Jimmy Butler wants out? (He does.)

[blue9]

Irving for Thomas (who was perceived as a high-level player at the time).

Ha! I've totally forgotten about Thomas. He bamboozled the league into thinking he was a good player! Javale McGee of PGs.
I do suppose that, at the time of the trade, it was comparable to what a Butler/CJ trade would be today.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

It's been clarified that Miami did not offer Richardson AND Adebayo, only Richardson and a draft pick. Houston only offered Gordon; not willing to give Gordon AND Tucker. Clippers will not give up Tobias Harris, but will give Gallinari or package including Beverly and Teodosic.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

What hung up the deal with Miami at last moment is that they would not take on extra salary (Dieng?).

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I don't think that Trent or Simons have any more value today than they had on draft day, so I'm not sure what we have to offer besides draft picks, some salary relief, Harkless (with durability concerns) or Turner, and of course Collins. Don't see how we could get him without giving up Collins.

 

[Boob-No-More]

You're wrong

That's your opinion, with nothing to back it up. Just saying it does not make it true.

but this is too long-winded to easily reply too. Your segments are made for news, not conversation.

I offered my opinion and some evidence to back it up. All you have offered is your opinion. If you don't want to refute the data I posted, at least provide some of your own to support your opinion. As is, all you've stated is (obviously paraphrasing), "you're wrong because I say so". Your opinion is no more valid than mine, and until you provide something to back it up, less so.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

I don't think that Trent or Simons have any more value today than they had on draft day, so I'm not sure what we have to offer besides draft picks, some salary relief, Harkless (with durability concerns) or Turner, and of course Collins. Don't see how we could get him without giving up Collins.

Maybe a little more perceived value, but you're right, they haven't proven anything.

The reason I say perceived value is even on draft day, the opinion of many scouts was that if Simons had waited a year, he would have been a lottery pick in 2019. In both summer league and preseason, Simons has done nothing to hurt that impression. The general consensus is that, in spite of his age, lack of experience and slight build, he's actually closer to being ready than most would have projected on draft night. Basically, at this point, he should have the same trade value as a 2019 late lottery pick, basically something in the 10 - 15 range, and as far as I can tell, no one else has offered a package for Butler that includes a top 15 2019 draft pick.

Trent Jr. looked great in summer league, but has looked lost in preseason. GMs recently voted him as the 4th best steal in the draft. So, he does have some perceived value, but at this point, that perceived value is, at best, a late 1st round pick, or more likely an early 2nd round pick (i.e. about where we picked him).

At this point, I'd be willing to give up Collins in a deal for Butler. Collins has great defensive instincts and I believe his shot will come around, but he has hands of stone. He REALLY struggles catching the ball, and at times has difficulty controlling rebounds. I mentioned this during summer league and hoped it was just due to nerves, trying to make his move before he catches the ball, etc, and hoped it would improve. It hasn't. If anything, he looks even worse in preseason. It just further proves he's the anti-Meyers. He has all the defensive instincts and skills Meyers lacks, but one thing Meyers does well is catch the ball (he also sets good screens). What he does with it after he catches it is a topic for a different discussion, but if you could graft Meyers' hands onto Collins body, you might have something special.

BNM

 

[BonesJones]

That's your opinion, with nothing to back it up. Just saying it does not make it true.



I offered my opinion and some evidence to back it up. All you have offered is your opinion. If you don't want to refute the data I posted, at least provide some of your own to support your opinion. As is, all you've stated is (obviously paraphrasing), "you're wrong because I say so". Your opinion is no more valid than mine, and until you provide something to back it up, less so.

BNM

It's impossible to address your posts because they're too long. That's my point. I can, but I don't care enough.

 

[Boob-No-More]

It's impossible to address your posts because they're too long. That's my point. I can, but I don't care enough.

Then your opinion holds no weight. If you can't back up what you say, don't bother saying it. You don't have to refute everything I said, but you have offered NOTHING to support your opinion, while calling mine "wrong". An unsupported opinion is worth less than the time it takes to type it. You cared enough to respond multiple times (telling me I'm wrong, but not bothering to tell me why). Maybe in the future you should care enough to actually support what you say.

BNM

 

[hoopsjock]

You're wrong but this is too long-winded to easily reply too. Your segments are made for news, not conversation.

Richardson is a good player, he's a better asset than anything we have bar Dame and CJ. That's the worst thing about our roster, it's not even that they are all overpaid, it's that they have almost no value in the market. Even fairly good player like Harkless has neutral value at best. We got nothing to build trade offers around. Even Bucks could offer someone like Brogdon and immediately beat any offer we can come up with.

Personally, I think the jury is still out on Richardson. He had an okay year last year but it's one of those situations where people are expecting him to break out at some point and his value depends on whether you think that is going to happen or not. He just turned 25 so he's still young enough that a big jump is possible while at the same time he could be what he is basically going to be for his career. If he doesn't have a big jump he's still a decent player but not that great of an asset. He's not making that much less than Harkless and is only a few months younger. Both provide solid defense but if Harkless can shot +40% on 3 pointers consistently there is definitely a case that could be made that he is a comparable player in terms of worth to a team.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Personally, I think the jury is still out on Richardson. He had an okay year last year but it's one of those situations where people are expecting him to break out at some point and his value depends on whether you think that is going to happen or not. He just turned 25 so he's still young enough that a big jump is possible while at the same time he could be what he is basically going to be for his career. If he doesn't have a big jump he's still a decent player but not that great of an asset. He's not making that much less than Harkless and is only a few months younger. Both provide solid defense but if Harkless can shot +40% on 3 pointers consistently there is definitely a case that could be made that he is a comparable player in terms of worth to a team.

I think if he was going to break out, last season was the year it was going to happen. Last year was his first as a starter and he averaged over 33 MPG, if he was going to take up his game a notch, last year was the year to do it. He did see marginal improvement in his scoring, but hardly what anyone would call breaking out.

He's now entering his fourth NBA season, and as you mentioned, he's 25. That's not old, but for a 4-year college player, if they are going to break out, it would have happened by now. He may continue to improve incrementally, but this is not a Jermaine O'Neil situation where he came into the league as a teenager and didn't get much PT his first three seasons. He played nearly 4000 minutes in his four years in college (three as a starter) and now has over 5000 minutes of NBA experience under his belt. At this point, if he hasn't reached his peak, he's damn close.

BNM

 

[BonesJones]

Then your opinion holds no weight. If you can't back up what you say, don't bother saying it. You don't have to refute everything I said, but you have offered NOTHING to support your opinion, while calling mine "wrong". An unsupported opinion is worth less than the time it takes to type it. You cared enough to respond multiple times (telling me I'm wrong, but not bothering to tell me why). Maybe in the future you should care enough to actually support what you say.

BNM

So is your goal to try to win arguments by making such long-winded posts that people don't even want to respond?

Nice.

 

[BonesJones]

I think if he was going to break out, last season was the year it was going to happen. Last year was his first as a starter and he averaged over 33 MPG, if he was going to take up his game a notch, last year was the year to do it. He did see marginal improvement in his scoring, but hardly what anyone would call breaking out.

He's now entering his fourth NBA season, and as you mentioned, he's 25. That's not old, but for a 4-year college player, if they are going to break out, it would have happened by now. He may continue to improve incrementally, but this is not a Jermaine O'Neil situation where he came into the league as a teenager and didn't get much PT his first three seasons. He played nearly 4000 minutes in his four years in college (three as a starter) and now has over 5000 minutes of NBA experience under his belt. At this point, if he hasn't reached his peak, he's damn close.

BNM

You forget that we're comparing them to our mediocre trade assets...

Adebeyo has shown more promise than Collins. Richardson is better than Aminu, Harkless, and Collins.

 

[Scalma]

So is your goal to try to win arguments by making such long-winded posts that people don't even want to respond?

Nice.

I’m liking this new brand.

 

[Boob-No-More]

So is your goal to try to win arguments by making such long-winded posts that people don't even want to respond?

Nice.

No, my goal is to support my opinions and not just state them as fact. I even told you you don't have to refute the points I made, but at least offer SOMETHING to support your opinion. Just telling someone they are "wrong" is not a discussion.

Is your goal to repeatedly spout unsupported opinions in the hope someone will accept them as fact?

BNM

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Maybe a little more perceived value, but you're right, they haven't proven anything.

The reason I say perceived value is even on draft day, the opinion of many scouts was that if Simons had waited a year, he would have been a lottery pick in 2019. In both summer league and preseason, Simons has done nothing to hurt that impression. The general consensus is that, in spite of his age, lack of experience and slight build, he's actually closer to being ready than most would have projected on draft night. Basically, at this point, he should have the same trade value as a 2019 late lottery pick, basically something in the 10 - 15 range, and as far as I can tell, no one else has offered a package for Butler that includes a top 15 2019 draft pick.

Trent Jr. looked great in summer league, but has looked lost in preseason. GMs recently voted him as the 4th best steal in the draft. So, he does have some perceived value, but at this point, that perceived value is, at best, a late 1st round pick, or more likely an early 2nd round pick (i.e. about where we picked him).

At this point, I'd be willing to give up Collins in a deal for Butler. Collins has great defensive instincts and I believe his shot will come around, but he has hands of stone. He REALLY struggles catching the ball, and at times has difficulty controlling rebounds. I mentioned this during summer league and hoped it was just due to nerves, trying to make his move before he catches the ball, etc, and hoped it would improve. It hasn't. If anything, he looks even worse in preseason. It just further proves he's the anti-Meyers. He has all the defensive instincts and skills Meyers lacks, but one thing Meyers does well is catch the ball (he also sets good screens). What he does with it after he catches it is a topic for a different discussion, but if you could graft Meyers' hands onto Collins body, you might have something special.

BNM

Yeh, I probably overstated on lack of value for those two; I get too pessimistic sometimes. I agree with you on Collins; I'm worried Olshey may be too emotionally invested in him though.

 

[Boob-No-More]

You forget that we're comparing them to our mediocre trade assets...

Adebeyo has shown more promise than Collins. Richardson is better than Aminu, Harkless, and Collins.

You forget what MIN wants - proven veterans, top prospects, future assets, cap relief.

The latest report was that Adebayo wasn't even included in the package MIA offered. Even if he was, he'd be no more than KAT's back up. So, no top prospect in MIA's offer.

They also refused to take on Dieng's contract. So, no cap relief.

Richardson is, at best, marginally better than each of Aminu, Harkless and Collins, but he's not better than a package that includes all three or even two of the three. He's not grotesquely overpaid, but he's not a bargain either. Plus, he's owed $42 million over the next four seasons. Some will try to spin that as a positive, which it would be if he's underpaid. He is not.

Aminu has one year and less than $7 million left on his contract. Harkless has two years and $21 million left on his contract. Collins is on a cheap rookie scale contract. And all three of them come with their Bird Rights, which means any team that gets them would have the upper hand in resigning them, should they wish, most likely to less than what Richardson makes. Or, MIN could let them go for the cap relief they are supposed to desire.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

I’m liking this new brand.

Of course you are. You also prefer unsupported pot shots over well supported opinions.

BNM

 

[hoopsjock]

We still have an advantage over other teams if they are unwilling to take Dieng on as part of the deal, even if our offer isn't as good.

As for Miami, they are in a weird situation with their 1st round pick. They can offer their 2019 1st rounder but they can't protect it unless it is worded like lottery protected for 2019 and if not conveyed turns into a 2023 1st rounder. Minnesota isn't going to want a pick 5 years from now. We have all our future 1sts so we can offer all kinds of combinations to make it happen (if they want picks).

 

[jlprk]

Is your goal to repeatedly spout unsupported opinions in the hope someone will accept them as fact?

Why yes. Look up "sports message board" in your Funk & Wagnall's.

 

[Scalma]

Of course you are. You also prefer unsupported pot shots over well supported opinions.

BNM

I just farted.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I just farted.

And you opinions stink so bad, no one even noticed.

BNM

 

[Sarni]

We still have an advantage over other teams if they are unwilling to take Dieng on as part of the deal, even if our offer isn't as good.

As for Miami, they are in a weird situation with their 1st round pick. They can offer their 2019 1st rounder but they can't protect it unless it is worded like lottery protected for 2019 and if not conveyed turns into a 2023 1st rounder. Minnesota isn't going to want a pick 5 years from now. We have all our future 1sts so we can offer all kinds of combinations to make it happen (if they want picks).

They don’t really have to put any protections on it. If they acquire Butler essentially for Richardson and Adebayo then bar a long injury to Butler and another important rotation player they won’t be worse than 6th seed. That pick will be between 18 and 25, not that valuable.

 

[Sarni]

Wolves apparently want Gordon and Tucker for Butler from Rockets. His value is really, really low.

 

[BonesJones]

What...

 

[hoopsjock]

They don’t really have to put any protections on it. If they acquire Butler essentially for Richardson and Adebayo then bar a long injury to Butler and another important rotation player they won’t be worse than 6th seed. That pick will be between 18 and 25, not that valuable.

There are new lottery rules this year. I doubt Miami would give up an unprotected pick but I guess they did give up 2 for Dragic so anything is possible.

 

[Scalma]

And you opinions stink so bad, no one even noticed.

BNM

I just farted again.

Scalma

 

[hoopsjock]

What...

The only thing I can think of is that he wants them to trade KAT and Wiggins. KAT is going to be really hard to move this year though since he signed his extension and now has the poison pill contract.

 

[Scalma]

The only thing I can think of is that he wants them to trade KAT and Wiggins. KAT is going to be really hard to move this year though since he signed his extension and now has the poison pill contract.

It’s obvious to me what he’s doing. He’s burning it all down.

 

[dviss1]

What...

See.... Jimmy wouldn't be comin' 'round these parts with an attitude like that...

- Dame

 

[calvin natt]

If the Blazers aren't going after Butler, I have to think it's because of some knowledge the Blazers have about Butler's attitude/locker room presence that the Blazers have concluded make him poison.

Fact