Kenny Smith: Zach Randolph is the best post player in the league

[EL PRESIDENTE]

First, you're getting away from my original point between Aldridge and ZBo. Why would you want to do that? hmmm

I already said several times I like Aldridge over ZBO. I said that at draft day for fucks sake. I just said what we traded him for was bullshit and there was no real plan.

Yeah, keep on hmmm'ing yourself. I'm sure you'll figure out what you're trying to prove here eventually.

 

[RoyToy]

holy fucking shit, its a waste of time here. You're just pulling irrelevant shit out of your ass, throwing it against the wall and hoping it sticks.

Lol

You only say that because I carved up your reply to my minutes played post. It's not my fault you make it so easy.

That said, this has been fun, but I'm tired of being right in this thread for tonight. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Lol

You only say that because I carved up your reply to my minutes played post. It's not my fault you make it so easy.

That said, this has been fun, but I'm tired of being right in this thread for tonight. Maybe tomorrow.

You haven't carved shit. But go ahead and pull some other obscure stat that has nothing to do with my assertation that the ZBO trade and the imaginary cap space plan was a horrible failure.

"But LaMarcus Aldridge plays the 2nd most minutes in the league!"

 

[Tince]

Well, if DeShawn Stevenson is the main reason they're still playing you would have an argument. But you don't, so you're argument is weak.

Face it, ZBO is the reason the Grizzlies are in the second round. If I were comparing say...Sam Young to Kobe Bryant maybe you would have a point but I'm not so you don't.

Ok, so lets agree Zach is Memphis' best player. Let's also agree Kobe Bryant is the Lakers best player. Because Memphis is still in the playoffs and the Lakers are not, does that mean Zach is better than Kobe?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Ok, so lets agree Zach is Memphis' best player. Let's also agree Kobe Bryant is the Lakers best player. Because Memphis is still in the playoffs and the Lakers are not, does that mean Zach is better than Kobe?

This year in the playoffs? Yes.

X

 

[Tince]

This year in the playoffs? Yes.

X

Ok, I'll buy that logic. I will buy that Zach has also been better than LMA in the playoffs this year.

LMA was better than Zach in the 09 and 10 playoffs.

Neither has anything to do with a trade that happened years ago, comparing who is a better fit for Portland, etc.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Of course not. You have to compare zach for what we got back in return, not aldridge. A comparison I really never made at all and am confused why its brought up.

X

 

[STOMP]

You haven't carved shit. But go ahead and pull some other obscure stat that has nothing to do with my assertation that the ZBO trade and the imaginary cap space plan was a horrible failure.

[video=youtube;9r2pEdc1_lI]

STOMP

 

[magnifier661]

Holy shit I missed a flame war! Good read

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_leaders.html

Tell me when you find ZBo

Randolph
4th in rebounds, 4th in defensive rebounds, 2nd in offensive rebounds, 3rd in rebounds per game, 16th in field goals, 20th in points, 19th in points per game, 13th in PER, 12th in offensive win shares, 12th in win shares, 15th in win shares per 48 minutes.

Aldridge
2nd in minutes, 7th in field goals, 8th in FGA, 17th in FTA, 4th in offensive rebounds, 12th in total rebounds, 20th in blocked shots, 13th in points, 3rd in minutes per game, 14th in points per game, 14th in rebounds per game, 18th in PER, 12th in turnover pct., 10th in offensive win shares, 11th in win shares.

My POV is that Zach was a big time talent who was only 26 when he was traded, that being traded to a crappy team can be discouraging, and that Portland got not much in return for him. He could still be playing for the Blazers, or moved in a trade for much more in return.

 

[RoyToy]

Randolph
4th in rebounds, 4th in defensive rebounds, 2nd in offensive rebounds, 3rd in rebounds per game, 16th in field goals, 20th in points, 19th in points per game, 13th in PER, 12th in offensive win shares, 12th in win shares, 15th in win shares per 48 minutes.

Aldridge
2nd in minutes, 7th in field goals, 8th in FGA, 17th in FTA, 4th in offensive rebounds, 12th in total rebounds, 20th in blocked shots, 13th in points, 3rd in minutes per game, 14th in points per game, 14th in rebounds per game, 18th in PER, 12th in turnover pct., 10th in offensive win shares, 11th in win shares.

My POV is that Zach was a big time talent who was only 26 when he was traded, that being traded to a crappy team can be discouraging, and that Portland got not much in return for him. He could still be playing for the Blazers, or moved in a trade for much more in return.

.........................................

What don't people understand about trading huge contracts, especially for a guy that wasn't highly thought of?

Randolph's reputation was nearly the same in 2007 as it is now. He wasn't looked at as this kind of player at all.....because he wasn't. He was an immature player who was massively overpaid, and no one wants one of those. Combine that with his contract running through 2011, past the 2010 FA, and it's not likely at all the Blazers could have gotten more from him.

Saying the Blazers should have gotten more for Randolph is not being realistic. Hopefully you people will understand this one day.

 

[Denny Crane]

20/10 PFs are easy to come by, right?

 

[magnifier661]

20/10 PFs are easy to come by, right?

Very hard to come by. I think only Zach, Dwight Howard and who am I missing are the only players to average over 20 points and +10 rebounds a game.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

.........................................

What don't people understand about trading huge contracts, especially for a guy that wasn't highly thought of?

Randolph's reputation was nearly the same in 2007 as it is now. He wasn't looked at as this kind of player at all.....because he wasn't. He was an immature player who was massively overpaid, and no one wants one of those. Combine that with his contract running through 2011, past the 2010 FA, and it's not likely at all the Blazers could have gotten more from him.

Saying the Blazers should have gotten more for Randolph is not being realistic. Hopefully you people will understand this one day.

1. We got close to nothing back for him. Nothing that helped the team. I would go so far as to say it hurt the team because I believe Pritchard was reticent to make other trades in order to preserve his valuable cap space, which really didn't pan out close to anyone's expectations. For over 2 years, the Blazers were held hostage in the name of preserving this cap space, while at the same time not addressing its real needs.

2. Again, based on current contracts at the time and production, he really wasn't overpaid. He was not a Brandon Roy situation where he's getting paid a lot but not producing. He's always produced. He wouldn't have been an allstar if he did not produce. But then again, the Zach haters at the time brought up he never made it to the playoffs and was a stat-machine that inhibited winning. So now we have him winning in the playoffs and the Zach haters are trying to justify Pritchard selling "low" and still believing it helped the Blazers.

3. If that was the best Pritchard could get back from ZBO, he's a horrible GM and should be fired, which he was.

 

[Masbee]

Nah, not at all

You can't sign who isn't available, and they ended up getting a good player out of it. Hardly damning.

Ha ha. If it is "hardly damning", then why the fuck is KP unemployed by an NBA front office?

 

[RoyToy]

20/10 PFs are easy to come by, right?

Are you not understanding that his contract ran through this season, and that he wasn't worth it at the time KP traded him?

It's like you guys are purposely ignoring the fact he was traded 3 times for basically nothing. No one wanted his contract and he was just coming off of MF surgery.

Oh btw..

[H]e sucker-punched teammate Ruben Patterson in the face during a practice scuffle in 2003, an act which earned him a two-game suspension. He also has been cited for underage drinking and driving under the influence of marijuana, and was present when his brother Roger Randolph was involved in a shooting in an Indiana nightclub. After an initial interrogation by police, he was threatened with arrest based on his statement; Randolph gave a second statement and was not charged in the incident. His brother was ultimately convicted in the matter and sentenced to prison.
…
On June 8th, 2006, Randolph ran into further legal trouble when two vehicles, both registered in his name, were pulled over by the Portland Police for racing in a 20 mph speed zone. Randolph's car contained two loaded weapons under the seat of the vehicle; Randolph had legal permits for both guns. The officers claimed they detected marijuana odor coming from Randolph's car. In August 2006, a sexual assault complaint was filed with Portland police over an incident with a stripper in a Portland hotel room; after a month-long investigation, the Multnomah County district attorney declined to prosecute Randolph, citing insufficient evidence. Additionally, Randolph is facing a civil suit related to that case, and another alleging that Randolph and friends tried to intimidate witnesses in former teammate Qyntel Woods's dog fighting case.

Questionable character, black hole on the court, huge contract on top of it? Yuck. All of that is exactly why the Blazers traded him, and why a lot of teams weren't willing to give up much. Too big of a risk. 3 years after the Blazers traded him it's nice to see he finally grew up. It's a shame it couldn't happen sooner.

Ha ha. If it is "hardly damning", then why the fuck is KP unemployed by an NBA front office?

Can you conclude that is what got him fired? I bet not.

No one knows why KP was fired, but I think we have an idea it had more to do than just basketball reasons. If Allen thought KP was such a terrible basketball mind he wouldn't have asked him to finish the draft the same day he fired him.

#winning

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Are you not understanding that his contract ran through this season, and that he wasn't worth it at the time KP traded him?

It's like you guys are purposely ignoring the fact he was traded 3 times for basically nothing. No one wanted his contract and he was just coming off of MF surgery.

Oh btw..



Questionable character, black hole on the court, huge contract on top of it? Yuck. All of that is exactly why the Blazers traded him, and why a lot of teams weren't willing to give up much. Too big of a risk. 3 years after the Blazers traded him it's nice to see he finally grew up. It's a shame it couldn't happen sooner.



Can you conclude that is what got him fired? I bet not.

No one knows why KP was fired, but I think we have an idea it had more to do than just basketball reasons. If Allen thought KP was such a terrible basketball mind he wouldn't have asked him to finish the draft the same day he fired him.

#winning

He was still a 20/10 power forward. Almost his whole career.

I believe every gm that traded him got fired. Its more indicative of the gm than the player.

The real risk is what the blazers did and the end result is no good.
X

 

[Denny Crane]

Are you not understanding that his contract ran through this season, and that he wasn't worth it at the time KP traded him?

It's a big contract, but again, you don't find 20/10 guys that easily so he was always worth the money, IMO.

The questionable character is all a part of the culture. You didn't have to purge every player to change that.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Yes. Looking back zach was certainly worth the contract. Which means kevin pritchard is a poor evaluator of talent.

X

 

[RoyToy]

It's a big contract, but again, you don't find 20/10 guys that easily so he was always worth the money, IMO.

The questionable character is all a part of the culture. You didn't have to purge every player to change that.

And it was a contract that most people would say he wasn't worth. It was basically a MAX contract, and no one at that time in their right mind would say ZBo was a MAX contract player. MF surgery...no defense...bad shot selection...eww.

Sure, there were teams interested in him. As you say teams are always looking to get their hands on 20/10 guys....They're just not going to give up a lot for a guy with Zach's red flags. Too big of risk financially since he was a different player and person back then. 3 years later it's nice to see he was finally able to put it together, but saying the Blazers should have got more value for him isn't being realistic.

 

[RR7]

Great. Are you going to still be crying about this shit five years from now? My god.

 

[RoyToy]

I remember the Bulls were interested in ZBo but a deal never materialized.

Thoughts on that, Denny?

 

[Minstrel]

I don't think Pritchard made a good decision in dealing Zach, and I'm a Pritchard fan.

On the other hand, I've gotten over it. Things would have progressed differently had he not been traded for pennies on the dollar and while I think the team would have won more, it's possible that they wouldn't have.

 

[BrianFromWA]

20/10 PFs are easy to come by, right?

Haven't the Bulls been looking for one for years, and never even called up NYK or LAC to offer up crap for him?

 

[Denny Crane]

I remember the Bulls were interested in ZBo but a deal never materialized.

Thoughts on that, Denny?

We saved up a bunch of cap space to sign Boozer. Who'd you rather have?

 

[Denny Crane]

Haven't the Bulls been looking for one for years, and never even called up NYK or LAC to offer up crap for him?

The owner is a CHEAPSKATE. They traded a 20/10 guy away (Brand) who became an All-Star. They told us Tyson Chandler would be a 20/10 guy and even better. Some people drank that kool-aid.

The lesson learned is that a 20/10 guy is worth two in the bush.

 

[RoyToy]

We saved up a bunch of cap space to sign Boozer. Who'd you rather have?

Now isn't that interesting. The Bulls chose cap space over a 20/10 guy with tons of baggage and other concerns. Hmm.

I think I've seen someone else do that.

 

[Denny Crane]

Now isn't that interesting. The Bulls chose cap space over a 20/10 guy with tons of baggage and other concerns. Hmm.

I think I've seen someone else do that.

The Bulls owner was never interested in winning, just profit. The Bulls have been making $50M+ in PROFIT since the dynasty was blown up. That's yearly.

Chandler was on a rookie scale contract for years when they would have been paying Brand the MAX otherwise.

If you want to make the case that PA is cheap and only cares about profit, then go for it.

You might doubt me if there wasn't this consistent pattern with the Bulls. They traded Jamal Crawford, then Eddy Curry, then Chandler, then Ben Gordon when their rookie contracts ran out as well. All but Chandler were the team's leading scorer, too, and on teams that won 47 and 49 games. All for expiring contracts. They paid Tim Thomas MAX for a season and told him not to show up for practice or the games... LOL

 

[RoyToy]

The Bulls owner was never interested in winning, just profit. The Bulls have been making $50M+ in PROFIT since the dynasty was blown up. That's yearly.

Chandler was on a rookie scale contract for years when they would have been paying Brand the MAX otherwise.

If you want to make the case that PA is cheap and only cares about profit, then go for it.

You might doubt me if there wasn't this consistent pattern with the Bulls. They traded Jamal Crawford, then Eddy Curry, then Chandler, then Ben Gordon when their rookie contracts ran out as well. All but Chandler were the team's leading scorer, too, and on teams that won 47 and 49 games. All for expiring contracts. They paid Tim Thomas MAX for a season and told him not to show up for practice or the games... LOL

The Bulls were just an example as I remember there being talks about ZBo being traded to Chicago. Plenty of other teams chose to do the same thing because of the length of his contract, and that it ran through 2010. Hell, that's why the Knicks ended up trading him.

ZBo with that contract and his level of play was just too risky, and that's why it was next to impossible to get anything great for him. He's been traded 3 times for almost nothing, and I don't think it's a coincidence. No one is going to give up a lot of value for a player with a MAX salary that isn't a MAX player. It's a gamble, and it's a gamble that didn't work out for the Knicks and Clippers. It ended up working for Memphis as Zach finally matured as a player and person.

edit - Btw, I'm sure the Bulls aren't the only team with a cheap owner.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Haven't the Bulls been looking for one for years, and never even called up NYK or LAC to offer up crap for him?

again, they have bad GMs. Eligin Baylor and Isiah Thomas.