Joe Cronin vs. Dame Dolla

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Who has handled this the right way? (What team are you?)

  • Team Cronin

    Votes: 28 53.8%

  • Team Dame

    Votes: 4 7.7%

  • Neither have handled it right

    Votes: 16 30.8%

  • Both have handled it right

    Votes: 2 3.8%

  • Team Jacob

    Votes: 2 3.8%
  • Total voters
    52
Everything Beagle said:
The calm one in an argument is always perceived as more reasonable even if they aren’t being more reasonable. The FO is playing the public game better than Dame but is sure doesn’t mean they’re right.

What a Pyrrhic victory for people who wanted to trade Dame, if the only way we got that is because Cronin fucked him over to make him demand a trade. What a shitty way to find out Cronin is competent at his job.
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How did the Blazers screw him over and make him demand a trade?
 
PCmor7 said:
How did the Blazers screw him over and make him demand a trade?
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I don’t know I’m on a date and barely paying attention. I thought I read that Cronin bald-faced lied about deals in progress (all of which were dead) in their last meeting together.
 
Everything Beagle said:
I don’t know I’m on a date and barely paying attention. I thought I read that Cronin bald-faced lied about deals in progress (all of which were dead) in their last meeting together.
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That's how some people are making it out, but, unless I missed something, that's actually Team Dame's interpretation/spin of events.

What I've seen is Team Dame met with Cronin. Cronin told them the deals he was exploring ... admittedly offers that fit Dame's requests.

After the meeting, Goodwin called those teams and was told by all of them that Cronin was rebuffed and the deals were dead.

Goodwin and Dame took that as Cronin lying to them because other GMs said nothing was coming out of those overtures and he (Cronin) was presenting his attempts as in progress when they were told by the other GMs that they weren't interested.

If I'm missing something, I'm sure someone will correct it. This is what I read, though.
 
PCmor7 said:
That's how some people are making it out, but, unless I missed something, that's actually Team Dame's interpretation/spin of events.

What I've seen is Team Dame met with Cronin. Cronin told them the deals he was exploring ... admittedly offers that fit Dame's requests.

After the meeting, Goodwin called those teams and was told by all of them that Cronin was rebuffed and the deals were dead.

Goodwin and Dame took that as Cronin lying to them because other GMs said nothing was coming out of those overtures and he was presenting his attempts as in progress when they were told by the other GMs that they weren't interested.

If I'm missing something, I'm sure someone will correct it. This is what I read, though.
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I think it goes deeper than that.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Well, that’s fine for him but I’m a blazer fan. If he’s fucking over my team, he’s fucking over me.
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I keep reading people say the Blazers screwed Dame over but the stories they're giving me leave me with Dame felt screwed over, not that they did something that most normal people would feel was actually screwing them over.

And yet these same people keep telling me "Trust me. The Blazers screwed Dame over. Look at what Dame did all those years for the Blazers." I don't get the unconditional trust in Dame and I don't believe in how I'm supposed to forget everything the Blazer management gave Dame all those years. I'd like to have some kind of story that explains to me why Dame would have a justifiable reason to believe he was screwed over instead of he was just mad they didn't sprinkle fairy dust over the NBA and an opposing team cooperated in making a deal with us that wasn't a total heist.
 
PCmor7 said:
That's how some people are making it out, but, unless I missed something, that's actually Team Dame's interpretation/spin of events.

What I've seen is Team Dame met with Cronin. Cronin told them the deals he was exploring ... admittedly offers that fit Dame's requests.

After the meeting, Goodwin called those teams and was told by all of them that Cronin was rebuffed and the deals were dead.

Goodwin and Dame took that as Cronin lying to them because other GMs said nothing was coming out of those overtures and he (Cronin) was presenting his attempts as in progress when they were told by the other GMs that they weren't interested.

If I'm missing something, I'm sure someone will correct it. This is what I read, though.
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Agree that that's probably what Dame and Goodwin want the public to believe. It doesn't jive with anything I've heard in 20 years of pretty-heavily following NBA transactions. Normally, if someone asks a GM something, it's "we're always discussing all kinds of deals with all kinds of players." "We're always calling to check on the assessed value of our team around the league, and what other teams value on their roster." "Some guys value the future and the liquidity of pick rather than stars--then there's Daryl Morey and whoever is running the L*kers at the moment". Usually, trades aren't "dead" until the deadline.

So if there was a, I don't know, "Zion for #3 and Simons" on the table, and NOP was holding out for Sharpe, that's "dead" unless Joe caves. But all it takes is another discussion to find something else ("We sent Sharpe to UTH for Kessler and 4 picks, so we'll send 2 of those pick to you with Simons and #3") to get it back running. What possible motive does another team have for telling Dame how they're helping out POR?
 
Everything Beagle said:
The calm one in an argument is always perceived as more reasonable even if they aren’t being more reasonable. The FO is playing the public game better than Dame but is sure doesn’t mean they’re right.

What a Pyrrhic victory for people who wanted to trade Dame, if the only way we got that is because Cronin fucked him over to make him demand a trade. What a shitty way to find out Cronin is competent at his job.
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Again, they made 3 runs at OG....which is one of his 'dogs'. But Ujiri's asking price was ludicrous. How happy would people have been to trade Sharpe, Ant, #3 and Nurk for OG (or any other player) and scraps? We would have a gutted team, an insane payroll, and might be a 2nd round team. If that is what would have made fans and Dame happy, thank goodness Joe decided otherwise. Cronin made multiple attempts. Because Dame had diminished the value of the #3 by saying he didn't want to play with any more 19 years olds is on him. Teams new the corner the Blazers were backed into.
 
There are just so many holes in the Dame spin that I'd feel incredibly naive or even stupid to fall for it.

The Blazers weren't horrible in Dame's years. Before tanking in an effort to acquire assets to help Dame (once while Dame was recovering from an injury), the Blazers went to the playoffs eight of nine years, won 50 three times, played over .580 during COVID and made a trip to the West finals.

Dame was paid about as much as a player could be paid.

The Blazers traded for Nurk, Afflalo, Ariza, RoCo, Powell, Nance, Whiteside, Grant. They resigned C.J., Nurk and Ant. They signed GPII. Among others. All with Dame's blessing or at his behest.

They probably kept Stotts because he had Dame's approval. They almost certainly hired Chauncey because Dame approved.

Keljin Blevins. Keljin freaking Blevins. Somebody show me any analogous situation ever in the NBA to Keljin Blevins.

Dame became the face of the franchise over the established LaMarcus Aldridge (certainly LA's personality played a part in this, but the Blazers certainly didn't squelch it) and a national brand despite playing in Portland because of it. He became synonymous with Portland, even starting businesses in the metro area.

Unless someone can give an adequate rebuttal to all those points, I couldn't reasonably give Dame my trust on this. On top of that, certainly, the Blazers had a lot more to lose here than Dame did, so it's hard to believe they deliberately screwed him over to get him to demand a trade, and, even from Dame's side, we're hearing the trades Cronin supposedly lied about were huge moves. It just seems like some people are going to believe Dame's side no matter what the evidence or logic says.
 
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BrianFromWA said:
Agree that that's probably what Dame and Goodwin want the public to believe. It doesn't jive with anything I've heard in 20 years of pretty-heavily following NBA transactions. Normally, if someone asks a GM something, it's "we're always discussing all kinds of deals with all kinds of players." "We're always calling to check on the assessed value of our team around the league, and what other teams value on their roster." "Some guys value the future and the liquidity of pick rather than stars--then there's Daryl Morey and whoever is running the L*kers at the moment". Usually, trades aren't "dead" until the deadline.

So if there was a, I don't know, "Zion for #3 and Simons" on the table, and NOP was holding out for Sharpe, that's "dead" unless Joe caves. But all it takes is another discussion to find something else ("We sent Sharpe to UTH for Kessler and 4 picks, so we'll send 2 of those pick to you with Simons and #3") to get it back running. What possible motive does another team have for telling Dame how they're helping out POR?
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I mentioned this earlier, too. Deals aren't ever dead until they get resolved. The player gets traded there, he gets traded somewhere else, one of the teams in the trade get the kind of player(s) they were seeking elsewhere or the sides decide to maintain the status quo. We have all kinds of examples of trades that were supposed to be "dead" that ended up getting done in a slightly different form a little later because both sides still had reason to make them. That's why I don't get Team Dame's overreaction to "Cronin said he was working the deal but GM X said he told the Blazers no and considered it dead." I also don't get why I should believe Goodwin heard this or why he would believe a GM who might have the ulterior motive of stirring discontent between the Blazers and Dame.

It's like Ed Wood wrote a mystery script. There are plotholes everywhere.
 
One other thing: If Dame was really lied to, say it. Come out and say it. When this all started, 85% of the NBA at least was on Dame's side just because of Dame's rep. If you were lied to, put it out there ... it's not like you're holding anything else back. So why not say it? Why are we hearing it in whispers from Sly?

They put the all-out media blitz that Dame was loyal, Dame was owed this, the Blazers are screwing us over and we're going to hold out ... but the card they aren't playing is the smoking gun they apparently have.

That in and of itself makes me think the story's dubious. It makes me think that Dame's side doesn't buy their own BS. It's like they didn't like the truth and threw a tantrum over it. Nobody, no one was denying his right to ask out. Why go to the extremes? Why get your guys pushing a convoluted narrative about Dame being owed this when you could just say "The Blazers lied to us. This is how." and everyone would be in your corner?

People who have the truth on their side generally don't avoid the direct approach to win the argument, but that's what Dame and Goodwin are doing.
 
PCmor7 said:
One other thing: If Dame was really lied to, say it. Come out and say it. When this all started, 85% of the NBA at least was on Dame's side just because of Dame's rep. If you were lied to, put it out there ... it's not like you're holding anything else back. So why not say it? Why are we hearing it in whispers from Sly?

They put the all-out media blitz that Dame was loyal, Dame was owed this, the Blazers are screwing us over and we're going to hold out ... but the card they aren't playing is the smoking gun they apparently have.

That in and of itself makes me think the story's dubious. It makes me think that Dame's side doesn't buy their own BS. It's like they didn't like the truth and threw a tantrum over it. Nobody, no one was denying his right to ask out. Why go to the extremes? Why get your guys pushing a convoluted narrative about Dame being owed this when you could just say "The Blazers lied to us. This is how." and everyone would be in your corner?

People who have the truth on their side generally don't avoid the direct approach to win the argument, but that's what Dame and Goodwin are doing.
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Great point and one I've been trying to decipher. At this point (#notampering) what's wrong with saying "they wouldn't pony up the cash for (Draymond/etc), who wanted to come here!" Or "I've been told they kept Sharpe instead of bringing in (Zion/Pierce/OG)". Or "they drafted my replacement, who isn't good enough to get me to the playoffs but threatens my next 4yr/213M guaranteed!"
 
Natebishop3 said:
Nothing more. That's why I said if he feels that they were trying to fuck him over.
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when Drew Eubanks doesn't want to be a Blazer, you have to assume the Blazers dealt Lillard a bad hand.
 
PCmor7 said:
I keep reading people say the Blazers screwed Dame over but the stories they're giving me leave me with Dame felt screwed over, not that they did something that most normal people would feel was actually screwing them over.

.
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which may be the case....except...

we simply don't know the content of conversations Dame had with Cronin over the last 16 months. We also don't know the conversations Dame had with Olshey, although considering Dame went over Olshey's head to Paul Allen at least twice we can surmise Dame was not happy with Olshey. We also don't know whether or not Dame had any conversations with Jody Allen and Bert Kolde, and if he did, what was said

I know there's a lot of homerific momentum right now to just say "Dame's a lying piece of shit and so is his agent and so is Pat Riley so fuck him and fuck them all". And of course if you are inclined to believe that Dame was all fake and a liar all along, it's easy to buy into that narrative, especially in light of the Miami or Bust campaign Dame's camp (and Riley) is waging

but I don't believe Dame was all fake and I don't believe he spent 11 years telling lies. I believe he genuinely and sincerely believed what he was selling, but he was guilty of not being prepared for a practical evolution of perspective. Professing complete loyalty at 26, entering his prime, with no real playoff success to date, is a lot easier than maintaining the same loyalty 7 years later at 33 when he can see the window closing on his career and his team just tanked the last 2 seasons

again, if what Sly reported is true, and that's that Cronin exaggerated past the point of reason the options Portland had, and afterwards, Dame thru his agent found out it was all bullshit, that meeting could have been the straw that broke the back. Because I'd bet Dame went into that meeting expecting honesty from Cronin. I'm not saying that's what happened. But as I said, I don't believe Dame's 11 years in Portland were all a lie, so I do believe Dame thinks what he is doing is justified; but I also think quite a bit of Dame's 'justification' is based upon anger
 
PCmor7 said:
How did the Blazers screw him over and make him demand a trade?
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drafted 3 rookies
let 3 players walk
cut a halfway decent Blazer
made no trades
signed a player already on the team (a bad team)

(Thybulle and the Euro Center signings came after Dame's trade request)

Cronin did everything opposite of what he told fans and Lillard the goal was this summer. The GM said he was going to be ridiculously aggressive and pursue awesome talent, swing for the fences. Instead we saw Cronin up their trying to bunt and fouled all 3 pitches off.

Cronin's job was absolutely to scare Lillard into a trade. I guess people in the Front Office were hoping Lillard was totally down with the tank Blazer game. Free 6 week vacation for the starters after All-Star break! But Lillard's competitive spirit took over, he's done with losing, he's done with Portland, he's heard enough Cronin butt kissing to last a lifetime.
 
BrianFromWA said:
Great point and one I've been trying to decipher. At this point (#notampering) what's wrong with saying "they wouldn't pony up the cash for (Draymond/etc), who wanted to come here!" Or "I've been told they kept Sharpe instead of bringing in (Zion/Pierce/OG)". Or "they drafted my replacement, who isn't good enough to get me to the playoffs but threatens my next 4yr/213M guaranteed!"
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Pierce? You mean George?
 
wizenheimer said:
considering the Blazers waived Watford, it seems pretty reasonable they probably told Eubanks they would not bring him back
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That's also possible. He might have wanted to move on anyways. Hard to turn down playing with Kevin Durant in your career.
 
maxiep said:
We did...
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Too soon....
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I voted both look bad - Cronin from his actions and comments prior to April, and Dame for his reps comments from July 1st onward. Between the two I'd lean to Dame looking much worse though.

Hoopsjock has said on his streams something to the effect that Cronin had promised Dame the Blazers would use the lottery pick to acquire veterans to win now. That was part of the agreement of Dame and other starters sit out games to tank and not try to make a run for the playin. So I could see Dame feeling very mislead from that rhetoric when the team just keeps the rookie and acquires no veterans they were told would come. It was actually the opposite, since the team traded away a good vet in Hart who wanted to call Portland home, the Blazers have done far more rebuilding actions than win now actions.

Personally I believe all of Cronin's draft decisions were very good, but his comments to fans and I'd assume to Dame are really the issue. Over promising actions he can't deliver. Maybe Cronin actually believed he'd acquire veterans but it just didn't happened, and he pivoted to a rebuild. I don't really know and it probably doesn't matter. However after the end of season press conference Cronins actions and comments have all been fine IMO.

I have strongly been against Dame's camps comments the last week and a half. If he wants to request a trade then fine, just do it. But the manner they are doing it looks very bad for his legacy in Portland or the potential to reunite years from now if the team eventually is closer to contend. Kind of makes all those seasons of his brand and loyalty seem hollow which is very sad. Dame had a connection with the fans that a GM or owner never could have, thus his bad look hurts much more to Blazers fans emotionally than Cronin's bad decisions or dumb comments ever could.
 
tykendo said:
All you Dame haters, masked by the " I like Dame, BUT !" B.S. , Who are siding with Forked Tongue Joe , need to open up your ears, because it was Joe who said he would push the chips in to build around Dame. And he's doubled down on the committed to build around Dame B.S. as well, yet his actions say otherwise. Jody should fire his ass . Dame EARNED HIS MONEY, and any other team would have paid him for his talents royally as well. So knock off the "Blazers paid him, so they don't owe him" garbage. The rhetoric being spewed against Dame is shameful and disgusting.
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Oh stop. If you knew me, or looked through my posts, you'd find someone who wanted Dame to retire a Blazer, who wanted him to be a Blazer for life. But like I posted somewhere before, his personality has caught up with his persona. There were signs before, but it's clear now.

There is no defending the Miami only, run from the grind, super team seeking. There just isn't. Dame isn't who he portrayed himself to be, or more likely, he's changed.

And the Blazers changed. You're right; I think Joe acted the fuckface here. He deserves the blame for either being overconfident or duplicitous. I'm guessing it's the former, but either way Dame is right to be mad.

But again, mad is different than what Dame has done. It's hurt his image and our likelihood of getting a fair return. He's done what professional wrestlers do (a form of entertainment he loves); he's become the heel, the villain.

I GUARANTEE he walks much of this back once the trade is complete, like it was some sort of misunderstanding. Because we didn't hear it from him. That's always his go to. Even though EVERYONE around him is saying these things, somehow it doesn't count unless he is saying it. That's quite a system. Try that with your wife or boss. Have someone relay some unreasonable shit and then be like "What? Did you hear me say it? No? Then it doesn't count!"

Listen, I know it hurts, but it's just the way it is. Shit changes, people change. I mean, people that are in love enough to get married and have children get divorced. Dame just worked here and soon he won't. It's not that crazy.
 
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