Long game

[Mediocre Man]

Hell NO OP. Dumb.


Take the picks now. No brainer.

But why? What makes it dumb or a no brainer?

 

[Mediocre Man]

awkward question

Great question

 

[Mediocre Man]

Good question. Those trades reduced the team's overall talent - but in many respects the team played better after they left. What if RoCo/Nance/Powell/CJ had been traded for roughly equal talent - but guys who were willing to play hard and buy into what Billups was trying to do? What if those 4 guys had made an honest effort to buy into what Billups was trying to do? Obviously, it's all guesswork.

If they were willing to do those things they would have been better talent, not equal

 

[Fairly-Hard]

That’s funny, because my crystal ball says that Damian Lillard will win a championship with the Portland Trailblazers.

Does you crystal ball happen to know the year? I got some money that i want to put on that so i can retire when it happens. (Notice i said WHEN)

 

[TBpup]

It wasn't about whatever talent level these guys were at in their prime. It was about how rapidly and significantly they have declined...which isn't much

I'm seeing a bunch of people here say Dame has only a couple of seasons left at the level he's at. I'm saying they don't have any fucking reason for saying that other than their bias for wanting dame traded.

They haven't declined too much offensively. Defensively, CP3 isn't near what he used to be and LeBron is a shell of his former defensive self. Dame (like Curry) was never that good to start with, so much a decline would be terrible. Dame will be good offensively for years to come, but will inevitably decline just like everyone else....while his salary reaches astronomical proportions.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

So I started really thinking about this, and I’m now hoping we lose the Pels pick this year and get the Bucks pick in 2025.

In my heart of hearts, and yours too if you are honest with yourselves, I know we are not going to win a title in Dame’s prime. So getting the 14th pick this year and trading it for a vet that can “help” Dame make a title run is foolish because AS Cronin himself said, this isn’t a quick 1 year fix

So let’s trade Dame for players that match Ant, Hart, the 6th pick and whatever YOUNG stud in free agency we can get or trade for


I’ll sit here and take my lumps quietly

The questionable assumption that you're making is that there'll be a liveable world in 2025.

 

[Hoopguru]

that doesn't make the argument any more logical...it's not. Curry is still running; pounding his legs on the hardwood. Who runs more in a game, Dame or Curry?

Sure, I was just interpreting what I thought he was saying with respect to how he come off a screen catches and shoots. Dame runs 2.56 mpg & Curry 2.54 but that doesn't indicate how they run or with or w/o ball.

 

[wizenheimer]

Defensively, CP3 isn't near what he used to be

well, that could be because Paul worked so hard on defense in his first dozen years he simply wore down. Dame won't have that problem...

Dame has skills, and many of them are not 100% welded to athleticism. Skills don't fade as fast or as soon. A lot of aging players make up for a lost half step and less vertical with BBIQ, experience, and recognition. I think Dame will be one of those players...he's no dummy. I think the first thing that subtly starts to fade is stamina. Dame isn't there yet, IMO

Look (olshey-tm), I know it's inevitable that at some point over the next 4 years Dame will start to fade. There will be erosion. But for me, Dame's trade value doesn't matter at all. Not one little bit. If he doesn't want to be traded, Portland shouldn't trade him. Walton wanted to leave Portland; Drexler did too and has treated his Blazer career poorly. Dame has been all in on the Blazers, and the city, for a decade, and it's looking like that loyalty hasn't faded. That's unique. He may not be the player that Duncan and Dirk were, but his loyalty is more than equal to them, and his leadership is too.

 

[Hoopguru]

Dame say's he feels born again, that has to be a positive!

 

[e_blazer]

Dame say's he feels born again, that has to be a positive!

Careful, we have to keep religious discussions to the OT forum.

 

[Natebishop3]

I'm not comparing playing styles, I'm comparing the bodies of NBA players and wondering how it is that Dame's body will somehow age more rapidly than most other NBA players. The only reason I can think of is because it fits the narrative of those advocating for Dame to be traded

as for Stockton, you were the one than entered his name into the discussion as a comp for CP3. Then, right after that, you tried to make a case that Curry would somehow age better because he runs off screens a lot more than Dame. What is the difference between a screen and the pick in PnR? That's simply a screen by another name. And both Stockton and Dame have run off those PnR screens for a big part of their offense for a majority of their careers. Why do the screens Curry runs around without the ball lengthen his career and the screens Dame runs around with the ball shortens his career?

But playing styles can dictate how long a player stays in the NBA. The mind degrades much slower than the body. A player like CP3 or Stockton can stick around a lot longer because they're premier setup men and they can run an offense. Paul's body is nowhere near what it was 10 years ago. His knees are shot. But he can still run an offense better than anyone else in the NBA. Stockton played until he was 40 and he still averaged nearly 10 ppg and 8 assists. Dame is not a bad passer, but his game isn't built around passing. He's still a score-first point guard and that can't be said for either Paul or Stockton.

PNR is NOT the same as running off screens. It's MUCH harder on the body. How many times have we seen Dame get trapped by two players after trying to run the PNR and then slapped around? A player that constantly moves without the ball and lets his teammates screen for him so he can get open for a quick shot is way different than trying to shake two players and either drive to the hoop or shoot over the top. Because Dame runs the PNR so much, he goes to the hoop WAY more than Curry and he takes way more of a beating because of it.

Ray Allen retired at 38 (probably could have played longer)
Reggie Miller retired at 39

Who is the comp for Dame? Can he shift his game to be more of a catch and shoot scorer? His ability to beat traps and shoot over his defender will slowly degrade, and if teams know he doesn't have the first step to get to the hole, they will get right up on him. He needs his quickness to keep teams honest on defense.

 

[wizenheimer]

But playing styles can dictate how long a player stays in the NBA. The mind degrades much slower than the body. A player like CP3 or Stockton can stick around a lot longer because they're premier setup men and they can run an offense. Paul's body is nowhere near what it was 10 years ago. His knees are shot. But he can still run an offense better than anyone else in the NBA. Stockton played until he was 40 and he still averaged nearly 10 ppg and 8 assists. Dame is not a bad passer, but his game isn't built around passing. He's still a score-first point guard and that can't be said for either Paul or Stockton.

PNR is NOT the same as running off screens. It's MUCH harder on the body. How many times have we seen Dame get trapped by two players after trying to run the PNR and then slapped around? A player that constantly moves without the ball and lets his teammates screen for him so he can get open for a quick shot is way different than trying to shake two players and either drive to the hoop or shoot over the top. Because Dame runs the PNR so much, he goes to the hoop WAY more than Curry and he takes way more of a beating because of it.

Ray Allen retired at 38 (probably could have played longer)
Reggie Miller retired at 39

Who is the comp for Dame? Can he shift his game to be more of a catch and shoot scorer? His ability to beat traps and shoot over his defender will slowly degrade, and if teams know he doesn't have the first step to get to the hole, they will get right up on him. He needs his quickness to keep teams honest on defense.

you're arguing that Dame's body will eventually 'fail' to perform well on an NBA court

I'm arguing you don't know when that will be, but for the sake of advocating a Dame trade you're assuming it will be soon. You're saying that CP3 and Curry, two completely different players, will last longer than Dame. I'm saying you don't know that

but taking it further, if CP3 and Curry were more durable than Dame, than they would have been injured less over their careers....that's the sign of durability, no? But those guys have been injured dozens of times. Dame hasn't. Why is it that Dame's body can withstand 82 games much better than those 2 guys, but not 1000 games?

 

[Natebishop3]

or the sake of advocating a Dame trade you're assuming it will be soon

I said no such thing. 4 years is not "soon". I think he will most likely cease to be a top 10-15 player around 36. Maybe sooner, maybe later, but the question is whether we can build a contender around him before he starts to slip.

And again, I'm using Paul and Curry as examples of players who have a style that can take them later into their 30s. I don't think Dame has a style that will translate well when his athleticism starts to wane.

It's not about just about staying on a court. Dame clearly played through injuries that he should have addressed. If he had addressed his current injury sooner, maybe he wouldn't have needed such drastic treatment. It's about staying on the court and being effective at a high level. Dame very well might play until he's 40, but how much money will he be making and how good will he actually be in his late 30s?

 

[Natebishop3]

Also, just so we're clear:

you're arguing that Dame's body will eventually 'fail' to perform well on an NBA court

That's not an argument. That's a literal fact. All players will eventually fail to perform well on an NBA court.

I'm arguing you don't know when that will be, but for the sake of advocating a Dame trade you're assuming it will be soon. You're saying that CP3 and Curry, two completely different players, will last longer than Dame. I'm saying you don't know that

I never said soon. I said in the next 4-5 years. That's not "soon."

but taking it further, if CP3 and Curry were more durable than Dame, than they would have been injured less over their careers....that's the sign of durability, no? But those guys have been injured dozens of times. Dame hasn't. Why is it that Dame's body can withstand 82 games much better than those 2 guys, but not 1000 games?

I never once mentioned the word durability.

 

[Mediocre Man]

The questionable assumption that you're making is that there'll be a liveable world in 2025.

Best point in the thread

 

[Wizard Mentor]

That’s funny, because my crystal ball says that Damian Lillard will win a championship with the Portland Trailblazers.

Funny, I didn't know Dame was interested in going into coach when he's 50...

 

[wizenheimer]

I never said soon. I said in the next 4-5 years. That's not "soon."

let's just distill it down to that...Dame may be pretty damn good over the next 4 years (which takes him to CP3's current age by the way)

but you're convinced Portland can't build a contender around him in that time. If Portland can't build a contender around Dame over the next 4 years, how could they build one without him?

 

[Natebishop3]

let's just distill it down to that...Dame may be pretty damn good over the next 4 years (which takes him to CP3's current age by the way)

but you're convinced Portland can't build a contender around him in that time. If Portland can't build a contender around Dame over the next 4 years, how could they build one without him?

What would it take to build a contender?

Free agents?
Trades?
Hitting on the draft?

We have a horrible track record in free agency, and Cronin has shown to be completely inept at trades. So our only hope is the draft. And when I say contender, I mean an actual contender. A team that could compete for a ring. I'm not talking about getting back to the playoffs or being another also-ran. We need to be a legitimate threat to win the championship.

If Portland can't build a contender around Dame over the next 4 years, how could they build one without him?

Those are completely different timelines. Trying to build around Dame is going down a totally different road than if we traded Dame this summer and started building around Ant/Little/draft pick. One has a window. A finite length of time for which it can be accomplished, and that's how long Dame is still good enough to be the alpha dog. Whether that's 4-5 years or 9-10 years, it's still finite.

The other is based on how quickly we can obtain players that are good enough to win a ring. That could be 4-5 years if we get good draft picks, or it could take longer if our front office sucks and we don't hit on any of our picks. And just to be clear, I'm not saying that I would even necessarily keep Ant/Little. I think anyone should be on the table.

One path is building a contender around Dame.

One path is building a contender, period.

 

[Phatguysrule]

What would it take to build a contender?

Free agents?
Trades?
Hitting on the draft?

We have a horrible track record in free agency, and Cronin has shown to be completely inept at trades. So our only hope is the draft. And when I say contender, I mean an actual contender. A team that could compete for a ring. I'm not talking about getting back to the playoffs or being another also-ran. We need to be a legitimate threat to win the championship.



Those are completely different timelines. Trying to build around Dame is going down a totally different road than if we traded Dame this summer and started building around Ant/Little/draft pick. One has a window. A finite length of time for which it can be accomplished, and that's how long Dame is still good enough to be the alpha dog. Whether that's 4-5 years or 9-10 years, it's still finite.

The other is based on how quickly we can obtain players that are good enough to win a ring. That could be 4-5 years if we get good draft picks, or it could take longer if our front office sucks and we don't hit on any of our picks. And just to be clear, I'm not saying that I would even necessarily keep Ant/Little. I think anyone should be on the table.

One path is building a contender around Dame.

One path is building a contender, period.

We would have to be incredibly lucky to get a player as good as Dame in the next 4 or 5 years.

If we keep Dame, we already have that player. That's the toughest piece to get.

 

[Natebishop3]

If we keep Dame, we already have that player. That's the toughest piece to get.

We have that player... for a finite period of time. That's the whole point.

Dame will only be this good for so many years.

Dame will only be worth this much value for so many years.

 

[Phatguysrule]

We have that player... for a finite period of time. That's the whole point.

Dame will only be this good for so many years.

Dame will only be worth this much value for so many years.

What value does Dame have? He's coming off of surgery, off of his worst season, and his age isn't on his side.

Nobody is going to give up anything of comparable value for Dame right now.

 

[Natebishop3]

What value does Dame have? He's coming off of surgery, off of his worst season, and his age isn't on his side.

Nobody is going to give up anything of comparable value for Dame right now.

I doubt that. Dude was on fire in the playoffs last year. He got hurt. Everyone knows he got hurt. He's healthy now. I wouldn't be worried about his value.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

I just wonder at what point do players begin to be more of a problem due to the salary they command than positive effect they have on the floor for the team. Damian Lillard will be making an awful lot of money in the next 3-4 years?

 

[wizenheimer]

I just wonder at what point do players begin to be more of a problem due to the salary they command than positive effect they have on the floor for the team. Damian Lillard will be making an awful lot of money in the next 3-4 years?

you have to look at that list closely. 1st glance it looks like Dame is owed the 8th most money. But that list doesn't count the player options. At 17 & 18 PG13 and Kawhi make exactly the same amount as Dame. Jimmy Butler is owed 43M more than Dame. Rudy Gobert is owed 30M more

Dame's salary is high, but if what wer are talking about is a 7-10M differential thru the top 20-30 players it's not and egregious amount more. And every off-season, more players sign huge contracts, meaning that relative to the rest of the elite players, Dame is not grossly overpaid

 

[oldmangrouch]

let's just distill it down to that...Dame may be pretty damn good over the next 4 years (which takes him to CP3's current age by the way)

but you're convinced Portland can't build a contender around him in that time. If Portland can't build a contender around Dame over the next 4 years, how could they build one without him?

Trick question. With the current ownership/front office neither is possible. I have to admit, I have been blindly assuming we will be getting a new regime that is willing and able to put a contender on the court. If the current group is going to be around for the next 5 years or more, we might as well argue over whether unicorn horns have a clockwise or counter-clockwise spiral!

Maybe what we should be asking is when/if the team will be sold.

 

[oldmangrouch]

What value does Dame have? He's coming off of surgery, off of his worst season, and his age isn't on his side.

Nobody is going to give up anything of comparable value for Dame right now.

There is only one way to get comparable value for a player like Dame: get multiple 1st rd picks and have a front office competent enough to take advantage of them. You will never get equal short-term value in return - you have to find a team willing to give long-term value for current value.

 

[Phatguysrule]

There is only one way to get comparable value for a player like Dame: get multiple 1st rd picks and have a front office competent enough to take advantage of them. You will never get equal short-term value in return - you have to find a team willing to give long-term value for current value.

We're not going to get a proven front office for at least another year or two (after the team sells, or Cronin proves many people wrong). So trading Dame right now has a very low probability of success.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

We would have to be incredibly lucky to get a player as good as Dame in the next 4 or 5 years.

...and pay that player FIFTY MILLION A YEAR

 

[Phatguysrule]

Trick question. With the current ownership/front office neither is possible. I have to admit, I have been blindly assuming we will be getting a new regime that is willing and able to put a contender on the court. If the current group is going to be around for the next 5 years or more, we might as well argue over whether unicorn horns have a clockwise or counter-clockwise spiral!

Maybe what we should be asking is when/if the team will be sold.

As I understand it, the team will be sold within the next 2 years. But there is no rush to sell.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Yikes