Lowe Podcast: Portland talking to Orl/Sac?

[julius]

From stats alone, Jahlil doesn't really stand out much. I know he's young, but his defense rating seems questionable. So obviously he'd fit right in. ;P

 

[H.C.]

I just don't understand why Philly would trade a player like Noel when you can play him alongside Embiid so easily.
It makes zero logic what that organization is doing with their three/four bigs.
Unless they know something about his health that isn't public. It makes zero logic.

 

[Trackjack]

Rumor or someone with insight?

It sport writer believe what blazers and Phil what might happen between the two teams.

 

[julius]

It sport writer believe what blazers and Phil what might happen between the two teams.

I don't know if Okafur fixes the Blazers defensive issues. Just watched a few videos on him, and his defense seems to be from the HCP school of defense. Ole!

 

[TBpup]

Get that Sugar Honey Ice Tea out of here.....love it!

 

[Trackjack]

I don't know if Okafur fixes the Blazers defensive issues. Just watched a few videos on him, and his defense seems to be from the HCP school of defense. Ole!

I rather have Noel for defense but Okafor can be big upgrade on offense. But Noel rim proctor and Rebounding right now what we really need but I guess we will wait and see.

 

[TBpup]

I rather have Noel for defense but Okafor can be big upgrade on offense. But Noel rim proctor and Rebounding right now what we really need but I guess we will wait and see.

Noel we can get without CJ. Okafor I think would cost CJ.

 

[Scalma]

Noel we can get without CJ. Okafor I think would cost CJ.

No it wouldn't. Okafor is meh

 

[Scalma]

I think philly will end up eventually trading both Noel and Okafor.

 

[Denny Crane]

All surgery is elective unless you're taken to the operating room in an emergency.

Edit:

Reference

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_surgery

Elective surgery or elective procedure (from the Latin eligere, meaning to choose[1]) is surgery that is scheduled in advance because it does not involve a medical emergency.

 

[Minstrel]

I'd rather have Noel straight up over Okafor.

Noel's upside is DeAndre Jordan. Okafor's upside is Enes Kanter. And Noel already has playable skills, his defense and rebounding. Okafor currently isn't worth putting on the court except to develop--he doesn't rebound particularly well, he can't pass and he's a startlingly inefficient scorer for someone who's calling card is refined inside scoring. Not even worth going into the defensive side of things.

 

[Boob-No-More]

All surgery is elective unless you're taken to the operating room in an emergency.

Edit:

Reference

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_surgery

Elective surgery or elective procedure (from the Latin eligere, meaning to choose[1]) is surgery that is scheduled in advance because it does not involve a medical emergency.

Yeah, that's pretty general and has nothing to do with Noel's specific procedure.

"The team is calling the surgery a "minor elective arthroscopic procedure." It was performed in New York by Dr. Riley J. Williams at the Hospital for Special Surgery."

So, a minor scoping of an inflamed plica. This wasn't a torn ACL, a Jones fracture, a shattered patella or a ruptured Achilles.

More on Plica Syndrome:

"The majority of people with plica syndrome will get better without surgery. The primary goal when treating the plica is to reduce the inflammation. This may require limiting activities like running, biking, or using a stair-climbing machine.

SURGERY
If all nonsurgical attempts to reduce your symptoms fail, surgery may be suggested. Usually, an arthroscope (mentioned earlier) is used to remove the plica. The small TV camera is inserted into the knee joint through one-quarter inch incisions. Once the plica is located with the arthroscope, small instruments are inserted through another one-quarter inch incision to cut away the plica tissue and remove the structure. The area where the plica is removed heals back with scar tissue. There are no known problems associated with not having a plica, so you won't miss it."

So, you can either stay off the knee and limit physical activity until it heals, or you can have the surgery, remove it and not have to worry about future flare ups.

The problem is fixed, the plica removed, he has successfully completed rehab and since he no longer has a plica, he won't have to worry about it becoming inflamed in the future.

BNM

 

[julius]

ok, I'm reading this thread (again) while listening to Noel being sung by Ceiling Deon.

It's a sign!

 

[Scalma]

I think we will see Olshey make multiple trades. He might wait until the offseason but I doubt he waits that long to get a center, especially since the market is looking favorable for one right now.

I also don't buy this theory that Olshey would never trade CJ because "that's his guy." I don't even get where he's gotten this loyal to a fault tag either. Is it because he kept his assets? Back when he was with the clippers he traded Aminu a year after taking him in the lottery. Granted it was for Chris Paul, but still, I wouldn't worry about him being scared to trade anyone if that's what it took to improve the team. Lillard is the only guy that's safe imo.

Btw that could be another reason for the teams play. The players know it's an unbalanced roster and that most of them could easily be on the block. You add heightened expectations (team expected to make a jump, players trying to justify contracts they were given) and I can't help but wonder what that does to a players psyche, especially a younger player who hasnt been through those situations.

 

[Blazers Roy]

If we get Noel, maybe we need to get Elfrid Payton as well.

I remember he's a bad shooter, but a great defender on the other end. CJ can come off the bench like James Har_en\Ginobili.

Noel
Aminu gas
Hark
Payton
Lilly

sex-th man: CJ

So that's a pretty untalented starting 5, but way more balanced defensively than what we have now (unless Payton turned into a shitty defender without me knowing).

 

[Minstrel]

If we get Noel, maybe we need to get Elfrid Payton as well.

I remember he's a bad shooter, but a great defender on the other end. CJ can come off the bench like James Har_en\Ginobili.

Noel
Aminu gas
Hark
Payton
Lilly

sex-th man: CJ

So that's a pretty untalented starting 5, but way more balanced defensively than what we have now (unless Payton turned into a shitty defender without me knowing).

So, right now, as I mentioned in another thread, the team is 7th in the NBA in offense and 30th in defense.

That new starting lineup would be a good way to get the team up to 20th in the NBA in defense...and 20th in the NBA in offense. I guess that's balanced.

More seriously, though, with Aminu looking like last year's three-point shooting display was just a career year, the spacing of that lineup would be awful. Lillard would face constant double-teams and passing out of them wouldn't create any opportunities as long as a defender stuck close to Harkless. The offense would grind to a halt.

 

[Blazers Roy]

So, right now, as I mentioned in another thread, the team is 7th in the NBA in offense and 30th in defense.

That new starting lineup would be a good way to get the team up to 20th in the NBA in defense...and 20th in the NBA in offense. I guess that's balanced.

More seriously, though, with Aminu looking like last year's three-point shooting display was just a career year, the spacing of that lineup would be awful. Lillard would face constant double-teams and passing out of them wouldn't create any opportunities as long as a defender stuck close to Harkless. The offense would grind to a halt.

You can say that about Memphis as well, but their lack of spacing usually hits them hard in the deep stages of the playoffs while they do pretty good during the season.

Iverson reached the finals with a similar concept (Payton as Eric Snow here).

I just don't think we have cheaper solutions than this, you can't start CJ and Dame and you can't bring a guy who is a great 2 way player at SG so you have to settle somewhere.

 

[Minstrel]

You can say that about Memphis as well, but their lack of spacing usually hits them hard in the deep stages of the playoffs while they do pretty good during the season.

That's because Memphis has generally had one of the very best defensive teams in basketball. That lineup you put together wouldn't be arguably #1. It would rise to serviceable, not amazing, at the cost of one of the better offenses in basketball.

Iverson reached the finals with a similar concept (Payton as Eric Snow here).

That was a different age, where slow and grindy offenses with one-on-one attacks were the norm. It was also in one of the weakest conferences in NBA history.

I just don't think we have cheaper solutions than this, you can't start CJ and Dame and you can't bring a guy who is a great 2 way player at SG so you have to settle somewhere.

I think what Portland has right now is better than watering down the one thing they're good at to become mediocre at defense. But my preferred solution has always been to trade McCollum for similar value in a more complementary player. Turning McCollum into a reserve is a waste, in my opinion.

 

[Blazers Roy]

That's because Memphis has generally had one of the very best defensive teams in basketball. That lineup you put together wouldn't be arguably #1. It would rise to serviceable, not amazing, at the cost of one of the better offenses in basketball.

Back when we had Randolph, What if someone told you he'll become part of that defense?
What about Tony Allen? he had some flashes of energy in Boston but that was it.

I think we can't really know how that starting 5 would preform without actually seeing it.

That was a different age, where slow and grindy offenses with one-on-one attacks were the norm. It was also in one of the weakest conferences in NBA history.

Agreed, but that team was built on the principle of balance around A.I and that's what we need to strive for as long as we have Lillard.
Right now we don't wanna break the duo of CJ and Dame, so what are the alternatives? Are we getting Kawai and Draymond Green to compensate for our lack of backcourt D?

You have to think about that 5 as a healthy ground for a future talented PF-C to flourish in. Right now it's a mess, you can't have any scorer/non mobile big man because Dame and CJ need help all the time.

I think what Portland has right now is better than watering down the one thing they're good at to become mediocre at defense. But my preferred solution has always been to trade McCollum for similar value in a more complementary player. Turning McCollum into a reserve is a waste, in my opinion.

Ginobili was better than CJ and the Spurs won more with him on the bench, our bench is a weak point now anyway so i think it makes more sense.

I think that my idea seems weird to you because right now we're in panic at every 1st half, trying to manage the flood of opponent points and then it looks like we have to manufacture 130 points and if we don't then we lose.

Can't we have some peaceful 1st quarters with a score of 24-22 instead?

 

[Minstrel]

Right now we don't wanna break the duo of CJ and Dame, so what are the alternatives?

We don't? I do, as I said in my post.

I don't think you can win with two such limited defensive players in the same backcourt and while you can stagger minutes (which is essentially what happened with Ginobili--not technically a starter but played close to starter minutes), the best option to me is to try and trade McCollum somewhere where he isn't on a team with another defensively-challenged lead guard, and get back a similarly talented player (at any position other than point guard) that fits better.

 

[Sinobas]

I don't know if Okafur fixes the Blazers defensive issues. Just watched a few videos on him, and his defense seems to be from the HCP school of defense. Ole!

I remember a game we plays vs Philly where he couldn't miss. He was just dominating in the post.

 

[Scalma]

I remember a game we plays vs Philly where he couldn't miss. He was just dominating in the post.

Who was guarding him, Lillard?

 

[Boob-No-More]

Ginobili was better than CJ

Not at the same age. At 25, Manu averaged 13.2 ppg, shot .345 from 3FG and had a PER = 14.5.

At 25, C.J., is averaging 22.0 ppg shooting .435 3FG% with a PER = 19.6.

C.J. is averaging over 20 ppg for the second straight season. Manu has never averaged 20 ppg.

I'm not saying C.J.'s peak will be better than Manu's, only time will tell, but it's already close. Manu did not peak until his early 30s. C.J. is only 25 and is already close to Manu's peak.

and the Spurs won more with him on the bench

Did they? The three seasons Manu started over half the Spurs games, they won 59 games, 61 games and 63 games. The only time they've ever won more than 63 games was last season.

I think people forget that Manu did not become a full time 6th man until he was 30. The only two times he made the all star team he was a full time starter.

Yes, he's been a great sixth man for many years, but it would be highly unusual for a guy like C.J., averaging over 20 ppg in his mid-20s to be coming off the bench. It seems like most 6th Man of the Year winners are either young guys, early in their careers (like Harden with OKC and Ben Gordon in CHI) who become starters in the prime years, or older guys (Crawford, Ginobili, Jason Terry, etc.) who used to star, but who were in their 30s, by the time they started winning 6th Man of the Year awards.

And, it's not like we have a defensive stud like Bruce Bowen, or one of the greatest 3-point shooters ever (J.J. Redick) that we can plug into C.J.'s spot in the starting line up.

We have Allen Fucking Crabbe, and in that proposed line up, we'd have Elfrid Fucking Payton. Payton is a PG who can't shoot. His defense is overrated by posters here. It's barely average, but it looks good compared to his pathetic offense.

Payton can't even beat out D.J. Augustn for a starting job in OR, but you think he can beat out C.J. McCollum for a starting job in POR? In that proposed line up, he'd have to guard the other team's SGs. He's the same height as C.J. and 15 lb. lighter. He'd get abused by bigger, stronger SGs, just like C.J. does. The difference is C.J. more than makes up for it on the other end. Payton does not.

According to 82 games.com. Payton gives up 21.8 pts/48 when playing PG and 18.3 pts/48 when playing SG. C.J. gives up 21.3 pts/48 when playing PG and 20.5 pts/48 when paying SG. So, small advantage to Payton, but it's a very small advantage.

The problem is on the other end where Payton gets outscored by his opponent regardless of position. At PG, he scores 19.0 pts/48 (net -2.8 pts/48) and just 11.8 pts/48 at SG (net - 6.5 pts/48).

C.J., on the other hand, outscores his opponent regardless of position. He scores 27.4 pts/48 at PG (net +6.2 pts/48) and 32.8 pts/48 at SG (net +12.3 pts/48).

So, no matter what position Payton plays and who he guards, he's a net negative. Again the exact opposite is true of C.J., regardless of position, he's a net positive contributor.

Yeah, I get that we need help on defense, and if we had a Bruce Bowen waiting in the wings, who shot .400 from 3FG while being 1st team All Defense, yeah I'd say go for it, but Elfrid Payton is not Bruce Bowen. He's a skinny PG who is a slightly better than average defender (against other PGs) who can't hit a 3FG to save his life.

BNM

 

[Scalma]

Yeah I don't see the fit in Portland for Payton. If we just wanted a guy to defend point guards that has questionable skills everywhere else we might as well give quarterman some run instead of wasting assets on someone like Payton.

 

[Minstrel]

If you're interested in Payton, you might as well just call up Minnesota and make an offer on Rubio. He's not a big part of their plans (because his lack of shooting makes him a bad fit for this era and Minnesota in particular with their general lack of shooting) but he's a far better defender and passer than Payton.

He's not someone who'd fit too well in Portland, either, unless they got another shooter for the front court. If Portland acquired Ibaka and Rubio, for example, and dealt McCollum for a very good center, that could be interesting. Rubio would be an awkward fit anywhere, but you can better absorb his lack of a shot with Lillard, Harkless and Ibaka providing spacing.

And Rubio, Harkless and Ibaka would be the basis of a potentially good defense.

I'm not advocating it, but to me that at least is the start of a coherent plan, whereas Payton doesn't move the needle in the right direction anywhere.

 

[Scalma]

So Orlando is evidently interested in Gay.

How about this

To Orlando:
Gay

To Portland:
Vucevic
McLemore

To Sacramento:
Crabbe

Just as a base. We'd probably have to add clevelands pick and I'm guessing Sacramento would want more than just Crabbe but this trade works so far financially.

 

[Boob-No-More]

If you're interested in Payton, you might as well just call up Minnesota and make an offer on Rubio. He's not a big part of their plans (because his lack of shooting makes him a bad fit for this era and Minnesota in particular with their general lack of shooting) but he's a far better defender and passer than Payton.

Well said. In the Vucevic/Payton trade thread, I called Payton, best case, a poor man's Rubio. Too bad he's a worse shooter than even Rubio and not as good at passing, running an offense and defending other PGs. Payton is still young and can get better, but right now, I see his peak as either a decent back-up PG on a good team or a shitty starting PG on a bad team.

The guy lost his starting job in ORL to D.J. Augustin. When you're not good enough to start in ORL, and the alternative is D.J. Augustin, why the hell would I want you starting for my team?

BNM

 

[Blazers Roy]

Not at the same age. At 25, Manu averaged 13.2 ppg, shot .345 from 3FG and had a PER = 14.5.

At 25, C.J., is averaging 22.0 ppg shooting .435 3FG% with a PER = 19.6.

C.J. is averaging over 20 ppg for the second straight season. Manu has never averaged 20 ppg.

I'm not saying C.J.'s peak will be better than Manu's, only time will tell, but it's already close. Manu did not peak until his early 30s. C.J. is only 25 and is already close to Manu's peak.

Manu played for a disciplined,defensive,championship caliber team. In his first years he was restricted to stand in the corner and shoot threes.
You can't really judge everything and everyone based on numbers.

And, it's not like we have a defensive stud like Bruce Bowen, or one of the greatest 3-point shooters ever (J.J. Redick) that we can plug into C.J.'s spot in the starting line up.

We have Allen Fucking Crabbe, and in that proposed line up, we'd have Elfrid Fucking Payton. Payton is a PG who can't shoot. His defense is overrated by posters here. It's barely average, but it looks good compared to his pathetic offense.

Payton can't even beat out D.J. Augustn for a starting job in OR, but you think he can beat out C.J. McCollum for a starting job in POR? In that proposed line up, he'd have to guard the other team's SGs. He's the same height as C.J. and 15 lb. lighter. He'd get abused by bigger, stronger SGs, just like C.J. does. The difference is C.J. more than makes up for it on the other end. Payton does not.

According to 82 games.com. Payton gives up 21.8 pts/48 when playing PG and 18.3 pts/48 when playing SG. C.J. gives up 21.3 pts/48 when playing PG and 20.5 pts/48 when paying SG. So, small advantage to Payton, but it's a very small advantage.

The problem is on the other end where Payton gets outscored by his opponent regardless of position. At PG, he scores 19.0 pts/48 (net -2.8 pts/48) and just 11.8 pts/48 at SG (net - 6.5 pts/48).

C.J., on the other hand, outscores his opponent regardless of position. He scores 27.4 pts/48 at PG (net +6.2 pts/48) and 32.8 pts/48 at SG (net +12.3 pts/48).

So, no matter what position Payton plays and who he guards, he's a net negative. Again the exact opposite is true of C.J., regardless of position, he's a net positive contributor.

Yeah, I get that we need help on defense, and if we had a Bruce Bowen waiting in the wings, who shot .400 from 3FG while being 1st team All Defense, yeah I'd say go for it, but Elfrid Payton is not Bruce Bowen. He's a skinny PG who is a slightly better than average defender (against other PGs) who can't hit a 3FG to save his life.

BNM

According to 82games.com, in his last year in Boston Tony Allen allowed 20.6 points as SG and 21.2 points as PG (per 48 minutes ofc).

Anyway, all my knowledge on Payton is based on watching him play us in the last 2 years and ESPN talk so i won't pretend i know everything about him.

It doesn't have to be Elfrid Payton, it can be any other player who fits the "Tony Allen" mold. A player who can shoot threes as well would be great, but no one is giving up those kind of players now.

How about Marcus (not) Smart?

 

[Boob-No-More]

Manu played for a disciplined,defensive,championship caliber team. In his first years he was restricted to stand in the corner and shoot threes.
You can't really judge everything and everyone based on numbers.

Actually, there was an error in my previous post. Manu did not average 13.2 ppg at 25, he only averaged 7.6 ppg. The 13.2 was his per-36 number.

I think the biggest difference is Manu was 25 as an NBA rookie. C.J. is 25 in his fourth NBA season.

Given the fact that 62.7% of Manu's total field goal attempts were 2-pointers, including 34.3% from 0-3 feet that season, I'd say he was doing more than just standing in the corner shooting 3-pointers.

BNM

 

[Scalma]

Lol Manu and disciplined in the same sentence.