JVG said DWade is the top 2 or 3 two guards of all time? You agree with that?

[Denny Crane]

Kobe career 25.5 PPG on 19.6 FGA, 23.4 PER, .454 FG%, 5.3 RPG, 4.8 APG
Wade career 24.7 PPG on 18.0 FGA, 25.5 PER, .489 FG%, 5.1 RPG, 6.1 APG

Unquestioned?

 

[Mediocre Man]

Kobe career 25.5 PPG on 19.6 FGA, 23.4 PER, .454 FG%, 5.3 RPG, 4.8 APG
Wade career 24.7 PPG on 18.0 FGA, 25.5 PER, .489 FG%, 5.1 RPG, 6.1 APG

Unquestioned?

Games played regular season
Kobe - 1239
Wade - 665

I suppose if Wade keeps those totals up for twice as long as he has already, then sure, he can be in that conversation.

 

[Natebishop3]

Kobe career 25.5 PPG on 19.6 FGA, 23.4 PER, .454 FG%, 5.3 RPG, 4.8 APG
Wade career 24.7 PPG on 18.0 FGA, 25.5 PER, .489 FG%, 5.1 RPG, 6.1 APG

Unquestioned?

The biggest problem I have is that Kobe at least spent a portion of his career in the heyday of the league. Wade has profited from playing in the "new" NBA without hand checking and tighter rules on bodying perimeter players. The guy is handed a ton of free throws every game. Obviously Kobe has benefited from that too, but Kobe started playing in 1996, and spent his first few seasons coming off the bench. So I have to wonder what his career numbers would look like if he had started playing in 2003 like Wade.

 

[Run BJM]

Man, I remember the last time I debated with Voodoo about Wade. I went and looked up his numbers. The guy has had an insane career. I didn't even realize the numbers he was putting up. I think he's definitely top 10, and once you get to that point it's all subjective. MJ is obviously the best shooting guard of all time, but after that it's fair game.

IMO Wade is one of those guys where you need to look back at him during his best few years. He had a stellar career but he had maybe 3, 4, 5 seasons where he was just unreal in all facets of the game. He got recognition when he lead Miami to a ring but the couple years after that when he was healthy he was incredible.

 

[Denny Crane]

In the heyday of the league, the stars (like Kobe) got lots of phantom foul calls and were favored on the defensive end as well.

I'm not sure Wade got any extra benefits from when he played. He still put up those numbers at a time when Kobe was putting up his. And whether it was Kobe winning his ONE MVP or the others, Wade was pretty much #2 for MVP.

 

[Boise Blazer]

http://bkref.com/tiny/gzrsO

I will say that looking at this list I was surprised at how high Wade was. I had to do the list as guard/forward to include Jordan. I guess depending on if you consider West a PG or SG a case can be made the Wade is right there especially if he gets his 3rd ring this year. But I think its safe to say MJ and KB have the 1st and 2nd spots locked down. This list is most seasons at 25 PPG 5 APG 5 RPG

Rk             Player From   To  Tm  Lg Count
1         Kobe Bryant 2001 2013 LAL NBA    12
2     Michael Jordan* 1985 1998 CHI NBA    12
3         Jerry West* 1962 1972 LAL NBA    11
4       Allen Iverson 1999 2008 TOT NBA    10
5    Oscar Robertson* 1961 1970 CIN NBA     9
6      George Gervin* 1978 1984 SAS NBA     7
7      Pete Maravich* 1973 1978 TOT NBA     5
8         Dwyane Wade 2006 2011 MIA NBA     5
9     Tiny Archibald* 1972 1975 TOT NBA     3
10     Gilbert Arenas 2005 2007 WAS NBA     3
11       Vince Carter 2000 2007 TOT NBA     3
12     Clyde Drexler* 1988 1992 POR NBA     3

 

[Pinwheel1]

In the heyday of the league, the stars (like Kobe) got lots of phantom foul calls and were favored on the defensive end as well.

I'm not sure Wade got any extra benefits from when he played. He still put up those numbers at a time when Kobe was putting up his. And whether it was Kobe winning his ONE MVP or the others, Wade was pretty much #2 for MVP.

Are you kidding? Wade got the super star calls the minute he stepped on the court. It was quite surprising how quickly they gave him that status. He got to the line every time he wanted. No doubt he is great, but it was annoying how quickly he got star treatment by the refs.

 

[BlazerWookee]

Top three? No way in hell.
Top ten? Arguably.
Top twenty? Almost assuredly.

 

[PapaG]

Top three? No way in hell.
Top ten? Arguably.
Top twenty? Almost assuredly.

Name 10 better 2-guards than Wade, and then throw in Wade's defense.

 

[BlazerWookee]

Name 10 better 2-guards than Wade, and then throw in Wade's defense.

Drexler, Allen, Robertson, Jordan, Bryant, Free, Maravich, Gervin, Monroe, West...

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Kobe career 25.5 PPG on 19.6 FGA, 23.4 PER, .454 FG%, 5.3 RPG, 4.8 APG
Wade career 24.7 PPG on 18.0 FGA, 25.5 PER, .489 FG%, 5.1 RPG, 6.1 APG

Unquestioned?

Kobe has done it much longer and didn't break down. Wade already looks like he is breaking down. Plus Kobe has five rings.

 

[Denny Crane]

Are you kidding? Wade got the super star calls the minute he stepped on the court. It was quite surprising how quickly they gave him that status. He got to the line every time he wanted. No doubt he is great, but it was annoying how quickly he got star treatment by the refs.

Whatever super star calls he got, so did Kobe

My point is Kobe got them under the old hand check rules as well.

 

[Denny Crane]

Drexler, Allen, Robertson, Jordan, Bryant, Free, Maravich, Gervin, Monroe, West...

Drexler, Allen, Robertson, Free, Monroe. NOT.

That leaves Jordan, Bryant, Maravich, Gervin, West.

Only two of those played defense.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I know Oscar Robertson was considered a PG, but he played the exact same role on his teams as Wade did (at least until LeBron arrived). Roberston and Wade are also the same size. The difference is Roberston did it far, far better.

If we include the Big O, I'd rank them:

Jordan
Kobe
Oscar

and then a tightly spaced group including West, Wade and Drexler (in that order). David Thompson could have been on that list, if he wouldn't have pissed his talent away.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Drexler, Allen, Robertson, Free, Monroe. NOT.

That leaves Jordan, Bryant, Maravich, Gervin, West.

Only two of those played defense.

Really? I count at least three that played much better defense than Wade.

Jordan - All-Defensive 1st Team 9 times
Kobe - All-Defensive 1st Team 9 times
West - All-Defensive 1st Team 4 times*
Wade - All-Defensive 1st Team ZERO times

* Note: the NBA did not start voting for All-Defensive Teams until 1968-69, West's 9th season in the league at the age of 30. He still made All-Defensive 1st Team 4 times in his 30s. He would have made it many more times in his 20s, if they would have voted for it back then. West was known as one of the best defenders in the league throughout his entire NBA career.

BNM

 

[handiman]

Kobe has never been a better defender than Wade. Their impact on that end of the floor is not even close. I wasn't aware Wade has never made all-d first team, but if that's correct, that award is an absolute joke. He and LeBron have been without a doubt the best perimeter defenders in the league over the past 10 years. (Ignoring guys that only play defense, but even then I'd take Wade's D over any of them.)

 

[PapaG]

Drexler, Allen, Robertson, Jordan, Bryant, Free, Maravich, Gervin, Monroe, West...

Ray Allen? Not even close

Robertson was a forward

World B. Free? Not even close.

Pete Maravich? Not even close.

Iverson? Maybe for a 2-3 year peak, but even that's debatable.

I put Wade ahead of Drexler, right now. I think he's a solid 3rd-5th, unquestionably.

 

[PapaG]

Drexler, Allen, Robertson, Free, Monroe. NOT.

That leaves Jordan, Bryant, Maravich, Gervin, West.

Only two of those played defense.

Maravich wasn't a great NBA player. West was at his best at PG.

Gervin, I have no issue with.

 

[PapaG]

I know Oscar Robertson was considered a PG, but he played the exact same role on his teams as Wade did (at least until LeBron arrived). Roberston and Wade are also the same size. The difference is Roberston did it far, far better.

If we include the Big O, I'd rank them:

Jordan
Kobe
Oscar

and then a tightly spaced group including West, Wade and Drexler (in that order). David Thompson could have been on that list, if he wouldn't have pissed his talent away.

BNM

He is considered a small forward by many NBA historians, too.

Not a SG, though.

 

[PapaG]

May as well call Larry Bird and Scottie Pippen '2-guards' if we're going to add the Big O.

 

[Boob-No-More]

May as well call Larry Bird and Scottie Pippen '2-guards' if we're going to add the Big O.

Don't be ridiculous. Did you ever even see Oscar Robertson play? He played the same role and a similar style to what Wade played on the Heat in the pre-LeBron days. He brought the ball up the court and ran the offense. In his second season in the league, he set a new record for assists in a season. Did Bird or Pippen or any other forward in the entire history of the NBA ever hold the single season assist record?

Roberston, in his prime, was definitely a guard. The only question is was he a PG or a SG. To claim otherwise is like trying to say Michael Jordan wasn't a SG because he played SF with the Wizards, or Magic Johnson wasn't a PG because he played PF when he made his brief post-HIV comeback.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

He is considered a small forward by many NBA historians, too.

Not a SG, though.

Link? Who are these "many NBA historians"?

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Link? Who are these "many NBA historians"?

BNM

BTW, Oscar Robertson made 1st or 2nd team all NBA 11 times. Back in those days, the voting was for two guards, two forwards and one center. All 11 times, Robertson made 1st or 2nd team All-NBA, he was voted in as a guard. His peers, the coaches and the journalists all considered him a guard during his playing career. Any attempt to label him differently is revisionist history - and also just plain factually incorrect and misinformed. Most likely the clueless ramblings of someone who never actually saw him play.

BNM

 

[PapaG]

Don't be ridiculous. Did you ever even see Oscar Robertson play? He played the same role and a similar style to what Wade played on the Heat in the pre-LeBron days. He brought the ball up the court and ran the offense. In his second season in the league, he set a new record for assists in a season. Did Bird or Pippen or any other forward in the entire history of the NBA ever hold the single season assist record?

Roberston, in his prime, was definitely a guard. The only question is was he a PG or a SG. To claim otherwise is like trying to say Michael Jordan wasn't a SG because he played SF with the Wizards, or Magic Johnson wasn't a PG because he played PF when he made his brief post-HIV comeback.

BNM

Wilt Chamberlain led the NBA in assists one year. Maybe he should be in Wade's category, too.

 

[PapaG]

BTW, Oscar Robertson made 1st or 2nd team all NBA 11 times. Back in those days, the voting was for two guards, two forwards and one center. All 11 times, Robertson made 1st or 2nd team All-NBA, he was voted in as a guard. His peers, the coaches and the journalists all considered him a guard during his playing career. Any attempt to label him differently is revisionist history - and also just plain factually incorrect and misinformed. Most likely the clueless ramblings of someone who never actually saw him play.

BNM

I'm just saying I don't consider Oscar Robertson a 2-guard, and as you explain his game, and as I've read about it extensively, he seems more like a PG, although he rebounded like a forward. I have no issue saying the Big O is a better player than Wade, though. That seems obvious.

I like your little insult at the end, too. How dare anyone question the opinion of the great Boob-No-More!

 

[PapaG]

Why is Magic a PG, but Robertson a SG?

 

[PapaG]

Basketball Reference has him as a G/F

Every 'greatest PG' list has Robertson on it. I can't find a list that has him as a SG, and I can find a few that have him as a SF.

But, if he was a SG, who am I to argue with you?

 

[Denny Crane]

Maravich was an awesome player. He averaged 44 PPG for 3 years in college, then averaged 24.2 for his pro career, including 5 seasons over 25 PPG. He led the league in scoring once, but could have a number of times if he cared to.

He didn't play a lick of defense.

He might be the very best ballhandler in the history of the game. Bar none.

And Pippen was a PG.

 

[PapaG]

Maravich was an awesome player. He averaged 44 PPG for 3 years in college, then averaged 24.2 for his pro career, including 5 seasons over 25 PPG. He led the league in scoring once, but could have a number of times if he cared to.

He didn't play a lick of defense.

He might be the very best ballhandler in the history of the game. Bar none.

And Pippen was a PG.

I don't care what Maravich did in college. He was not better than Dwyane Wade as a pro 2-guard. He also averaged only 4 apg, but with 4 tpg, once the NBA started tracking those stats in the late '70s.

If Pippen was a PG, then a lot of players were PGs who aren't considered PGs. Ron Harper brought the ball up the court plenty for those Bulls teams.

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't care what Maravich did in college. He was not better than Dwyane Wade as a pro 2-guard. He also averaged only 4 apg, but with 4 tpg, once the NBA started tracking those stats in the late '70s.

If Pippen was a PG, then a lot of players were PGs who aren't considered PGs. Ron Harper brought the ball up the court plenty for those Bulls teams.

What do you call the guy who dribbles the ball up court 99% of the time, plays at the top of the key, is the first man back on defense, leads the team in assists year after year?

PG.

When he actually played SF, on Houston, he wasn't really that good.

At least the Blazers figured it out and started him over mighty mouse. At point guard.

Maravich averaged over 5 APG for his career. The only seasons he averaged less than 5 were his last and his first. He shot the ball 28 times a game. It's not surprising he'd have a few turnovers.