Lesbian couple refused wedding cake files state discrimination complaint

[SlyPokerDog]

Some info on Kosher.

"A kosher bakery uses kosher ingredients to produce the end product as kosher. Here is an example of where some complexity could enter into the picture. Kosher ingredients may be used but processed on non-kosher equipment. Items used in processing that are often not listed as ingredients could also make the end result non-kosher"

It is some of items in the process of the Wedding cake that bring up the question.

I'm not Jewish so I don't really care. All I did was search for Jewish Gay Wedding Cakes in Google images. If you would like to know more about Kosher wedding cakes may I suggest you too perform a google search.

 

[MarAzul]

I'm not Jewish so I don't really care. All I did was search for Jewish Gay Wedding Cakes in Google images. If you would like to know more about Kosher wedding cakes may I suggest you too perform a google search.

Naw, I don't really give a shit either. I just wanted to see if I could provoke a bull shit response for someone that did care. The Idea of a Kosher cake for a gay wedding did give me a chuckle though. But I am surprised you came with the bull shit.

 

[Further]

There is no blessing a rabbi (or any person for that matter) can say to make food kosher. The term “Kosher” refers to the fact that all of the ingredients within a given product (or process of production) are Biblically and Rabbinically permitted. Kosher food is initially defined in the Torah. Permitted animals have to be slaughtered (and then soaked and salted) in a certain way to make their meat kosher. Meat products and Dairy products are kept separate…and there is much more! The role of the kosher supervisor is to ensure that all of the ingredients — and the process in which those ingredients are used — are (you guessed it!) kosher.

If the ingredients are Kosher than the food is Kosher. You may argue sects of Judaism would or would not approve of the marriage, but the food is most certainly Kosher even if it's being baked into the shape of a cross with frosting that says "screw god".

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

There is no blessing a rabbi (or any person for that matter) can say to make food kosher. The term “Kosher” refers to the fact that all of the ingredients within a given product (or process of production) are Biblically and Rabbinically permitted. Kosher food is initially defined in the Torah. Permitted animals have to be slaughtered (and then soaked and salted) in a certain way to make their meat kosher. Meat products and Dairy products are kept separate…and there is much more! The role of the kosher supervisor is to ensure that all of the ingredients — and the process in which those ingredients are used — are (you guessed it!) kosher.

If the ingredients are Kosher than the food is Kosher. You may argue sects of Judaism would or would not approve of the marriage, but the food is most certainly Kosher even if it's being baked into the shape of a cross with frosting that says "screw god".

Money talks, bullshit walks.

You think "kosher wine" is really kosher? If you only knew (or Kewish people wanting kosher wine)....

 

[MarAzul]

There is no blessing a rabbi (or any person for that matter) can say to make food kosher. The term “Kosher” refers to the fact that all of the ingredients within a given product (or process of production) are Biblically and Rabbinically permitted. Kosher food is initially defined in the Torah. Permitted animals have to be slaughtered (and then soaked and salted) in a certain way to make their meat kosher. Meat products and Dairy products are kept separate…and there is much more! The role of the kosher supervisor is to ensure that all of the ingredients — and the process in which those ingredients are used — are (you guessed it!) kosher.

If the ingredients are Kosher than the food is Kosher. You may argue sects of Judaism would or would not approve of the marriage, but the food is most certainly Kosher even if it's being baked into the shape of a cross with frosting that says "screw god".

My guess is it depends upon your view of the wedding cake. Whether the salient ingredient is the Wedding or the Cake.

 

[Further]

Money talks, bullshit walks.

You think "kosher wine" is really kosher? If you only knew (or Kewish people wanting kosher wine)....

basically all the ingredients in wine are kosher already, to be kosher there just needs to be a Sabbath observing Jew involved in all parts of the wine making process.

It's kind of funny, I went over to some friends of the family house for the Sabbath a couple years ago, and they made a big deal about serving kosher wine. But then she served the wine alongside a meal that included fresh oysters, a cream sauce for the chicken, and yes, you guessed it, bacon bits in the salad. Of course they weren't kosher, but thought that getting kosher wine was just a nice touch to connect us to our brethren throughout the land.

 

[Further]

My guess is it depends upon your view of the wedding cake. Whether the salient ingredient is the Wedding or the Cake.

The ingredients are the flour, sugar..., not the wedding or the cake. The cake is the product of those ingredients and the wedding is the occasion at which the cake will be served. I really don't get what your argument is. I'm not claiming that many Orthodox Jews wouldn't be against the wedding or that the Bible doesn't speak against gays, I'm simply saying that kosher is about the ingredients and process, not about other conflicts with the Bible or religion. An analogy for you, it's like if the police do an illegal search and seizure, but someone keeps saying that violates the first amendment. It violates the 4th, and the person could point that out and look reasonable, but when they keep saying it violates the first amendment they seem silly.

 

[maxiep]

I think it's sad that the bakery refused service to anyone. If that's their religious beliefs, that's their religious beliefs. They disagree with gay marriage. It's sad. It's unfortunate. It's unkind. It's not the "human" thing to do. We should all love one another.

That being said, I think it's stupid the couple filed a complaint. It's as annoying and obnoxious as the do-gooder little girl in elementary school that is the ultimate teacher's pet. Tattletale, tattletale. If they don't like it, they should say "F off - we'll take our business elsewhere," and leave it at that.

Exactly right. Repped.

 

[MarAzul]

The ingredients are the flour, sugar..., not the wedding or the cake. The cake is the product of those ingredients and the wedding is the occasion at which the cake will be served. I really don't get what your argument is. I'm not claiming that many Orthodox Jews wouldn't be against the wedding or that the Bible doesn't speak against gays, I'm simply saying that kosher is about the ingredients and process, not about other conflicts with the Bible or religion. An analogy for you, it's like if the police do an illegal search and seizure, but someone keeps saying that violates the first amendment. It violates the 4th, and the person could point that out and look reasonable, but when they keep saying it violates the first amendment they seem silly.

If you say so Further. However the Baker may not agree with you, they would be pleased to make a cake, but refused to make a Wedding Cake.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

basically all the ingredients in wine are kosher already, to be kosher there just needs to be a Sabbath observing Jew involved in all parts of the wine making process.

It's kind of funny, I went over to some friends of the family house for the Sabbath a couple years ago, and they made a big deal about serving kosher wine. But then she served the wine alongside a meal that included fresh oysters, a cream sauce for the chicken, and yes, you guessed it, bacon bits in the salad. Of course they weren't kosher, but thought that getting kosher wine was just a nice touch to connect us to our brethren throughout the land.

As I said, money talks, bullshit walks. It's a very simple process. There's a lot of "kosher" wine out there that took nothing more than money.

 

[maxiep]

The baker is an asshole for refusing to make the cake, but it's his right to be an asshole. The couple are assholes for dragging this into the courts, but it's their right to be assholes.

My advice to the couple would be to find a baker who wants their business. My advice to the baker would be to STFU and make the damned cake.

If this makes it to a court date, I hope the baker countersues for violation of the Free Exercise Clause...

Repped.

 

[maxiep]

So they can refuse to sell to Black people . . . or only offer week old cakes to Black people.

Absolutely. And we all have the right to point out their bigotry and boycott that business.

 

[jlprk]

What if a gay couple wants a cherry-icing penis at the top of the cake? Does the baker have to make a cake he finds repulsive?

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I've been to a place that requires suit and tie or no service.

Ultimately, how is this different?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I've been to a place that requires suit and tie or no service.

Ultimately, how is this different?

Two obvious reasons:

• Because anybody can get a suit and tie if they want one.
• Because casual clothes wearers are not a protected class.

 

[KingSpeed]

How is it any different than this?

It's not any different. At all.

Its their business, so yes. If they want to take the backlash from it, so be it. Let people protest, well within their rights to do so. However, I don't think that they should be forced to do something that goes against their (and probably 90% of the world's religion's) beliefs.

They're not being asked to marry the couple. They're not being asked to engage in homosexual acts. They're being asked to make a cake. That is all.

 

[KingSpeed]

Two obvious reasons:

• Because anybody can get a suit and tie if they want one.
• Because casual clothes wearers are not a protected class.

Bingo

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I've been to a place that requires suit and tie or no service.

Ultimately, how is this different?

I was kidding.

Thanks for playing.

 

[KingSpeed]

Exactly right. Repped.

Not exactly right at all. We have to stand up for our rights or we will never be treated equally. That's like asking a black person in the 60s to say fuck off to the whites only establishments and just go to colored only ones. Seriously.

 

[KingSpeed]

Absolutely. And we all have the right to point out their bigotry and boycott that business.

No. At best, you're unaware of the law.

 

[Mediocre Man]

It's not any different. At all.



They're not being asked to marry the couple. They're not being asked to engage in homosexual acts. They're being asked to make a cake. That is all.

So wait a sec.

It would be wrong to force them them to perform the ceremony, but it's not wrong to force them to bake a cake? Does that mean a Christian pastor that said no to marrying them is different than a Christian baker who said no to baking for them?

 

[Denny Crane]

Not exactly right at all. We have to stand up for our rights or we will never be treated equally. That's like asking a black person in the 60s to say fuck off to the whites only establishments and just go to colored only ones. Seriously.

That's not what happened. Without govt. intervention or laws, black people in the 1960s boycotted establishments to the point their revenues hurt so bad they caved.

And the whole "separate but equal" supreme court decision (Plessy v. Ferguson) was about a railroad wanting to allow desegregation of the railway cars because it was more expensive to provide separate ones. That is, businesses generally do not want to discriminate.

If you're looking for a proper analogy, it would be like the government making laws saying establishments must not serve gay people.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I find it odd that while the LGBT group wants to be accepted and have their rights and beliefs. Yet, they're forcing everyone else to accept them and modify their own beliefs. Not everyone is going to accept you, not should they be forced to. If people want to be closed-minded, ignorant rednecks, they should be allowed to be. Is it a choice they're making to be this way, or were the born and/or molded with their attitude? Gee, does that question sound familiar?

We all need to accept we're all different and we all have different beliefs. We don't need to all be friends, but we so need to learn to coexist peacefully.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

So wait a sec.

It would be wrong to force them them to perform the ceremony, but it's not wrong to force them to bake a cake? Does that mean a Christian pastor that said no to marrying them is different than a Christian baker who said no to baking for them?

Very different. Marrying a homosexual couple is in essence condoning their homosexual sex. Baking for a homosexual couple is condoning their homosexual dessert. One is frowned upon in the Bible, the other, not so much.

Now, if you expected a Jewish bakery to make a cake that was not kosher (note, I know nothing about kosher laws), then that might be akin to asking a pastor to marry a gay couple.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Very different. Marrying a homosexual couple is in essence condoning their homosexual sex. Baking for a homosexual couple is condoning their homosexual dessert. One is frowned upon in the Bible, the other, not so much.

Now, if you expected a Jewish bakery to make a cake that was not kosher (note, I know nothing about kosher laws), then that might be akin to asking a pastor to marry a gay couple.

Wouldn't I, as a non Jewish person, be able to scream discrimination if a Jewish bakery refused to bake me a non kosher cake? I mean how dare they.

Or maybe have a bakery owned by a black family decorate a cake in black face.

Or have a GLBT bakery decorate a cake to read marriage is between a MAN and WOMAN ONLY.

if they refused I could sue them?

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Very different. Marrying a homosexual couple is in essence condoning their homosexual sex. Baking for a homosexual couple is condoning their homosexual dessert. One is frowned upon in the Bible, the other, not so much.

Now, if you expected a Jewish bakery to make a cake that was not kosher (note, I know nothing about kosher laws), then that might be akin to asking a pastor to marry a gay couple.

Knowingly providing a wedding cake to a gay couple is a form of condoning gay marriage. They bakery hadn't refused gay couples service in the past (at least from the bits and pieces I've seen in the news). They were simply refusing to make a wedding cake because they don't believe in gay marriage.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Knowingly providing a wedding cake to a gay couple is a form of condoning gay marriage. They bakery hadn't refused gay couples service in the past (at least from the bits and pieces I've seen in the news). They were simply refusing to make a wedding cake because they don't believe in gay marriage.

The bakery isn't an inherently religious entity, as contrasted with a church.

My Jewish bakery example may not have actually been valid, come to think of it, as the baker would not be being asked to eat the cake, just bake it, and there is no scriptural prohibition (so far as I know) on preparing non-kosher food, just on consuming.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

This case seems pretty easy to figure out to me. The bakery was a business open to the public and they refused service (making and selling a wedding cake) to a lesbian couple based on their sexual orientation.

Law in Oregon says you can't do that. The bakery owner wants to be able to make that decision so they shut down the public business and will now be making cakes privately out of their own home and can refuse to make a cake for anyone they want.

Kind of sucks for the bakery, but so do a lot of other things about running a business . . . so either play by the rules or don't open a business. Simple enough.

I understand people don't agree with the law, but the law itself seems pretty simple to understand.

 

[maxiep]

Not exactly right at all. We have to stand up for our rights or we will never be treated equally. That's like asking a black person in the 60s to say fuck off to the whites only establishments and just go to colored only ones. Seriously.

Equal treatment comes from changing minds, not changing laws.

I believe in freedom. I believe you should be free to have a civil union with your partner. I believe if a church wishes to consecrate that union, you should be free to marry your partner. I also believe that if a church believes your union to be a sin, they should have the right to deny your marriage in that church.

Likewise, I believe businesses should be free to sell to whomever they please, and deny service to whomever they please. I also have a right to not purchase items from a business that discriminates. Over time, these things become self-selecting as people vote with their wallets every day. Those businesses that discriminate will likely find themselves soon out of business.

I don't think I'd shop at this bakery; in fact, if I knew what they had done, I know I wouldn't. However, I will defend their right to serve whomever they wish.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I know what the law says. As many others have said over and over in this thread, we understand what the law says. We've also said we feel it's partly bullshit. It's pretty easy to follow, and I get the overall intent and overall purpose. But its' all-encompassing reach is an over-reach.