Joe Liebermann Question

[Денг Гордон]

Why are the peopel on the far left like Rachel Maddow saying that Barack Obama and Harry Reid are wrong for saying that Liebermann should stay in the caucus and keep his committee chair position. People like Maddow saying that they have to punish him if they can't get that 60 seats.

Why? Aren't guys like Barack Obama correct in their assessment of the situation, since we shouldn't be picking who is in charge of committees based on politics, but rather who is best for the job?

 

[barfo]

Why? Aren't guys like Barack Obama correct in their assessment of the situation, since we shouldn't be picking who is in charge of committees based on politics, but rather who is best for the job?

Generally, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Lieberman is the best man for the job. Plus the fact that committee chairmen are never chosen based on who is best for the job, it is always politics and seniority, with a dash of personal preference. So why make an exception for just this one case?

barfo

 

[maxiep]

It's tough to believe that President-Elect Obama is capable of reaching across the aisle if he can't even reach across his own caucus.

 

[barfo]

It's tough to believe that President-Elect Obama is capable of reaching across the aisle if he can't even reach across his own caucus.

C'mon. It's not Obama's job to pick committee chairmen.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

C'mon. It's not Obama's job to pick committee chairmen.

barfo

Of course, he is powerless. I forgot.

 

[barfo]

Of course, he is powerless. I forgot.

You think he should make Joe Lieberman's committee chairmanship a priority? Why?

barfo

 

[maxiep]

You think he should make Joe Lieberman's committee chairmanship a priority? Why?

barfo

I don't think saying to Harry Reid "let him keep it" is making it a priority or particularly time-consuming. I actually think it would engender some real goodwill. Everyone would know he did it, and it would be a way of showing he's not going to stoop to petty politics, that he really is serious about changing the tone in Washington. Lieberman has done a very good job in that post, and that committee is hardly a political hotspot.

 

[barfo]

I don't think saying to Harry Reid "let him keep it" is making it a priority or particularly time-consuming.

And you think that's all it takes? He just tells Harry what he wants and Harry does it? Wouldn't cost him anything?

barfo

 

[bodyman5001]

And you think that's all it takes? He just tells Harry what he wants and Harry does it? Wouldn't cost him anything?

barfo

It sure doesn't sound like he is saying for Obama to take it to the Supreme Court.

 

[barfo]

It sure doesn't sound like he is saying for Obama to take it to the Supreme Court.

That's missing the point. You've got to give something to get something in politics. What is it worth to Obama to keep Lieberman's committee chairmanship? My guess is very little. What will it cost him? Nothing if Reid is going to do it anyway. Lots if Reid isn't inclined to do it.

barfo

 

[bodyman5001]

That's missing the point. You've got to give something to get something in politics. What is it worth to Obama to keep Lieberman's committee chairmanship? My guess is very little. What will it cost him? Nothing if Reid is going to do it anyway. Lots if Reid isn't inclined to do it.

barfo

So that whole CHANGE thing is a lie?

 

[barfo]

So that whole CHANGE thing is a lie?

It's a campaign slogan. It's not entirely baseless, some change is gonna come, but it's not realistic to expect Congress to suddenly start working in a whole different way just because Obama got elected. Power is still power.

barfo

 

[bodyman5001]

It's a campaign slogan. It's not entirely baseless, some change is gonna come, but it's not realistic to expect Congress to suddenly start working in a whole different way just because Obama got elected. Power is still power.

barfo

No way, I want real change.

 

[barfo]

No way, I want real change.

There been times that I thought I couldn't last for long
But now I think I'm able to carry on
It's been a long, a long time coming
But I know a change gonna come, oh yes it will

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

No way, I want real change.

There been times that I thought I couldn't last for long
But now I think I'm able to carry on
It's been a long, a long time coming
But I know a change gonna come, oh yes it will

I still don't know what I was waiting for
And my time was running wild
A million dead-end streets
Every time I thought I'd got it made
It seemed the taste was not so sweet
So I turned myself to face me
But I've never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker
I'm much too fast to take that test

Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes

-Minstrel

 

[e_blazer]

Changes may not necessarily be for the better:

 

[barfo]

No way, I want real change.

There been times that I thought I couldn't last for long
But now I think I'm able to carry on
It's been a long, a long time coming
But I know a change gonna come, oh yes it will

I still don't know what I was waiting for
And my time was running wild
A million dead-end streets
Every time I thought I'd got it made
It seemed the taste was not so sweet
So I turned myself to face me
But I've never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker
I'm much too fast to take that test

Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes

So east coast
So here's a toast
So here's to everything I wanted the most, the most

Baby now, it's over now,
I'm just sitting here, though I'll stand up somehow, somehow

I got a date with a diamond ring,
the tramps in the alley watch her shake that thing
and it's all right mama, it's all right now,
I never wanted any of it anyhow,

and ooooo, a change will come
ooooo, a change will come

So New York
A silver spoon, a plastic fork
and we want everything,
and we want just a little bit more, some more,
and can you see, it's hard to see,
when you say you're looking for a lover,
I say don't you take a look at me, at me

and it's all right mama, it's all right now,
I just couldn't stand no more no how

and ooooo, a change will come
ooooo, a change will come

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

No way, I want real change.

There been times that I thought I couldn't last for long
But now I think I'm able to carry on
It's been a long, a long time coming
But I know a change gonna come, oh yes it will

I still don't know what I was waiting for
And my time was running wild
A million dead-end streets
Every time I thought I'd got it made
It seemed the taste was not so sweet
So I turned myself to face me
But I've never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker
I'm much too fast to take that test

Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes

So east coast
So here's a toast
So here's to everything I wanted the most, the most

Baby now, it's over now,
I'm just sitting here, though I'll stand up somehow, somehow

I got a date with a diamond ring,
the tramps in the alley watch her shake that thing
and it's all right mama, it's all right now,
I never wanted any of it anyhow,

and ooooo, a change will come
ooooo, a change will come

So New York
A silver spoon, a plastic fork
and we want everything,
and we want just a little bit more, some more,
and can you see, it's hard to see,
when you say you're looking for a lover,
I say don't you take a look at me, at me

and it's all right mama, it's all right now,
I just couldn't stand no more no how

and ooooo, a change will come
ooooo, a change will come

Now if we had the power
To bring our neighbors home from war
They woulda never missed a Christmas
No more ribbons on the door
When you trust your television
What you get is what you got
'cause when they own the information ooohhh,
They can bend it all they want!

That's why we're waiting (waiting)
Waiting on the world to change

-Minstrel

 

[barfo]

No way, I want real change.

There been times that I thought I couldn't last for long
But now I think I'm able to carry on
It's been a long, a long time coming
But I know a change gonna come, oh yes it will

I still don't know what I was waiting for
And my time was running wild
A million dead-end streets
Every time I thought I'd got it made
It seemed the taste was not so sweet
So I turned myself to face me
But I've never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker
I'm much too fast to take that test

Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes

So east coast
So here's a toast
So here's to everything I wanted the most, the most

Baby now, it's over now,
I'm just sitting here, though I'll stand up somehow, somehow

I got a date with a diamond ring,
the tramps in the alley watch her shake that thing
and it's all right mama, it's all right now,
I never wanted any of it anyhow,

and ooooo, a change will come
ooooo, a change will come

So New York
A silver spoon, a plastic fork
and we want everything,
and we want just a little bit more, some more,
and can you see, it's hard to see,
when you say you're looking for a lover,
I say don't you take a look at me, at me

and it's all right mama, it's all right now,
I just couldn't stand no more no how

and ooooo, a change will come
ooooo, a change will come

Now if we had the power
To bring our neighbors home from war
They woulda never missed a Christmas
No more ribbons on the door
When you trust your television
What you get is what you got
'cause when they own the information ooohhh,
They can bend it all they want!

That's why we're waiting (waiting)
Waiting on the world to change

If you listen you can hear it
It's the laughter in the street
It's the motion in the music
And the fire beneath your feet
All the signs are right this time
You don't have to try so very hard
If you live in this world
You're feelin' the change of the guard

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

No way, I want real change.

There been times that I thought I couldn't last for long
But now I think I'm able to carry on
It's been a long, a long time coming
But I know a change gonna come, oh yes it will

I still don't know what I was waiting for
And my time was running wild
A million dead-end streets
Every time I thought I'd got it made
It seemed the taste was not so sweet
So I turned myself to face me
But I've never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker
I'm much too fast to take that test

Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes

So east coast
So here's a toast
So here's to everything I wanted the most, the most

Baby now, it's over now,
I'm just sitting here, though I'll stand up somehow, somehow

I got a date with a diamond ring,
the tramps in the alley watch her shake that thing
and it's all right mama, it's all right now,
I never wanted any of it anyhow,

and ooooo, a change will come
ooooo, a change will come

So New York
A silver spoon, a plastic fork
and we want everything,
and we want just a little bit more, some more,
and can you see, it's hard to see,
when you say you're looking for a lover,
I say don't you take a look at me, at me

and it's all right mama, it's all right now,
I just couldn't stand no more no how

and ooooo, a change will come
ooooo, a change will come

Now if we had the power
To bring our neighbors home from war
They woulda never missed a Christmas
No more ribbons on the door
When you trust your television
What you get is what you got
'cause when they own the information ooohhh,
They can bend it all they want!

That's why we're waiting (waiting)
Waiting on the world to change

If you listen you can hear it
It's the laughter in the street
It's the motion in the music
And the fire beneath your feet
All the signs are right this time
You don't have to try so very hard
If you live in this world
You're feelin' the change of the guard

Putting all the vegetables away
That you bought at the grocery store today
And it goes fast
You think of the past
Suddenly everything has changed

Driving home, the sky accelerates
And the clouds all form a geometric shape
And it goes fast
You think of the past
Suddenly everything has changed

Putting all the clothes you’ve washed away
And as you’re folding up the shirts you hesitate
Then it goes fast
You think of the past
And suddenly everything has changed

-Minstrel

 

[barfo]

No way, I want real change.

There been times that I thought I couldn't last for long
But now I think I'm able to carry on
It's been a long, a long time coming
But I know a change gonna come, oh yes it will

I still don't know what I was waiting for
And my time was running wild
A million dead-end streets
Every time I thought I'd got it made
It seemed the taste was not so sweet
So I turned myself to face me
But I've never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker
I'm much too fast to take that test

Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes

So east coast
So here's a toast
So here's to everything I wanted the most, the most

Baby now, it's over now,
I'm just sitting here, though I'll stand up somehow, somehow

I got a date with a diamond ring,
the tramps in the alley watch her shake that thing
and it's all right mama, it's all right now,
I never wanted any of it anyhow,

and ooooo, a change will come
ooooo, a change will come

So New York
A silver spoon, a plastic fork
and we want everything,
and we want just a little bit more, some more,
and can you see, it's hard to see,
when you say you're looking for a lover,
I say don't you take a look at me, at me

and it's all right mama, it's all right now,
I just couldn't stand no more no how

and ooooo, a change will come
ooooo, a change will come

Now if we had the power
To bring our neighbors home from war
They woulda never missed a Christmas
No more ribbons on the door
When you trust your television
What you get is what you got
'cause when they own the information ooohhh,
They can bend it all they want!

That's why we're waiting (waiting)
Waiting on the world to change

If you listen you can hear it
It's the laughter in the street
It's the motion in the music
And the fire beneath your feet
All the signs are right this time
You don't have to try so very hard
If you live in this world
You're feelin' the change of the guard

Putting all the vegetables away
That you bought at the grocery store today
And it goes fast
You think of the past
Suddenly everything has changed

Driving home, the sky accelerates
And the clouds all form a geometric shape
And it goes fast
You think of the past
Suddenly everything has changed

Putting all the clothes you’ve washed away
And as you’re folding up the shirts you hesitate
Then it goes fast
You think of the past
And suddenly everything has changed

Well I fought for you
I fought too hard, to do it all again
It's gone too far
You never needed me, you only wanted me around
It gets me down

There's been a change
Yeah there's been a change of heart
I said there's been a change
You pushed just a little too far
Made it just a little too hard
There's been a change of heart

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

No way, I want real change.

There been times that I thought I couldn't last for long
But now I think I'm able to carry on
It's been a long, a long time coming
But I know a change gonna come, oh yes it will

I still don't know what I was waiting for
And my time was running wild
A million dead-end streets
Every time I thought I'd got it made
It seemed the taste was not so sweet
So I turned myself to face me
But I've never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker
I'm much too fast to take that test

Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes

So east coast
So here's a toast
So here's to everything I wanted the most, the most

Baby now, it's over now,
I'm just sitting here, though I'll stand up somehow, somehow

I got a date with a diamond ring,
the tramps in the alley watch her shake that thing
and it's all right mama, it's all right now,
I never wanted any of it anyhow,

and ooooo, a change will come
ooooo, a change will come

So New York
A silver spoon, a plastic fork
and we want everything,
and we want just a little bit more, some more,
and can you see, it's hard to see,
when you say you're looking for a lover,
I say don't you take a look at me, at me

and it's all right mama, it's all right now,
I just couldn't stand no more no how

and ooooo, a change will come
ooooo, a change will come

Now if we had the power
To bring our neighbors home from war
They woulda never missed a Christmas
No more ribbons on the door
When you trust your television
What you get is what you got
'cause when they own the information ooohhh,
They can bend it all they want!

That's why we're waiting (waiting)
Waiting on the world to change

If you listen you can hear it
It's the laughter in the street
It's the motion in the music
And the fire beneath your feet
All the signs are right this time
You don't have to try so very hard
If you live in this world
You're feelin' the change of the guard

Putting all the vegetables away
That you bought at the grocery store today
And it goes fast
You think of the past
Suddenly everything has changed

Driving home, the sky accelerates
And the clouds all form a geometric shape
And it goes fast
You think of the past
Suddenly everything has changed

Putting all the clothes you’ve washed away
And as you’re folding up the shirts you hesitate
Then it goes fast
You think of the past
And suddenly everything has changed

Well I fought for you
I fought too hard, to do it all again
It's gone too far
You never needed me, you only wanted me around
It gets me down

There's been a change
Yeah there's been a change of heart
I said there's been a change
You pushed just a little too far
Made it just a little too hard
There's been a change of heart

I wrote the song two hours before we met.
I didn't know your name or what you looked like yet.
Oh, I could have stayed at home and gone to bed.
I could have gone to see a film instead.
You might have changed your mind and seen your friends.
Life could have been very different but then,
Something changed.

Do you believe that there's someone up above?
Does he have a timetable directing acts of love?
Why did I write this song on that one day?
Why did you touch my hand and softly say
Stop asking questions that don't matter anyway.
Just give us a kiss to celebrate here today.
Something changed.

When we woke up that morning we had no way of knowing,
That in a matter of hours we'd change the way we were going.
Where would I be now if we'd never met?
Would I be singing this song to someone else instead?
I dunno, but like you said
Something changed.

-Minstrel

 

[crandc]

As a non member of the Democratic party, my understanding is this:

Lieberman ran against the Democratic candidate in Connecticut. He said he was the "real" Democrat and called on leading party members, including Barack Obama, to support him, which they did. He was given the chairmanship of an important committee. He did nothing with it - although it was within his purview to investigate the Hurrican Katrina "response", warrantless wiretapping, etc., and although he was requested to do so, he refused, siding with the Bush administration. He voted against the Democratic caucus on key issues such as improving veteran's benefits, emergency contraception for rape victims (Liberman callously said women can just go from hospital to hospital until they find one who will provide emergency contraception, no need to require it) and other issues.

In the 2008 presidential election, he said he would endorse McCain based on longtime friendship and respect but would not campaign explicitly against the Democratic ticket, and then proceeded to do just that, saying Obama was naive, repeating the false statement that Obama voted to cut off funding for the troops, saying that he feared for the country if Obama was elected, etc. When asked if Obama was a Muslim, he did not say no, and it doesn't matter, like Colin Powell did, he said he did not "think" so. When asked if Obama was a Marxist, he said "that's a real good question". He also said he would not campaign for other Republican candidates and proceeded to do just that, on the stated grounds that a Democratic majority would be bad for the country.

Some people, not just Maddow and Oberman, feel that if left as chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, he will do to Obama what he refused to do to Bush. Every time Obama makes a controversial or disputed decision, and he will make them, Lieberman could be launching investigations, hearings, etc. against Obama. While Sen. Evin Bayh has said that if Lieberman uses his position in such a way the Democratic caucus can revoke his chairmanship, this would, politically, be tough to do as it would be construed, and depicted as, a cover-up (i.e. Lieberman investigates Obama and loses his position).

Perhaps Democrats on the board can add to this. I think this sums it up.

And it is far from "far left" who have concerns about Lieberman, not to mention the fact that Maddow and Olberman are only "far left" if you use that term for everyone who does not support George Bush from centrist Democrats to Marxists (as Talkhard used to).

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

As a non member of the Democratic party, my understanding is this:

Lieberman ran against the Democratic candidate in Connecticut. He said he was the "real" Democrat and called on leading party members, including Barack Obama, to support him, which they did. He was given the chairmanship of an important committee. He did nothing with it - although it was within his purview to investigate the Hurrican Katrina "response", warrantless wiretapping, etc., and although he was requested to do so, he refused, siding with the Bush administration. He voted against the Democratic caucus on key issues such as improving veteran's benefits, emergency contraception for rape victims (Liberman callously said women can just go from hospital to hospital until they find one who will provide emergency contraception, no need to require it) and other issues.

In the 2008 presidential election, he said he would endorse McCain based on longtime friendship and respect but would not campaign explicitly against the Democratic ticket, and then proceeded to do just that, saying Obama was naive, repeating the false statement that Obama voted to cut off funding for the troops, saying that he feared for the country if Obama was elected, etc. When asked if Obama was a Muslim, he did not say no, and it doesn't matter, like Colin Powell did, he said he did not "think" so. When asked if Obama was a Marxist, he said "that's a real good question". He also said he would not campaign for other Republican candidates and proceeded to do just that, on the stated grounds that a Democratic majority would be bad for the country.

Some people, not just Maddow and Oberman, feel that if left as chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, he will do to Obama what he refused to do to Bush. Every time Obama makes a controversial or disputed decision, and he will make them, Lieberman could be launching investigations, hearings, etc. against Obama. While Sen. Evin Bayh has said that if Lieberman uses his position in such a way the Democratic caucus can revoke his chairmanship, this would, politically, be tough to do as it would be construed, and depicted as, a cover-up (i.e. Lieberman investigates Obama and loses his position).

Perhaps Democrats on the board can add to this. I think this sums it up.

And it is far from "far left" who have concerns about Lieberman, not to mention the fact that Maddow and Olberman are only "far left" if you use that term for everyone who does not support George Bush from centrist Democrats to Marxists (as Talkhard used to).

I suppose it's how one wants to view things. I read great things about him and I read lousy things about him.

So it's up to one's personal perspective of politics.

As for me, all I know is that he's an independent. He has voted both yes & no on various abortion issues, consistently supported farmers issues, consistently voted yes on civil rights issues, supports the death penalty, consistently votes for veterans rights, with the exception os same sex marriage has consistently voted for gay rights, believes in stem cell research.

Why do the lefties hate him so much.

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=53278&type=category&category=2&go.x=11&go.y=12

 

[maxiep]

That's missing the point. You've got to give something to get something in politics. What is it worth to Obama to keep Lieberman's committee chairmanship? My guess is very little. What will it cost him? Nothing if Reid is going to do it anyway. Lots if Reid isn't inclined to do it.

barfo

Reid's majority is based on Obama's coattails. To reuse Rachel Maddow's phrase, you couldn't put a piece of paper between President-Elect Obama's policy prescriptions and Sen. Reid's. So, what exactly would he have to give up? On which issues do they disagree?

 

[maxiep]

As a non member of the Democratic party, my understanding is this:

Lieberman ran against the Democratic candidate in Connecticut. He said he was the "real" Democrat and called on leading party members, including Barack Obama, to support him, which they did. He was given the chairmanship of an important committee. He did nothing with it - although it was within his purview to investigate the Hurrican Katrina "response", warrantless wiretapping, etc., and although he was requested to do so, he refused, siding with the Bush administration. He voted against the Democratic caucus on key issues such as improving veteran's benefits, emergency contraception for rape victims (Liberman callously said women can just go from hospital to hospital until they find one who will provide emergency contraception, no need to require it) and other issues.

In the 2008 presidential election, he said he would endorse McCain based on longtime friendship and respect but would not campaign explicitly against the Democratic ticket, and then proceeded to do just that, saying Obama was naive, repeating the false statement that Obama voted to cut off funding for the troops, saying that he feared for the country if Obama was elected, etc. When asked if Obama was a Muslim, he did not say no, and it doesn't matter, like Colin Powell did, he said he did not "think" so. When asked if Obama was a Marxist, he said "that's a real good question". He also said he would not campaign for other Republican candidates and proceeded to do just that, on the stated grounds that a Democratic majority would be bad for the country.

Some people, not just Maddow and Oberman, feel that if left as chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, he will do to Obama what he refused to do to Bush. Every time Obama makes a controversial or disputed decision, and he will make them, Lieberman could be launching investigations, hearings, etc. against Obama. While Sen. Evin Bayh has said that if Lieberman uses his position in such a way the Democratic caucus can revoke his chairmanship, this would, politically, be tough to do as it would be construed, and depicted as, a cover-up (i.e. Lieberman investigates Obama and loses his position).

Perhaps Democrats on the board can add to this. I think this sums it up.

And it is far from "far left" who have concerns about Lieberman, not to mention the fact that Maddow and Olberman are only "far left" if you use that term for everyone who does not support George Bush from centrist Democrats to Marxists (as Talkhard used to).

So much for the idea of the big tent. It's nice to know that either you tow the party line, or you end up in a gulag. I can hardly wait for the first Five-Year Plan.

 

[maxiep]

I suppose it's how one wants to view things. I read great things about him and I read lousy things about him.

So it's up to one's personal perspective of politics.

As for me, all I know is that he's an independent. He has voted both yes & no on various abortion issues, consistently supported farmers issues, consistently voted yes on civil rights issues, supports the death penalty, consistently votes for veterans rights, with the exception os same sex marriage has consistently voted for gay rights, believes in stem cell research.

Why do the lefties hate him so much.

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=53278&type=category&category=2&go.x=11&go.y=12

Because he's not a True Believer. God forbid, you disagree with the Party Leadership on any issue.

 

[barfo]

Reid's majority is based on Obama's coattails.

No it isn't. Reid had a majority before the election.

To reuse Rachel Maddow's phrase, you couldn't put a piece of paper between President-Elect Obama's policy prescriptions and Sen. Reid's. So, what exactly would he have to give up? On which issues do they disagree?

Keeping Lieberman, according to the hypothetical we are discussing here.

Besides, I thought you had no idea what Obama stands for? So how can you say he's a carbon copy of Reid?

barfo

 

[maxiep]

No it isn't. Reid had a majority before the election.

He didn't actually. It was 49/49, but Lieberman and Sanders caucused with the Democrats.

Keeping Lieberman, according to the hypothetical we are discussing here.

We're discussing a hypothetical? I'm pretty sure Lieberman thinks it's real.

Besides, I thought you had no idea what Obama stands for? So how can you say he's a carbon copy of Reid?

barfo

I said I couldn't jibe his voting record in the Illinois State Senate or the US Senate with his rhetoric and that based on it people had no idea what he stood for. He voted with the Democratic Leadership 97% of the time as a member of the US Senate, so one could easily conclude that he and Reid are pretty close in terms of ideology.

 

[barfo]

He didn't actually. It was 49/49, but Lieberman and Sanders caucused with the Democrats.

Ok, I should have said working majority.

We're discussing a hypothetical? I'm pretty sure Lieberman thinks it's real.

Lieberman thinks it's real that Obama wants to keep him in the chair, and Reid doesn't? Maybe, I don't think you or I have any real way to know.

barfo