Lillard makes for an intriguing trade asset--discuss

[BigGameDamian]

Would you trade Lillard in a package trade for Paul George? Just asking.

 

[Natebishop3]

Just asking.

As opposed to........ what?

 

[Minstrel]

It is meaningful if I already conceded that he's a good player. I'm sure he's going to be great, but the point of contention was whether or not he's a lead guy. I guess if the East ever reverts back to being a dumpster fire, he'll have a shot then, no?

It's not meaningful, in my opinion, because you can't judge an individual by championships won. There are too many confounding variables, the biggest of which is the quality of the team around him. I don't think Kidd failed to win a title during his prime because he was an "ancillary" player--I think it was because he didn't have good enough teammates in Dallas.

I think "Can you plausibly build a championship team around this guy as your best player?" is a meaningful question and I think Kidd would qualify affirmatively. I think Pippen would, too (and I think the year he led the Bulls when Jordan retired gives good evidence for that). And I think Antetokounmpo is that kind of talent as well.

 

[Natebishop3]

It's not meaningful, in my opinion, because you can't judge an individual by championships won. There are too many confounding variables, the biggest of which is the quality of the team around him. I don't think Kidd failed to win a title during his prime because he was an "ancillary" player--I think it was because he didn't have good enough teammates in Dallas.

I think "Can you plausibly build a championship team around this guy as your best player?" is a meaningful question and I think Kidd would qualify affirmatively. I think Pippen would, too (and I think the year he led the Bulls when Jordan retired gives good evidence for that). And I think Antetokounmpo is that kind of talent as well.

Two teams tried to build around Kidd and ultimately gave up. Only when he was traded to New Jersey did he have success. The two teams that dumped him were in the West, and those teams weren't without talent. He had a significantly easier road to success in the east.

 

[Minstrel]

Two teams tried to build around Kidd and ultimately gave up. Only when he was traded to New Jersey did he have success. The two teams that dumped him were in the West, and those teams weren't without talent. He had a significantly easier road to success in the east.

They weren't "without talent" but hardly had great talent. Championships are hard to win, it doesn't take just a superstar and a little bit of talent--it takes at least one superstar (usually more) and a lot of really good talent around them.

I feel like auditing Jason Kidd's career is becoming a little too much the focus, though. Magic Johnson is another example of a player (in addition to others I've mentioned) who wasn't a dominant scorer (or a great shooter) and was the best player on title teams. Magic is particularly relevant to Antetokounmpo because Johnson, too, has few historical precedents. Though the same could be said for Kevin Garnett.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I feel like auditing Jason Kidd's career is becoming a little too much the focus, though. Magic Johnson is another example of a player (in addition to others I've mentioned) who wasn't a dominant scorer (or a great shooter) and was the best player on title teams. Magic is particularly relevant to Antetokounmpo because Johnson, too, has few historical precedents. Though the same could be said for Kevin Garnett.

I think Magic was a dominant scorer when he had to be. (i.e his rookie year in the NBA finals: Scoring a game-high 42 when Kareem was out) He had a wide range of shots including a very good hook shot. He seemed to add a new shot almost every summer including the 3 pt shot.

 

[Natebishop3]

They weren't "without talent" but hardly had great talent. Championships are hard to win, it doesn't take just a superstar and a little bit of talent--it takes at least one superstar (usually more) and a lot of really good talent around them.

I feel like auditing Jason Kidd's career is becoming a little too much the focus, though. Magic Johnson is another example of a player (in addition to others I've mentioned) who wasn't a dominant scorer (or a great shooter) and was the best player on title teams. Magic is particularly relevant to Antetokounmpo because Johnson, too, has few historical precedents. Though the same could be said for Kevin Garnett.

Magic had the ability to be a dominant scorer though. He just didn't need to be. Do you think Kidd had the capacity to be a dominant scorer? Do you think Giannis does?

I'm on my phone so I can't check the boxscore but didn't magic have a huge game when Kareem was out in the finals?

 

[Minstrel]

Magic had the ability to be a dominant scorer though. He just didn't need to be. Do you think Kidd had the capacity to be a dominant scorer? Do you think Giannis does?=

Are either of those players, or Garnett, capable of having a big scoring night if needed? Yes, I think so. I don't think Johnson could have been a consistently dominant scorer, nor do I think he could have led a team to championships that way, as that wasn't where his best talents lay. He was a championship-caliber player because of his play-making and all-around game, which included a decent ability to score.

 

[Minstrel]

He seemed to add a new shot almost every summer including the 3 pt shot.

He only had one season where he shot the three-pointer above 32%. Most of his career, he was below 30% on three-pointers, often around 20%.

 

[Pinwheel1]

He only had one season where he shot the three-pointer above 32%. Most of his career, he was below 30% on three-pointers, often around 20%.

His last 3 seasons he shot over 31%, but one of them was 38.4. He improved as the shot became more prevalent in the NBA. It was a different era.

 

[Minstrel]

His last 3 seasons he shot over 31%, but one of them was 38.4. He improved as the shot became more prevalent in the NBA. It was a different era.

Yes, that was the one season I referenced. 31-32% is still not good three-point shooting. And those were after 9 years in the NBA--he didn't keep improving. The season before his first 30% year was one of his worst, at 19.6%.

Anyway, whether or not Magic could have been a great shooter, could have been a dominant scorer--it's not really that important. I think Antetokounmpo can have a Hall of Fame career even as a weak three-point shooter. It's not necessarily ideal, but he does so many other things so well that he can survive as a superstar without it.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Yes, that was the one season I referenced. 31-32% is still not good three-point shooting. And those were after 9 years in the NBA--he didn't keep improving. The season before his first 30% year was one of his worst, at .196.

Yeah but his last all star game when he came back and stole the MVP from Clyde he shot it 90%....(I am joking)
Again it was a different era with different priorities. 33% from deep was considered a success. He sure seemed to hit 3's in the clutch. At least against us.

 

[SheedSoNasty]

As opposed to........ what?

He might pull the trigger and actually do it. I've had my theories as to who BGD actually is. I might be right.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

✔@KeithSmithNBA
Heard that the Lillard talks were quite some time ago before Parker was injured. Also heard it was never really close. Prob. nothing there.

 

[HailBlazers]

Should prob change thread title.

 

[Minstrel]

Should prob change thread title.

Done.

 

[BlazerWookee]

Having Lillard and CJ now...if one of them were traded for the Greek Freak tell me y'all wouldn't throw a dance party? If one were traded for Kawhi Leonard?

I'd be furious, either way.


At least until if and when I saw our record improve...

 

[Natebishop3]

Why are people so committed to the idea of dame/CJ long term? What's going to change in the next few years? Why will this suddenly work?

 

[BigGameDamian]

Why are people so committed to the idea of dame/CJ long term? What's going to change in the next few years? Why will this suddenly work?

It won't.

 

[H.C.]

Why are people so committed to the idea of dame/CJ long term? What's going to change in the next few years? Why will this suddenly work?

My thoughts are, I was never sold on the team in 15-16. Davis was the only signing I sort of liked. Everyone else... Well.
Aminu - was a scrub.
Harkless - had the P-word attached to his name.
Nards - needed to have his name wrote on the bench, and a personal towel.
Plumlee - undersized and doesn't excel at anything, too similar to Hickson.
Henderson - a shooting guard who doesn't fit next to Lillard.
Crabbe - that P-word again.
Vonleh - that P-word again.

If you go back to the win prediction thread for that year, I predicted mid 30's.
I ate crow and was happy to do so. But I still wasn't sold on the team.

This year I liked the Turner signing a lot, he started slow but picked it up
I think if Portland can get players who aren't career 3rd tier players, Lillard/CJ can work as a back court.
But right now... They have a lot of players playing, who should be backups of backups.

 

[Natebishop3]

But right now... They have a lot of players playing, who should be backups of backups.

I'm just not sure I see that changing anytime soon. Nurkic was a nice addition, but I feel like this team needs more than prospects. They need at least one more really good player, or they need to dump one of their guards. Between Dame, CJ, Crabbe, and Turner, there's four guys that could be starting.

 

[H.C.]

I'm just not sure I see that changing anytime soon. Nurkic was a nice addition, but I feel like this team needs more than prospects. They need at least one more really good player, or they need to dump one of their guards. Between Dame, CJ, Crabbe, and Turner, there's four guys that could be starting.

Possibly.
I'm not so down on the team as most though, as I guess I didn't have as far to fall?
I'm also looking at it this way.
Lillard out with injury, defense improved(or so I read on these forums)
Lillard returned from injury, defense improved again(or so I read on these forums)
Turner went down, team went to shit.(or so I read on these forums)

Adding Nurk, who if he's half as good as I read on these forums that's 4 quality starters.
Two of which are offensive studs and two of which are at the very least above average defenders.

But right now too many scrubs to be legit. I think I just quoted a song...
I'd love to lose Crabbe, I was only okay with matching thinking Portland would trade him.