Kenny Smith: Zach Randolph is the best post player in the league

[RoyToy]

Pritchard deserved to get fired for the ZBO trade and the Imaginary Cap Space fiasco. Nice guy. He made some good moves, but failing in his cap space endeavors is his lasting legacy.

Nah

ZBO trade didn't hurt him at all and he used cap space to sign Miller.

Not really a factor at all.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Nah

ZBO trade didn't hurt him at all and he used cap space to sign Miller.

Not really a factor at all.

False. He basically waited and waited for that contract to expire (Francis) to do anything. He was less active and didn't want to use up RLEC because of the Imaginary Cap Space.

Horrible management of cap space by KP and the "Cap Genius" Tom Penn.

 

[RoyToy]

He didn't use RLEC because he didn't get a good offer(Carter, Jefferson, etc), and used it Miller instead.

Looks like the right move to me.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

He didn't use RLEC because he didn't get a good offer(Carter, Jefferson, etc), and used it Miller instead.

Looks like the right move to me.

nope. 2+ years of waiting for contracts to expire while paying a guy to stay home, giving up Allstar PF who leads his teams past the first round in the playoffs, scared to make trades to preserve cap space and having one of the most valuable trading assets in NBA history for Andre Miller, who was actually only signed because Hedo Turkgolu didn't like Portland nightlife.

 

[STOMP]

nope. 2+ years of waiting for contracts to expire while paying a guy to stay home, giving up Allstar PF who leads his teams past the first round in the playoffs, scared to make trades to preserve cap space and having one of the most valuable trading assets in NBA history for Andre Miller, who was actually only signed because Hedo Turkgolu didn't like Portland nightlife.

Andre was signed with the "imaginary cap space"... sorry. Is the reason you refuse to acknowledge the obvious because you whined about it for so long? Notice how no else is taking your side?

STOMP

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Andre was signed with the "imaginary cap space"... sorry. Is the reason you refuse to acknowledge the obvious because you whined about it for so long? Notice how no else is taking your side?

STOMP

ZBO + RLEC. For all the hype, we got relatively nothing back. People were justifying 1, maybe 2 max contract type players (hence the Cap Genius moniker and the justification to not sign or make trades or resign players that would damage that cap space plan).

Andre is great and all but he clearly isn't the answer nor what KP was expecting to be the FA market at the time. He greatly overestimated the free agency crop and had to scramble to sign SOMEONE. I'd rather have ZBO and start Patty Mills at the PG.

 

[RoyToy]

nope. 2+ years of waiting for contracts to expire while paying a guy to stay home, giving up Allstar PF who leads his teams past the first round in the playoffs, scared to make trades to preserve cap space and having one of the most valuable trading assets in NBA history for Andre Miller, who was actually only signed because Hedo Turkgolu didn't like Portland nightlife.

giving up Allstar PF who leads his teams past the first round in the playoffs

The Blazers didn't a trade an all-star PF. They traded a guy who was massively overpaid and immature. Nice try at twisting the facts, though.

As for the rest, you're clearly misinformed. The Blazers were trying to trade RLEC, but the offers they got weren't worth it. Trading for Richard Jefferson and Vince Carter is dumb, and the Bobcats wanted Batum in the deal for Crash. KP made the right move in walking away and upgrading the PG position instead.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

It is still my firm belief that KP and Penn oversold the dreams of Imaginary Cap Space to the rest of the Blazers Brass and Paul Allen with the hope to sign a top player in the league with the money. However, when that all crumbled and turned into Hedo Turkglu and then Andre Miller, I think the writing was on the wall. Went from having and "incredible cap space situation" into "hey who is left" type of scenario.

And this is why they were fired. Allen lost trust in them for this reason.

 

[RoyToy]

ZBO + RLEC. For all the hype, we got relatively nothing back. People were justifying 1, maybe 2 max contract type players (hence the Cap Genius moniker and the justification to not sign or make trades or resign players that would damage that cap space plan).

Andre is great and all but he clearly isn't the answer nor what KP was expecting to be the FA market at the time. He greatly overestimated the free agency crop and had to scramble to sign SOMEONE. I'd rather have ZBO and start Patty Mills at the PG.

The MAX contracts plan went to hell when Darius Miles played in 10 NBA games. The Grizzlies set out to screw the Blazers and KP had no control over it. People should remember that when cheering for them in these playoffs. They screwed the Blazers big time.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

The Blazers didn't a trade an all-star PF. They traded a guy who was massively overpaid and immature. Nice try at twisting the facts, though.

As for the rest, you're clearly misinformed. The Blazers were trying to trade RLEC, but the offers they got weren't worth it. Trading for Richard Jefferson and Vince Carter is dumb, and the Bobcats wanted Batum in the deal for Crash. KP made the right move in walking away and upgrading the PG position instead.

Is ZBO an allstar PF or not? Under that "massively overpaid contract", which he apparently right now is worth. I remember at the time, I listed players at his salary level and he wasn't really "massively overpaid". It was a myth, much like any potential problems he would bring to the Blazers. Look at him now. A "miraculous turnaround" whom no one could have predicted (well, except me who has been screaming this shit for the past 3 years to your deaf ears).

If KP couldn't do shit with RLEC that's his own fault. Huge expiring contract paid for by insurance and he couldn't unload it? Clear failure on his part. Its fuck or walk. You close or you hit the bricks.

 

[RoyToy]

It is still my firm belief that KP and Penn oversold the dreams of Imaginary Cap Space to the rest of the Blazers Brass and Paul Allen with the hope to sign a top player in the league with the money. However, when that all crumbled and turned into Hedo Turkglu and then Andre Miller, I think the writing was on the wall. Went from having and "incredible cap space situation" into "hey who is left" type of scenario.

And this is why they were fired. Allen lost trust in them for this reason.

Nah, not at all

You can't sign who isn't available, and they ended up getting a good player out of it. Hardly damning.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

The MAX contracts plan went to hell when Darius Miles played in 10 NBA games. The Grizzlies set out to screw the Blazers and KP had no control over it. People should remember that when cheering for them in these playoffs. They screwed the Blazers big time.

ahh. yes. another excuse. That's why Imaginary Cap Space was such a terrible plan.

1. You don't know what the market is going to be like 2 years into the future
2. Any external factors can immediately change the cap situation and you'll be left with nothing

which is what happened.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Nah, not at all

You can't sign who isn't available, and they ended up getting a good player out of it. Hardly damning.

For waiting all that time and passing other opportunities to improve the roster for the preservation of this imaginar cap space, yes it was.

 

[RoyToy]

Is ZBO an allstar PF or not? Under that "massively overpaid contract", which he apparently right now is worth. I remember at the time, I listed players at his salary level and he wasn't really "massively overpaid". It was a myth, much like any potential problems he would bring to the Blazers. Look at him now. A "miraculous turnaround" whom no one could have predicted (well, except me who has been screaming this shit for the past 3 years to your deaf ears).

If KP couldn't do shit with RLEC that's his own fault. Huge expiring contract paid for by insurance and he couldn't unload it? Clear failure on his part. Its fuck or walk. You close or you hit the bricks.

At the time ZBO was traded, no, he had never made an all-star team. Again, that is a fact. Sorry it kills your argument, but that's not my fault.

He was massively overpaid, and his contract went past the 2010 FA, and that's why no smart team would trade for him. Pretty simple. Immature player with a terrible contract.....Yuck.

He's definitely a different player now and it is a turnaround, and he's a better player now than he was with the Blazers. It's nice to see him finally grow up.

KP did do something with RLEC, and that's Andre Miller, who was actually one of the rumored targets at the trade deadline. Turning down Jefferson, Carter, Wallace was the right move. In the end he got a good player and that's what matters most.

 

[RoyToy]

For waiting all that time and passing other opportunities to improve the roster for the preservation of this imaginar cap space, yes it was.

Sounds like a crazy rumor on your part.

Doesn't mean much to me, but if it means something to you, go for it.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

At the time ZBO was traded, no, he had never made an all-star team. Again, that is a fact. Sorry it kills your argument, but that's not my fault.

He was massively overpaid, and his contract went past the 2010 FA, and that's why no smart team would trade for him. Pretty simple. Immature player with a terrible contract.....Yuck.

He's definitely a different player now and it is a turnaround, and he's a better player now than he was with the Blazers. It's nice to see him finally grow up.

KP did do something with RLEC, and that's Andre Miller, who was actually one of the rumored targets at the trade deadline. Turning down Jefferson, Carter, Wallace was the right move. In the end he got a good player and that's what matters most.

But in the term of his contract that Portland signed him to, he became an allstar. And came out of the first round of the NBA playoffs as the team leader. That's pretty good for an "overpaid immature" player as you claim he is.

So...if RLEC became Andre Miller, what did the cap space we reserved for 2+ years with ZBO become then?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

oh yeah, he also won the community assist award too. Damned immature gangsters.

 

[RoyToy]

But in the term of his contract that Portland signed him to, he became an allstar. And came out of the first round of the NBA playoffs as the team leader. That's pretty good for an "overpaid immature" player as you claim he is.

Yeah, he's turned it around nicely. He's a better player now and isn't the same player the Blazers traded. Not sure how you're not getting this, but I suspect you're not trying to.

So...if RLEC became Andre Miller, what did the cap space we reserved for 2+ years with ZBO become then?

Don't exactly remember how it all worked out, but they still got his contract off the books much sooner.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Yeah, he's turned it around nicely. He's a better player now and isn't the same player the Blazers traded. Not sure how you're not getting this, but I suspect you're not trying to.

Don't exactly remember how it all worked out, but they still got his contract off the books much sooner.

He's the same player the blazers had. This "turning around" and "new environment" is a bunch of baloney.

OK. The Blazers got ZBO's contract off the books sooner. What did they do with that then. After paying $24million to Steve Francis to sit in the Caribbean. And ZBO's overpaid. All he's done is turnaround a franchise, been called the best low post player in the league, the best PF in the league (by Durant), all star appearance, community assist award, and gotten out of the first round in the NBA Playoffs.

The Blazers, for all the genius moves? They got an aged PG that didn't get along with the franchise player, another first round exit, mediocrity and no reason for him to stay on the team since the team isn't ready to compete at the next level.

Look at the scoreboard. The Blazers fucked up badly by trading Zach for what they did.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

"b-b-bu-but ZBO likes strip clubs"
:MARIS61:

 

[RoyToy]

He's the same player the blazers had. This "turning around" and "new environment" is a bunch of baloney.

I don't agree with that at all and I've seen various posters make the case that's he's clearly a better player now(probably even directed at you).

OK. The Blazers got ZBO's contract off the books sooner. What did they do with that then. After paying $24million to Steve Francis to sit in the Caribbean. And ZBO's overpaid. All he's done is turnaround a franchise, been called the best low post player in the league, the best PF in the league (by Durant), all star appearance, community assist award, and gotten out of the first round in the NBA Playoffs.

Yeah, great turnaround. It only took him 3 years after he was traded to figure it out.

The Blazers, for all the genius moves? They got an aged PG that didn't get along with the franchise player, another first round exit, mediocrity and no reason for him to stay on the team since the team isn't ready to compete at the next level.

So that means the move is supposed to be recognized as a failure? Sorry, don't buy that at all. Miller isn't my ideal player, but I can't deny that he's been great for this team. A lot of Aldridge's improvement starts with Andre Miller.

Look at the scoreboard. The Blazers fucked up badly by trading Zach for what they did.

Clearly your opinion. They traded a player who at the time was massively overpaid and immature, and that's not something you want on a team with young players that's rebuilding. It was a necessary move that really hasn't hurt the Blazers one bit. Aldridge was the all-star snub, not Randolph.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Randolph is still playing. And is clearly better in the playoffs this year. You know, where it actually counts.

Maybe ZBO is a better player now...but he was still a great player back then too. Just didn't have any support around him as far as teammates and he was also villified by the local beat writers and sanctimonious fans under the guise of some moral code over winning. He's always been a hard worker, not just in contract years too. Sure he may not be super muscular but that's his body type...he does well with what he has, even though he's shorter and can't jump as well as other PFs in the league. You don't average 20/10 for most of your career and be overpaid.

And it was a good turnaround. 3 years...big deal. He did figure it out. And he's advanced further than any Portland team has in 11 years.

Sure, Miller has been fine for the team. I wouldn't say he's great though. Some nice veteran experience...it was really more of Roy's injury than Miller's influence that caused Aldridge to take more of the scoring load really.

It was hardly a necessary move and it has hurt the Blazers greatly. They really fucked this one up. They had so much flexibility back then, and they managed to screw it up. They haven't had a backup PF or reliable rotation at that spot and still don't. They've been playing SFs at the 4. Signing NBDL talent to make ends meet.

 

[RoyToy]

Randolph is still playing. And is clearly better in the playoffs this year. You know, where it actually counts.

Team success is pretty lame when comparing two players.

He's also not even close to being capable of playing the 2nd most minutes in the NBA like Aldridge did. ZBo would keel over after a week of doing that.

I'd rather have Aldridge. He's much younger and way more versatile.

 

[Tince]

The "player X" is still playing (in the playoffs) and "player Y" isn't argument is weak.

DeShawn Stevenson is still in the playoffs and Kobe Bryant isn't. All that tells me is that the Mavericks were better than the Lakers.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Team success is pretty lame when comparing two players.

He's also not even close to being capable of playing the 2nd most minutes in the NBA like Aldridge did. ZBo would keel over after a week of doing that.

I'd rather have Aldridge. He's much younger and way more versatile.

Zach plays 3 minutes less per game. Big deal.

I'd rather have Aldridge too. But I'd rather have ZBO than the Imaginary Cap Space plan and what we got back (which you seem to not be able to exactly hammer down what that was).

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

The "player X" is still playing (in the playoffs) and "player Y" isn't argument is weak.

DeShawn Stevenson is still in the playoffs and Kobe Bryant isn't. All that tells me is that the Mavericks were better than the Lakers.

Well, if DeShawn Stevenson is the main reason they're still playing you would have an argument. But you don't, so you're argument is weak.

Face it, ZBO is the reason the Grizzlies are in the second round. If I were comparing say...Sam Young to Kobe Bryant maybe you would have a point but I'm not so you don't.

 

[RoyToy]

Zach plays 3 minutes less per game. Big deal.

I'd rather have Aldridge too. But I'd rather have ZBO than the Imaginary Cap Space plan and what we got back (which you seem to not be able to exactly hammer down what that was).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_leaders.html

Tell me when you find ZBo

I'm not even sure ZBo was a huge part in the expiring contracts. I think that was more RLEC+Darius.

As far as Zach, they got Frye and something else that helped them get James Jones.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_leaders.html
Tell me when you find ZBo

I'm not even sure ZBo was a huge part in the expiring contracts. I think that was more RLEC+Darius.

As far as Zach, they got Frye and something else that helped them get James Jones.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/playe...itScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=

Oh look. Chris Paul would keel over and die faster than ZBO since he averages less minutes than Zach Randolph.

You're grasping at straws here. I really can't believe you brought that up in this thread.

 

[RoyToy]

http://www.nba.com/statistics/playe...itScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=

Oh look. Chris Paul would keel over and die faster than ZBO since he averages less minutes than Zach Randolph.

You're grasping at straws here. I really can't believe you brought that up in this thread.

First, you're getting away from my original point between Aldridge and ZBo. Why would you want to do that? hmmm

Also, once again, you're twisting the facts. Chris Paul played more minutes than ZBo this year. Chris Paul played over 250 more minutes than ZBo. Facts just don't seem to be your thing.

Not grasping at anything. In between you not understanding statistics, I'm bringing real facts to the table and making valid points. You seem to be the one grasping at straws honestly.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

First, you're getting away from my original point between Aldridge and ZBo. Why would you want to do that? hmmm

Also, once again, you're twisting the facts. Chris Paul played more minutes than ZBo this year. Chris Paul played over 250 more minutes than ZBo. Facts just don't seem to be your thing.

Not grasping at anything. In between you not understanding statistics, I'm bringing real facts to the table and making valid points. You seem to be the one grasping at straws honestly.

Yes. Let's bring as many stupid fucking statistics that really don't mean jack shit as we can here for some obscure argument I don't know where you are going with.

LaMarcus Aldridge good? ok.

what the fuck does that have to do what we're talking about here?

holy fucking shit, its a waste of time here. You're just pulling irrelevant shit out of your ass, throwing it against the wall and hoping it sticks.