Lillard hypothetical

[Tince]

this is what Cronin told Blazer fans after 2023 deadline

"“The goal that we set when I started this job was to build a championship roster around Damian Lillard, so over the past year we’ve been transacting with that goal in mind. The goal going into this trade deadline was to be extremely aggressive."

> trading starting SF Josh Hart for 3 waived players, and a Philly bench guy is anything but aggressive

"Accumulate as many assets as possible in order to make a big push for high-end talent"

> who, where? Does tanking for picks count as the big push for high-end talent ?

"“We’re trying to support these guys with real defenders, with real size, with real length."

> Blazers are down 1 legit NBA Center. Asking Nurkic to hold down the fort while the little guys run around and pad stats is how the Blazers ended up in the lottery.

If Cronin is saying this stuff to Blazer fans, I'm sure the fabrication was cranked up even stronger being closed doors with Lillard.

People are throwing the term "liar" arround way too loosely. While I can't rule out that he did lie, I also can't prove he did. To call him a liar for these statements would require knowledge that he never intended/attempted to do the things he said he wanted to do. None of us have that knowledge.

Now, if people want to say that Cornin failed at accomplishing the objective(s) he stated, I think that's totally reasonable.

 

[Cugel]

what was he supposed to say?
"Our last gm and players fucking blow and no one wants to trade them for an all star?"
There is such a thing as tact in public speaking etc.

 

[blazerkor]

what was he supposed to say?
"Our last gm and players fucking blow and no one wants to trade them for an all star?"
There is such a thing as tact in public speaking etc.

Yeah, maybe in public but I think the conjecture that Joe almost verified in his presser in Vegas is that Joe told Dame to sit when we still had a realistic shot at the play-ins and definitely would have had a shot if we'd kept Hart, and he told Dame to do that so we could get a better pick that he would use to get Dame win now help. I mean Joe really did pretty much confirm that at his presser and said that he failed to do so and he understands why Dame is where he's at.

I don't think it was a lie, I think that Joe (like this front office going back to Olshey has done many times) overpromised to Dame and then the situation dictated them going in a direction opposite of the way they told Dame they would go. That's not a lie, it's a lack of foresight. That being said after it happening to Dame so many times, I can see why he would see it as a betrayal.

 

[andalusian]

I think that Joe told Dame that getting a better pick will help the team have assets to make the team better so they could compete. The problem is that Dame disagrees with the FO about keeping the picks as the better way of getting better, which basically comes down to Dame GM'ing vs Cronin GM'ing. Having seen what the Blazers did trying to make moves around the edges in the past and how well it worked, I am much more comfortable with Dame playing and a GM GM'ing.

 

[BonesJones]

People are throwing the term "liar" arround way too loosely. While I can't rule out that he did lie, I also can't prove he did. To call him a liar for these statements would require knowledge that he never intended/attempted to do the things he said he wanted to do. None of us have that knowledge.

Now, if people want to say that Cornin failed at accomplishing the objective(s) he stated, I think that's totally reasonable.

Since this is the point of your entire post - You don't have the knowledge of no one having "that knowledge". You don't know what everyone else knows.

 

[inconceivable]

Cronin will not give away Dame for poo poo platter because this is a career-defining moment for him as a GM

 

[Tince]

Since this is the point of your entire post - You don't have the knowledge of no one having "that knowledge". You don't know what everyone else knows.

I'm open to changing my mind. If anyone can provide proof he lied, I will move off my stance that we don't know if he lied. Again, I'm not saying he didn't lie, he's never lied, etc... I just don't have proof to call him a liar at this point.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Yeah, maybe in public but I think the conjecture that Joe almost verified in his presser in Vegas is that Joe told Dame to sit when we still had a realistic shot at the play-ins and definitely would have had a shot if we'd kept Hart, and he told Dame to do that so we could get a better pick that he would use to get Dame win now help. I mean Joe really did pretty much confirm that at his presser and said that he failed to do so and he understands why Dame is where he's at.

I don't think it was a lie, I think that Joe (like this front office going back to Olshey has done many times) overpromised to Dame and then the situation dictated them going in a direction opposite of the way they told Dame they would go. That's not a lie, it's a lack of foresight. That being said after it happening to Dame so many times, I can see why he would see it as a betrayal.

He confirmed that was the goal. And with the 7th or 8th pick that might have been possible... But there was nothing available for the 3 that would have been worth giving up a player like Scoot for.

That's not a lie. That is a plan not working out.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I think that Joe told Dame that getting a better pick will help the team have assets to make the team better so they could compete. The problem is that Dame disagrees with the FO about keeping the picks as the better way of getting better, which basically comes down to Dame GM'ing vs Cronin GM'ing. Having seen what the Blazers did trying to make moves around the edges in the past and how well it worked, I am much more comfortable with Dame playing and a GM GM'ing.

The 3 pick pushes Portland into rebuilding. Dame doesn't want to do that at this stage in his career.

I don't think he necessarily disagrees that rebuilding is the right thing for Portland to do at this point. He just doesn't want to be a part of a rebuild.

 

[BIG Q]

Yeah, maybe in public but I think the conjecture that Joe almost verified in his presser in Vegas is that Joe told Dame to sit when we still had a realistic shot at the play-ins and definitely would have had a shot if we'd kept Hart, and he told Dame to do that so we could get a better pick that he would use to get Dame win now help. I mean Joe really did pretty much confirm that at his presser and said that he failed to do so and he understands why Dame is where he's at.

I don't think it was a lie, I think that Joe (like this front office going back to Olshey has done many times) overpromised to Dame and then the situation dictated them going in a direction opposite of the way they told Dame they would go. That's not a lie, it's a lack of foresight. That being said after it happening to Dame so many times, I can see why he would see it as a betrayal.

I also think it was realistic for Joe to expect Lillard, Goodwin and the Dame camp to keep their damn mouths shut. But Dame had to go on his world tour and discuss his demand and the separate conversation he would have if his demands were not met. He killed the value of the 3rd pick and any other asset Portland had/has. Just like he has killed his trade value with his ridiculous trade demand to Miami only. Joe did not lie, he just didn't't expect Dame to do him dirty. Dame orchestrated this. Goodwin let the cat out of the bag when he had the conversation with that writer, Arnold is it?

 

[Idog1976]

People are throwing the term "liar" arround way too loosely. While I can't rule out that he did lie, I also can't prove he did. To call him a liar for these statements would require knowledge that he never intended/attempted to do the things he said he wanted to do. None of us have that knowledge.

Now, if people want to say that Cornin failed at accomplishing the objective(s) he stated, I think that's totally reasonable.

Bingo, exactly this!

 

[Idog1976]

I'm open to changing my mind. If anyone can provide proof he lied, I will move off my stance that we don't know if he lied. Again, I'm not saying he didn't lie, he's never lied, etc... I just don't have proof to call him a liar at this point.

I highly doubt BJ does either. He might have "sauces", but that isn't definitive proof, unless he has emails, texts, or recordings proving otherwise, all he has is "insider hearsay" at best.

 

[Idog1976]

He confirmed that was the goal. And with the 7th or 8th pick that might have been possible... But there was nothing available for the 3 that would have been worth giving up a player like Scoot for.

That's not a lie. That is a plan not working out.

I also think there was nothing worth giving up Sharpe for. Sharpe's ceiling is virtually unlimited and I think he will end up being the better player between the two, and I have Scoot as an All-Star level talent, who ironically, will make Sharpe a much better player.

 

[kjironman1]

Since this is the point of your entire post - You don't have the knowledge of no one having "that knowledge". You don't know what everyone else knows.

Trying to come in all cryptic that you have some source that nobody else has is weak.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I also think there was nothing worth giving up Sharpe for. Sharpe's ceiling is virtually unlimited and I think he will end up being the better player between the two, and I have Scoot as an All-Star level talent, who ironically, will make Sharpe a much better player.

I agree. Portland got a lot of luck to get those two, who could legitimately end up being the best players out of these drafts. Both have MVP type potential... You don't just trade that for a borderline all star...

 

[BonesJones]

Trying to come in all cryptic that you have some source that nobody else has is weak.

I'm not the one with the source. How am I being cryptic when this has been explained numerous times?

People can believe what they want to believe, but I think it's silly to go as far as acting like we know what someone else knows based on the assumption of what they have or haven't heard. This stuff is exactly why I'm being vague.

 

[BonesJones]

I highly doubt BJ does either. He might have "sauces", but that isn't definitive proof, unless he has emails, texts, or recordings proving otherwise, all he has is "insider hearsay" at best.

I hear a thing or two but I'm really not the one with sources on this. Yet I've heard enough to make me fully confident in certain things. As far as Cronins public statements, a lot of it is left to how people want to interpret it, so it's not universal proof, but proof enough for me.

 

[Whyachi]

I'm open to changing my mind. If anyone can provide proof he lied, I will move off my stance that we don't know if he lied. Again, I'm not saying he didn't lie, he's never lied, etc... I just don't have proof to call him a liar at this point.

Cronin signed 8 rookies into the current active roster in less then 2 years. (maybe 1 more if Miami coughs up Jaquez Jr.). It doesn't get more farfetched saying "we want to build a championship around Lillard", when the truth is the Blazers were rapidly pressing the "let's be Charlotte!!" try and rebuild with young guys button.

 

[blazerkor]

I also think it was realistic for Joe to expect Lillard, Goodwin and the Dame camp to keep their damn mouths shut. But Dame had to go on his world tour and discuss his demand and the separate conversation he would have if his demands were not met. He killed the value of the 3rd pick and any other asset Portland had/has. Just like he has killed his trade value with his ridiculous trade demand to Miami only. Joe did not lie, he just didn't't expect Dame to do him dirty. Dame orchestrated this. Goodwin let the cat out of the bag when he had the conversation with that writer, Arnold is it?

Dame did not handle this situation ideally before the draft. After the draft he and more so Goodwin have handled this like idiots. If they would have told Cronin behind the scenes that he only wanted to go to Miami but gave Cronin four other teams that he could leak to the public and if necessary move Dame to, Dame would probably already be traded to Miami. Dame has hurt Cronin's leverage but by disengaging Cronin is gaining it back, the league helped with that memo as well.

Edit: All of that said, even though I don't agree with Dame's tactics I can empathize with the guy. Cronin was here the entire time that Olshey was fucking up. Then Cronin says he's going to build a winner in his first off season and doesn't, then says he'll make an all in move and balance the roster at his second trade deadline and doesn't. So Dame thought he needed to put public pressure on him to follow through with the plan to use the pick to get him veteran help. When that didn't happen Dame was obviously not cool with this front office at all and Dame somewhat is cutting off his nose to spite his face now.

 

[Tince]

Cronin signed 8 rookies into the current active roster in less then 2 years. (maybe 1 more if Miami coughs up Jaquez Jr.). It doesn't get more farfetched saying "we want to build a championship around Lillard", when the truth is the Blazers were rapidly pressing the "let's be Charlotte!!" try and rebuild with young guys button.

I understand the narrative. I'm not pushing back at you or anyone who say Cronin stated a specific objective and failed at doing it. I believe Cronin even said he failed. What I'm asking you, or anyone else for, is for some proof he was lying when he made those statement. Not that his execution fell short. To this date, nobody has brought this to the table.

 

[blazerkor]

I understand the narrative. I'm not pushing back at you or anyone who say Cronin stated a specific objective and failed at doing it. I believe Cronin even said he failed. What I'm asking you, or anyone else for, is for some proof he was lying when he made those statement. Not that his execution fell short. To this date, nobody has brought this to the table.

I don't think Joe was lying but I understand if Dame feels a different way. Joe definitely kept saying he was committed to building an immediate winner around Dame and he continuously did the opposite. Joe was probably trying to do what he said he was but would not do it to the detriment of the team in the long run. I can see how that would not sit well at all with Dame.

 

[Whyachi]

The 3 pick pushes Portland into rebuilding. Dame doesn't want to do that at this stage in his career.

I don't think he necessarily disagrees that rebuilding is the right thing for Portland to do at this point. He just doesn't want to be a part of a rebuild.

I get crickets when I ask Blazer fans if they think Cronin would have traded a Thompson twin for an expensive vet to help Lillard win.

That #3 pick could have been 4'5'6' etc. Cronin was not trading that young rising star. The Blazers already had Dame's replacement lined up with Anfernee Simons. Hyping up Ant was on full display last season, not to trade Ant, but give him the keys knowing Lillard will probably ask out.

Drafting Scoot makes Simons a little more tradable, sure, but I'm not biting on drafting Scoot at #3 is the only unequivocal reason why Cronin chose to keep the pick.

 

[Tince]

I don't think Joe was lying but I understand if Dame feels a different way. Joe definitely kept saying he was committed to building an immediate winner around Dame and he continuously did the opposite. Joe was probably trying to do what he said he was but would not do it to the detriment of the team in the long run. I can see how that would not sit well at all with Dame.

I agree with you. I understand why Dame asked out; I'm disappointed Olshey and Cronin failed to give Dame a legit #2 teammate and a solid supporting cast.

I think Dame wanting to be provided a competitive roster was totally fair and more than realstic over a decade. Was it realistic given the state of the roster two years ago? Probably not.

 

[Tince]

I get crickets when I ask Blazer fans if they think Cronin would have traded a Thompson twin for an expensive vet to help Lillard win.

That #3 pick could have been 4'5'6' etc. Cronin was not trading that young rising star. The Blazers already had Dame's replacement lined up with Anfernee Simons. Hyping up Ant was on full display last season, not to trade Ant, but give him the keys knowing Lillard will probably ask out.

Drafting Scoot makes Simons a little more tradable, sure, but I'm not biting on drafting Scoot at #3 is the only unequivocal reason why Cronin chose to keep the pick.

Yes, I think Cronin would've traded the #5 pick if given an appropriate valued vet. Now that I've answered your question, what does it prove?

 

[Pinwheel1]

I don't think Joe was lying but I understand if Dame feels a different way. Joe definitely kept saying he was committed to building an immediate winner around Dame and he continuously did the opposite. Joe was probably trying to do what he said he was but would not do it to the detriment of the team in the long run. I can see how that would not sit well at all with Dame.

I doubt Joe lied to him and I doubt Dame is pissed at him. Dame simply saw that the Blazers were better off keeping the picks and thought it was best for both parties to go their separate ways.

 

[Whyachi]

I understand the narrative. I'm not pushing back at you or anyone who say Cronin stated a specific objective and failed at doing it. I believe Cronin even said he failed. What I'm asking you, or anyone else for, is for some proof he was lying when he made those statement. Not that his execution fell short. To this date, nobody has brought this to the table.

good players getting bumped all over the league. None of us were in the front office with Cronin while he was busy playing World of Warcraft, with the occasional call to teams that might offer draft picks for current Blazers.

 

[Whyachi]

Yes, I think Cronin would've traded the #5 pick if given an appropriate valued vet. Now that I've answered your question, what does it prove?

good job! I actually got a response. While we may disagree, I appreciate your insight.

 

[Tince]

good job! I actually got a response. While we may disagree, I appreciate your insight.

To be fair, I'm totally guessing on this one!

 

[Tince]

good players getting bumped all over the league. None of us were in the front office with Cronin while he was busy playing World of Warcraft, with the occasional call to teams that might offer draft picks for current Blazers.

I believe your response is in agreement with my original stance, that none of us know if Cronin lied.

 

[BIG Q]

Dame did not handle this situation ideally before the draft. After the draft he and more so Goodwin have handled this like idiots. If they would have told Cronin behind the scenes that he only wanted to go to Miami but gave Cronin four other teams that he could leak to the public and if necessary move Dame to, Dame would probably already be traded to Miami. Dame has hurt Cronin's leverage but by disengaging Cronin is gaining it back, the league helped with that memo as well.

Edit: All of that said, even though I don't agree with Dame's tactics I can empathize with the guy. Cronin was here the entire time that Olshey was fucking up. Then Cronin says he's going to build a winner in his first off season and doesn't, then says he'll make an all in move and balance the roster at his second trade deadline and doesn't. So Dame thought he needed to put public pressure on him to follow through with the plan to use the pick to get him veteran help. When that didn't happen Dame was obviously not cool with this front office at all and Dame somewhat is cutting off his nose to spite his face now.

Probably not the best of ideas. He has shit on his reputation. Can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Gotta make the best of it.