Jimmy Butler wants out? (He does.)

[hoopsjock]

You can't account for Butler's contract AND Dieng and expect major cap relief.

Nobody in the league has that much in expiring contracts. The focus of the trade should be in two parts.

1: getting value for Butler - and that would be Turner/Trent/draft pick

2: getting cap relief for Dieng - and that's an expiring contract in Aminu and a shorter/less expensive deal in Leonard.

The rub is whether Minnesota values Turner or if he would just be considered matching salary. Supposedly Thibbs loves Turner, so I'm betting on them considering him as a valuable piece. If they don't feel that way, the trade doesn't work and it's all moot.

Once again, I don't think you can look at trades in sections like that especially when if you put 1 and 2 together it is a brutally awful trade for Minnesota. Splitting it up looks good for us but not them. They have the star player available for trade so they can set the parameters here. I gave a couple of suggestions (and so have others) as to how they could possibly get a little of all 4 things they want.

Edit: If you want, give me another team that would possibly be interested in Butler and I'll try to show you an example of what I mean.

 

[chzbrgr]

I guess it really depends on whether you view Collins as a power forward or a center.

If he's a center, I'm not opposed to trading him. We already made a substantial investment in Nurk.

If he's a power forward, I don't think you trade him for a potential one year rental. We're already pretty thin at power forward, and moving him would really put us in a tenuous situation. I guess it really depends on whether you believe in the future of Biggie.

Position to me is a bad way to make decisions. The kid can play 4 or 5 it doesn’t really matter where you put him, what matters is he just isn’t very good. Our young guys either look like busts or are unknowns, our vets are just bad and our pick (after we add butler) will be at best in the 20-25 range. Which is why this trade with minny seems so unlikely.

 

[Sarni]

So they apparently offered Butler for Middleton. Why did Bucks turn that down?

 

[THE HCP]

Didn't want him to walk next year?

 

[hoopsjock]

Didn't want him to walk next year?

Middleton is a free agent too.

 

[THE HCP]

Middleton is a free agent too.

Better chance to keep Middleton?

 

[hoopsjock]

Better chance to keep Middleton?

Maybe, but they have several bad contracts already that may prevent them from signing either.

 

[Sarni]

Better chance to keep Middleton?

Who knows what it’s going to cost? If Middleton costs then $25million or more a year then they would be better off without him long term.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I still think Portland has a chance:
Ethan J. Skolnick: “So I don’t think there’s a market for Jimmy Butler right now because the teams that I thought could get really involved here—Philadelphia, I’ve heard they haven’t put Dario Saric on the table, they haven’t put Markelle Fultz on the table. You’re not making a deal without putting those two guys on the table. … The Clippers, I’ve heard, have not put Tobias Harris on the table, and I don’t know what else they’re front-lining a deal with. I’ve heard all along [the Clippers/Butler stuff] is overstated.”
http://heatbeatmiami.com/podcast/177-jimmy-butler-trade-saga-w-ethan-skolnick-5-reasons-sports/

 

[Scalma]

I still think Portland has a chance:
Ethan J. Skolnick: “So I don’t think there’s a market for Jimmy Butler right now because the teams that I thought could get really involved here—Philadelphia, I’ve heard they haven’t put Dario Saric on the table, they haven’t put Markelle Fultz on the table. You’re not making a deal without putting those two guys on the table. … The Clippers, I’ve heard, have not put Tobias Harris on the table, and I don’t know what else they’re front-lining a deal with. I’ve heard all along [the Clippers/Butler stuff] is overstated.”
http://heatbeatmiami.com/podcast/177-jimmy-butler-trade-saga-w-ethan-skolnick-5-reasons-sports/

What’s our best offer short of including CJ?

This is the best I could come up with.



Plus our pick next year to Minnesota, lottery protected. We could even throw in Biggie.

Sacramento has been interested in Harkless.

Minnesota is able to dump Dieng while picking up Simons and a first. Turner is a Thibs guy who’ll turn into an expiring after this season.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

What’s our best offer short of including CJ?

This is the best I could come up with.

View attachment 22583

Plus our pick next year to Minnesota, lottery protected.

I dont think we can trade simons until like december or something? Im probably wrong, but I thought after you sign someone they cant be traded for 6 months.

 

[hoopsjock]

I dont think we can trade simons until like december or something? Im probably wrong, but I thought after you sign someone they cant be traded for 6 months.

With drafted rookies it's 30 days.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

With drafted rookies it's 30 days.

Thanks, so FA’s is 6 months or is that just in my head?

 

[Scalma]

It’d pretty much be Dieng for Turner, and Butler for Simons and a first.

Dieng for Turner works for Minnesota because Thibs doesn’t really like Dieng, while Turner is his guy and is also owed less money.

Not sure Simons and a lottery protected first is enough for Butler though.

 

[royo]

Am I wrong or Jimmy didn't like it in Chicago cos their coach wanted to depend on 3pointers too much? Stotts wants his team to hit even more 3s than last year. Butler wouldnt stay here for long.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Am I wrong or Jimmy didn't like it in Chicago cos their coach wanted to depend on 3pointers too much? Stotts wants his team to hit even more 3s than last year. Butler wouldnt stay here for long.

The question is to me, will Jimmy be happy anywhere? lol

 

[TBpup]

The question is to me, will Jimmy be happy anywhere? lol

Yes...in Mrs. HCP's guest bedroom.

 

[THE HCP]

Yes...in Mrs. HCP's guest bedroom.

From WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY downtown......BAM!

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

From WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY downtown......BAM!

swishbombs....

 

[hoopsjock]

Thanks, so FA’s is 6 months or is that just in my head?

It's December 15th for most free agents, and I think January 15th for restricted free agents kept. There are some new rules like when a player signs a super max he can't be traded for a year. Extensions have a longer period too.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

It's December 15th for most free agents, and I think January 15th for restricted free agents kept. There are some new rules like when a player signs a super max he can't be traded for a year. Extensions have a longer period too.

Pretty sure that it's January 15th for any free agent signed using a salary cap exception, including FA's who re-sign using any form of bird rights, and FA's who switch teams via an MLE signing, and December 15th is only for FA's signed using cap space.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Butler should make whatever statements hurt his trade value. Make it easier for teams to trade for him and give up less so his new team can keep talent to win.

Sucks now for Minny, but they had their chance to fix this at the start of the summer when he first told them he wouldn't play with Towns/Wiggins. There is a reason this franchise has been a joke for decades.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

It’d pretty much be Dieng for Turner, and Butler for Simons and a first.

Dieng for Turner works for Minnesota because Thibs doesn’t really like Dieng, while Turner is his guy and is also owed less money.

Not sure Simons and a lottery protected first is enough for Butler though.

Turner is worth much more than Dieng since his contract has one less year. That has to be included in considering the return for Butler.

Same rationale that an expiring contract is worth much more than Meyers.

 

[Boob-No-More]

What’s our best offer short of including CJ?

This is the best I could come up with.

View attachment 22583

Plus our pick next year to Minnesota, lottery protected. We could even throw in Biggie.

Sacramento has been interested in Harkless.

Minnesota is able to dump Dieng while picking up Simons and a first. Turner is a Thibs guy who’ll turn into an expiring after this season.

I think MIN would prefer a slightly modified version (Harkless to SAC) of the trade I previously proposed (that you shit all over):

Plus our 2019 first round pick to MIN and one or two futures 2nd round picks to MIN was my original proposal.

So, change that to this by moving Harkless to SAC:



And divide up the picks to make both MIN and SAC happy.

Why would MIN prefer this trade over yours (basically replace Turner with Leonard and Aminu). Several reasons. First, it saves them even more money. Meyers and Aminu make a few hundred K less than Turner this season, but Aminu is an expiring. So that saves them over $7 million next year. With Butler and Dieng gone, plus Gibson and Aminu both expiring, they shave a ton of salary off their payroll next summer.

The whole "Turner is a Thibs guy" is WAY overstated. Glen Taylor is calling the shots on this Butler trade, not Tom Thibodeau and I'm pretty sure Evan Turner isn't a Glen Taylor guy. Plus, Aminu and Meyers give them somethings they actually need - 3-point shooting, for one. MIN was dead last in the league in made 3-pointers last season. MIN was also below league average (19th) in 3FG%. Adding Evan Turner (.318 3FG%) would only make things worse. Aminu (.369) and Meyers (.423) both shot above league average 3FG%, and combined made over 3x as many 3-pointers as Turner.

If Taylor wants to throw Thibs a bone, Aminu also qualifies as a Thibs type of player - but one who can actually make an open 3-pointer. And, after trading Dieng and with Patton injured, they are going to need a back up center. Meyers is Meyers, but he's a big body that can give them 12 or 13 MPG and knock down some 3-pointers, until Patton is healthy.

So, this trade saves them even more money and gives them two players that address short term needs, one hot prospect (Simons) and a future asset (1st round pick).

BNM

 

[42N8Bounce]

Pretty sure that it's January 15th for any free agent signed using a salary cap exception, including FA's who re-sign using any form of bird rights, and FA's who switch teams via an MLE signing, and December 15th is only for FA's signed using cap space.

Sounds like you nailed it PtldPlatypus -

Per Larry Coon's NBA Salary CAP FAQ:
December 15 - Players who signed a contract on or before September 15 can be traded.
January 15 - Players who signed a contract on or before October 15 can be traded. (applies only to Larry Bird or Early Bird free agents who re-sign with their prior team, the team is over the cap, and the player receives a raise greater than 20%)

Edit: .. and draft picks can't be traded until 30 days after they sign. Lots more additional info here on trade restrictions.

 

[Scalma]

I think MIN would prefer a slightly modified version (Harkless to SAC) of the trade I previously proposed (that you shit all over):

Plus our 2019 first round pick to MIN and one or two futures 2nd round picks to MIN was my original proposal.

So, change that to this by moving Harkless to SAC:

View attachment 22585

And divide up the picks to make both MIN and SAC happy.

Why would MIN prefer this trade over yours (basically replace Turner with Leonard and Aminu). Several reasons. First, it saves them even more money. Meyers and Aminu make a few hundred K less than Turner this season, but Aminu is an expiring. So that saves them over $7 million next year. With Butler and Dieng gone, plus Gibson and Aminu both expiring, they shave a ton of salary off their payroll next summer.

The whole "Turner is a Thibs guy" is WAY overstated. Glen Taylor is calling the shots on this Butler trade, not Tom Thibodeau and I'm pretty sure Evan Turner isn't a Glen Taylor guy. Plus, Aminu and Meyers give them somethings they actually need - 3-point shooting, for one. MIN was dead last in the league in made 3-pointers last season. MIN was also below league average (19th) in 3FG%. Adding Evan Turner (.318 3FG%) would only make things worse. Aminu (.369) and Meyers (.423) both shot above league average 3FG%, and combined made over 3x as many 3-pointers as Turner.

If Taylor wants to throw Thibs a bone, Aminu also qualifies as a Thibs type of player - but one who can actually make an open 3-pointer. And, after trading Dieng and with Patton injured, they are going to need a back up center. Meyers is Meyers, but he's a big body that can give them 12 or 13 MPG and knock down some 3-pointers, until Patton is healthy.

So, this trade saves them even more money and gives them two players that address short term needs, one hot prospect (Simons) and a future asset (1st round pick).

BNM

The only difference between your revised trade and mine is you took out a guy Thibs is actually on record about, multiple times, and replaced him with an expiring they have no control over, and Meyers Leonard, who is the antithesis of Thibs. I won’t even get into how you managed to make Portland worse in the process. Good job though!

 

[Boob-No-More]

The only difference between your revised trade and mine is you took out a guy Thibs is actually on record about, multiple times, and replaced him with an expiring they have no control over, and Meyers Leonard, who is the antithesis of Thibs. I won’t even get into how you managed to make Portland worse in the process. Good job though!

You really think Thibs is still calling the shots in MIN? Glen Taylor is, and he would MUCH rather have Aminu/Leonard than Turner - for the cost savings alone.

Plus, it would help address one of their biggest weaknesses - MIN's need for 3-point shooting. Sure, take the least prolific 3-point shooting team in the entire league and make them worse by replacing Butler with Turner. Yeah, that's a great strategy in today's NBA.

So, getting Jimmy Butler without giving up any of Dame, C.J., Nurk or Collins makes us worse? Ok, I think we're done here.

Sure, I'd love to dump Turner on them (or anyone), but other than the fact that their coach (who is no longer calling the shots) once complimented him, there is no practical reason why they would want a guy who makes $17.9 million this year, $18.6 million next year and can't hit a 3-pointer, over two guys who combined will make $17.6 million this year, $11.3 million next year and can actually make an open 3-pointer. Taylor wants to go young and taking on Turner and his contract delays the process. No way in hell does Glen Taylor want to "control" (aka: get stuck with) Evan Turner and his contract for two years. The whole point of getting rid of Dieng is to accelerate their plans. Getting Aminu and Leonard instead of Turner gets them where they want to be sooner.

BNM

 

[Scalma]

You really think Thibs is still calling the shots in MIN? Glen Taylor is, and he would MUCH rather have Aminu/Leonard than Turner - for the cost savings alone.
BNM

If Taylor is calling the shots why is Butler still in Minnesota? Why hasn’t Thibs been fired?

As long as he’s in Minnesota, Thibs is in charge imo. He’s president of basketball ops. That’s his job. Now Taylor can tell him to get a deal done, but he’s not the one that’s ultimately going to decide on which offer to actually accept imo. If he is, Thibs will be packing his bags as well.

 

[Boob-No-More]

If Taylor is calling the shots why is Butler still in Minnesota? Why hasn’t Thibs been fired?

As long as he’s in Minnesota, Thibs is in charge imo. He’s president of basketball ops. That’s his job. Now Taylor can tell him to get a deal done, but he’s not the one that’s ultimately going to decide on which offer to actually accept imo. If he is, Thibs will be packing his bags as well.

Because Taylor hasn't approved any of the offers yet.

If Thibs was still in charge, they wouldn't even be listening to offers for Butler.

The decision is Taylor's. He's the one who signs the checks. Thibs hasn't been fired because his main job is coach.

BNM

 

[Scalma]

Because Taylor hasn't approved any of the offers yet.

If Thibs was still in charge, they wouldn't even be listening to offers for Butler.

The decision is Taylor's. He's the one who signs the checks. Thibs hasn't been fired because his main job is coach.

BNM

So the president of basketball ops part of his job is what? How do you know Taylor even knows the league well enough to make a call on such a major move?