ntsb_abstract_1">[1]</sup></p>

Many alternative theories exist as to the cause of this crash, most of which propose that evidence may exist that points to an external missile strike or on-board bomb, either as a terrorist act, or an unintentional shootdown by a U.S. Navy vessel.</div></p>

Source</p>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twa_flight_800</p>

I always found it to be quite interesting.</p>

</p>

</p>
 
Speaking of TWA 800 - did you read Nelson DeMille's Nightfall? An interesting, albeit fictional, take on it.</p>
 
I must have watched the Loose Change video about 9/11 ten times last year. Some of the points they make are interesting; others are ridiculously false.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Penn & Teller Bullshit did a program about the JFK assasination theories and shot them down nicely. FWIW.</p>

</p>

</div></p>

</p>

I'd be really interested to hear that...</p>

</div></p>

Penn basically listed a bunch of things that make the conspiracy theory work and then debuned them. Example - nobody can fire the kind of rifle Oswald used as many shots in 9 seconds (or whatever). Penn held up a gun like Oswald's, fired, reload, aim, fire, reload, aim, fire, etc., in less than the 9 seconds, no problem (and he's not even trained). They took a bunch of people out in the desert and recreated the scene shooting at a watermelon on the back of a car... The hit rate for these randomly selected (no special skills) people was higher than you'd expect. That kind of thing.</p>

And loose change is the most bogus thing I've seen in my life.</p>

</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane)</div><div class='quotemain'>And loose change is the most bogus thing I've seen in my life.</div></p>

The first time I saw it last year, it kind of freaked me out. But as you watch it over and over again, you start to see all the holes and fallacies in their argument.</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Speaking of TWA 800 - did you read Nelson DeMille's Nightfall? An interesting, albeit fictional, take on it.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Nope, but I might check it out, if I end up remotely close to a library. Is it an enjoyable read, or just merely interesting concept?</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JCB)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane)</div><div class='quotemain'>And loose change is the most bogus thing I've seen in my life.</div></p>

The first time I saw it last year, it kind of freaked me out. But as you watch it over and over again, you start to see all the holes and fallacies in their argument.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

It's absurd on the face of it. How can you think an administration that can't keep it's "torture" program or warrantless wiretap program a secret, keep something like a 9/11 conspiracy come true a secret?</p>

If this administration were that competent and clever, they'd have planted some WMDs to find (now that would be a story!).</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Penn & Teller Bullshit did a program about the JFK assasination theories and shot them down nicely. FWIW.</p>

</p>

</div></p>

</p>

I'd be really interested to hear that...</p>

</div></p>

Penn basically listed a bunch of things that make the conspiracy theory work and then debuned them. Example - nobody can fire the kind of rifle Oswald used as many shots in 9 seconds (or whatever). Penn held up a gun like Oswald's, fired, reload, aim, fire, reload, aim, fire, etc., in less than the 9 seconds, no problem (and he's not even trained). They took a bunch of people out in the desert and recreated the scene shooting at a watermelon on the back of a car... The hit rate for these randomly selected (no special skills) people was higher than you'd expect. That kind of thing.</p>

And loose change is the most bogus thing I've seen in my life.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Well how about the magic bullet? The fact that HLO wasn't even that good of a shooter? The way JFK's head was shot, and the way the pieces flew out:</p>

<div><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350" /></embed></object></div></p>

You could see pieces flying out of the back of his head, and Mrs. K even goes onto the back of the car, and tries to recover those pieces.</p>

My history teacher told us everything there is to know about this conspiracy. He showed us a video where she claims she was going on the back of the car because that's where the pieces flew out.</p>

There's so much about the assassination that just doesn't add up when you look at it the way the Gov't wants you to look at it.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kidd)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Speaking of TWA 800 - did you read Nelson DeMille's Nightfall? An interesting, albeit fictional, take on it.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Nope, but I might check it out, if I end up remotely close to a library. Is it an enjoyable read, or just merely interesting concept?</p>

</p>

</div></p>

It's a good read, though it's part of a series of his. It's decent as a stand-alone novel too.</p>

</p>
 
[quote name='peg182']</p>

[quote name='Denny Crane']</p>

[quote name='peg182']</p>

[quote name='Denny Crane']</p>

Penn & Teller Bullshit did a program about the JFK assasination theories and shot them down nicely. FWIW.</p>

</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

</p>

I'd be really interested to hear that...</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

Penn basically listed a bunch of things that make the conspiracy theory work and then debuned them. Example - nobody can fire the kind of rifle Oswald used as many shots in 9 seconds (or whatever). Penn held up a gun like Oswald's, fired, reload, aim, fire, reload, aim, fire, etc., in less than the 9 seconds, no problem (and he's not even trained). They took a bunch of people out in the desert and recreated the scene shooting at a watermelon on the back of a car... The hit rate for these randomly selected (no special skills) people was higher than you'd expect. That kind of thing.</p>

And loose change is the most bogus thing I've seen in my life.</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

</p>

Well how about the magic bullet? The fact that HLO wasn't even that good of a shooter? The way JFK's head was shot, and the way the pieces flew out:</p>

<div><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350" /></embed></object></div></p>

You could see pieces flying out of the back of his head, and Mrs. K even goes onto the back of the car, and tries to recover those pieces.</p>

My history teacher told us everything there is to know about this conspiracy. He showed us a video where she claims she was going on the back of the car because that's where the pieces flew out.</p>

There's so much about the assassination that just doesn't add up when you look at it the way the Gov't wants you to look at it.</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

</p>

http://www.skepticwiki.org/index.php/JFK_Assassination</p>
<h3><span class="mw-headline">The "Magic Bullet"</span></h3>

Another popular claim by conspiracy theorists is the "magic bullet" theory. They claim that there is just no way the second shot could have caused the wounds to both JFK and Governor Connally the way it did. The bullet entered JFK's back and came out his throat; then, the conspiracy theorists say, the bullet would have to change directions, and then move a couple of feet to the right to enter Governor Connally's right shoulder. Since bullets obviously don't do that, they say there must have been a second shooter other than Oswald.</p>

The problem is that the conspiracy theorists put JFK and Governor Connally in the wrong position relative to each other. They put Connally directly in front of JFK, at the same level, and both facing front. Examining the Zapruder film (and this is even more obvious in the Myers reconstruction) shows clearly that Connally is seated, not directly in front of Kennedy, but shifted to the left. Also, JFK was seated on a riser that kept him at a higher level so he could wave to the crowds. Finally, JFK was leaning forward and Connally was turned to his right. When all of these are taken into account and the men's actual positions are examined, the bullet wounds line up in a straight line.</p>

</p>
 
Still, even if we he was "leaning forward", how could the bullet go from a position in his back well below his neck and come out of his neck? How much can he lean forward, really?
bogus1.gif
</p>
 
Hm..


Well, I'm halfway through this book, "The Man Who Knew Too Much". And shit, is it interesting....everything in that book points to something strange going on, whether or not there was more than one shooter, and whether or not LHO did it.

We all know LHO was in involved, of course, but there's a lot in question: Such as, how was CIA/FBI involved? Soviets? Ex-Cubans?

It seems as if many things were left wide open in that case, and many people responsible were not punished.

It's also interesting finding out the why, too. I'd say that's the most important thing about this - not the who, or the how, or even what happened (such as how many shooters, where he got shot, etc).
 
I took a class on this actually, a POSC elective....


The Magic Bullet Theory, simplified, is based on the false assumption that Connolly and Kennedy were sitting directly in a line.

If you want to read more on it:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

This website is made by the Professor I took the class with....
 
sbt3.jpg



Pic of the LIMO.....Kennedy was sitting "higher up" than Connally, as evident by the difference in heigth of the seats.


robinson1.jpg


Connally sitting inboard of Kennedy... Kennedy not directly behind Connally.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vintage @ Jul 10 2008, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I took a class on this actually, a POSC elective....


The Magic Bullet Theory, simplified, is based on the false assumption that Connolly and Kennedy were sitting directly in a line.

If you want to read more on it:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

This website is made by the Professor I took the class with....</div>

I know, after looking into it, I've actually found pictures of behind the car - where it appears Connolly is sitting to the front and slightly to the left.

inboard.jpg

I believe that might be the picture in question.

But other than the actual shooting, there's millions of other strange "coincidences" that suggest that something was up with the conspiracy, and that LHO definitely wasn't the only one involved.
 
Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the right one. That would be that JFK was president, and there's always all kinds of international and domestic intrigue going on. Oswald surely killed Kennedy, and all the rest looks like people trying make a buck selling books and movies.
 
There's also false testimony that was given by witnesses.

I believe....the lady in the red dress is one such example. She claimed that immediately after the shooting, she ran up to the grassy knoll, looked over, and saw someone running away. The important thing here is she said she did so immediately after the shooting.

Yet, there is a picture of Dealy Plaza taken minutes after the shooting, and she is still sitting on the ground, near the curb.... so she didn't immediately head up to the Grassy Knoll.

I don't think she is purposely lying.

Rather, when you witness an event such as an assassination, you lose perspective of time, you don't think clearly, and you probably don't see things accurately because of the stress of the situation.

Witness statements surrounding the assassination of JFK are very inaccurate. There are more examples, if you wish to look it up.
 
I was watching something on the History Channel on this topic a while back than determined that the shot was possible and guy with similar training to LHO hit a nearly identical shot on his first try.

A few of the things of note where the difference in heights between Kennedy and the Governor and the position of Kennedy's right arm. That explains the differences in the photo that Pegs posted here. The arrow location on Kennedy's jacket is correct, but his arm was elevated, which moved his jacket up in the back and the HC show explained how the hole in the jacket lined up with the projected location of the exit wound, which I think was lower than the photo that Pegs posted.

If I remember right, the show analyzed a few different video views of that event and used illustration software to recreate the entire scene. The only thing they couldn't figure out from the videos was the location of the Governor's left forearm and hand. The end of the show was a similarly trained marksman taking the same shot. He perfectly replicated Kennedy's wounds and the shoulder wound on the Governor. The only thing he was unable to do was get the bullet to lodge in the Governor's leg as the bullet hit either a rib or his wrist on the way out and only bounced off his thigh.
 
JFK died 25 years before I was born. I have no idea if there was a conspiracy, I'm inclined to think not, because I think most if not all conspiracy theories are inherently bullshit, especially the 9/11 one, which is the worst of them all. Absolutely no credibility whatsoever.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (agoo101284 @ Jul 10 2008, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I was watching something on the History Channel on this topic a while back than determined that the shot was possible and guy with similar training to LHO hit a nearly identical shot on his first try.

A few of the things of note where the difference in heights between Kennedy and the Governor and the position of Kennedy's right arm. That explains the differences in the photo that Pegs posted here. The arrow location on Kennedy's jacket is correct, but his arm was elevated, which moved his jacket up in the back and the HC show explained how the hole in the jacket lined up with the projected location of the exit wound, which I think was lower than the photo that Pegs posted.

If I remember right, the show analyzed a few different video views of that event and used illustration software to recreate the entire scene. The only thing they couldn't figure out from the videos was the location of the Governor's left forearm and hand. The end of the show was a similarly trained marksman taking the same shot. He perfectly replicated Kennedy's wounds and the shoulder wound on the Governor. The only thing he was unable to do was get the bullet to lodge in the Governor's leg as the bullet hit either a rib or his wrist on the way out and only bounced off his thigh.</div>

I saw that, too. They used the Zapruter film, frame by frame, to position 3D models of the car and the people and found the shot from the schoolbook repository hit both Kennedy and Connolly without any magic to it.

http://www.pennandteller.com/03/coolstuff/...racytheory.html

Bullshit!: Conspiracy Theory - 3/21/05

We're shooting the last batch of "Bullshit!s" for Showtime. It's on Conspiracy Theories, and we're using the research Penn did for "How to Play with your Food," about Dr. Luis Alvarez's explanation of why Kennedy's head moved towards origin of the shot instead of away from it.

Alvarez proved it was counterintuitive physics. Roughly: the movement imparted by the goop pouring out the exit wound created a sort of jet stream that was stronger than that of the tiny hole made by the entrance wound. So the head moved back towards the shooter. Alvarez tested his theory by taking a melon, to represent brain, and wrapping it in fiberglass tape, to represent skull. He shot his melon and, as he predicted, it rocketed right back towards the source of the gunfire.

We wanted to reproduce this experiment ourselves, full action, highspeed camera. So I went with the crew to a gun shop with a firing range. The place was packed with people. More employees than Wal-Mart at xmas and several customers for every salesperson. And this was a Monday afternoon. On weekends there's a line out the door.

I met my instructor, Tony, a silver-haired, tan, 20 year veteran of the police force (where he taught firearms skills). Since retiring from the police, Tony has been teaching marksmanship and gun safety to hobbyists for fifteen years.

He's disgusted and incredulous at the sheer ignorance of anybody who doubts Oswald could have killed Kennedy.

"It was easy shot. Stevie Wonder could have made it," he said and reeled off the exact distances of Oswald's three shots. "I took my gun club out on the desert. We used the exact same make and model of rifle. We set up all the same distances and elevations. Nineteen of the guys hit all three shots, and the other four guys couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a coal shovel. And don't forget, Oswald only hit two out of three."

While the crew set up, Tony took me into another range for some practice. The Mannlicher Carcano rifle was a duplicate of Oswald's, except that it didn't have a telescopic sight; I was holding in my hands, not on a stand, which makes aiming harder. I shot the target smack through the heart three times. "Okay, that's enough practice," said Tony.

I went into the gun safety classroom to don wardrobe and makeup. The classroom walls were covered with diagrams showing how bullets fire and how to ensure safe handling, and with credentials, certificates of appreciation, and awards from police organizations.

Dressed, I was ready to shoot, in both senses. The crew and I set up two melons on stands. The one representing JFK was wrapped in fiberglass tape; the one representing Jackie was wearing a pink pillbox hat. We photographed me loading the gun, then took an "art" shot of me shooting from the point of view of the melon (using blanks, of course). Finally it was time really to shoot the melon.

"This gun shoots a little high, so aim the sights about an inch below where you want it," said Tony. I aimed and squeezed the trigger. A perfect hit. As Alvarez said it would, the melon goop "brain" blew out the front and shot the melon backwards. As an added bonus, the goop knocked off Jackie Melon Kennedy's pillbox hat. I shot again, hit a little off center, but even then, the melon came towards me and the pillbox blew off. I shot one final time. Dead center, melon back at me, the most perfect shot of all. Our director/producer Star Price asked if I wanted to shoot some more. I asked him if he had the shot he needed. He did. So I thanked everybody and left.

It's hard to digest the idea that a pallid loser, Lee Harvey Oswald could annihilate radiant John Fitzgerald Kennedy, the most powerful and glamorous man on the earth. But after talking to Tony and blasting the brains out of a tape-wrapped melon, I'm triply convinced that the Kennedy assassination can be best described like this:

Oswald and Kennedy were men of flesh and blood. One of them pointed a gun at the other and shot.

Teller
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ Jul 10 2008, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't think anyone read my posts...</div>


What are some of the other coincidences you'd like to discuss?
 

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