Magic on VC: “His Knees are Gone”

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>In the closing minute of the TNT pregame show, Magic Johnson gave this assessment of the Nets’ problems this season: “Vince Carter…his knees are gone”, adding that Carter has gone from “superstar to regular player”. Charles Barkley added, “I couldn’t agree more.” At halftime, Johnson continued, saying Carter cannot play at “the superstar level anymore”. Barkley suggested Carter is in “a quick, rapid decline”.</div>
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Just in case someone missed it.
 
I didn't even really realize how fast it came on. Last year I didn't really notice it but this year it's so in our faces every single game.
 
I think its less his knees and more his bum ankle...he probably needed to sit for a few weeks earlier this year but couldn't as we sucked without him. I think we are seeing now though that Vince at 80% all season is worse than missing Vince for 15 games early this season. Also RJ has looked slowed by injury as well...it hurts offensively but what it really kills is our defense.

Defensively both RJ and Vince have been getting burned as players have been able to blow by them on a drive with relative ease our stop and pop from the perimeter for uncontested jumpers as both RJ and Vince are slow on recovery time.
 
PFFT
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jloc857 @ Jan 25 2008, 02:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think its less his knees and more his bum ankle...he probably needed to sit for a few weeks earlier this year but couldn't as we sucked without him. I think we are seeing now though that Vince at 80% all season is worse than missing Vince for 15 games early this season. Also RJ has looked slowed by injury as well...it hurts offensively but what it really kills is our defense.

Defensively both RJ and Vince have been getting burned as players have been able to blow by them on a drive with relative ease our stop and pop from the perimeter for uncontested jumpers as both RJ and Vince are slow on recovery time.</div>

nah... its his knees... he cant jump no more

its either he has to adapt and find another game (just like kobe, tmac, mj) or face being a regular player

i really predicted this out of VC since he always used his jumping ability to score a lot of points

next up is nate robinson
 
and we have him for 5 more years!!! YES!!!!
 
I'm not going to judge until I see Vince after some rest after the allstar break. I think its his ankles, not his knees. Even when he loses most of his leaping ability Vince will always have that quick first step and we saw that in full effect the past two games. In my opinion he can still be a premier scorer without his hops. his outside shot and quick drives are good enough to get it done. His lack of aggression is what's accounting for this bad season.
 
if it's knee tendinitis...hopefully not the chronic type...he should have better games coming off long breaks and should have started the season strong then tapered off...

so i'm inclined to think its his ankles...much like what rj suffered through after tweaking both of his...lost his explosiveness...
 
You know it was a bad sign when even Michael Jordan didn't want him on the Bobcats and he just signs random UNC players for fun
 
We better make the best out of the situation because he is a Net and here to stay.

Carter is still a good shooter and if he can adjust to being a catch and shoot guy with good passing skills instead of the focus of the offense then I think he could be a contributing player. Oh and its $85 mill not 60.
 
yea but the last 18 mill is a team option that the Nets or whoever will clearly opt out of.

Anyway, I'm pretty amazed that Vince is playing while his knees are gone. He has set a precedent for handicapped people and the nba.

This is what Vince is playing on: WARNING: It's not nice looking
Vince's knee
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GM3 @ Jan 25 2008, 11:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>We better make the best out of the situation because he is a Net and here to stay.

Carter is still a good shooter and if he can adjust to being a catch and shoot guy with good passing skills instead of the focus of the offense then I think he could be a contributing player. Oh and its $85 mill not 60.</div>

That's what he should have been all along since he got here.
 
Good luck with those ticket sales, boys. I can see the ads now:

Come on out and see the Nets with superstar Vince Carter!

"He's done." - Magic Johnson
"I couldn’t agree more." - Charles Barkley

::insert pictures/videos of a dunk contest from nearly a decade ago::

Season tickets still available... get yours today!
 
Anyone can see that Carter's explosiveness (particularly in the vertical direction) is substantially diminished this year. As for whether that's because of his knees, his still-ailing ankle (remember RJ last year?), or something else, that's pure speculation. Magic Johnson is hardly a guy who has any personal experience with the kind of athletic ability Carter was blessed with, so he's undoubtedly purveying naked assumptions based on what guys like James Worthy felt when their athleticism started to decline. And, of course, he was making the case as sensationally as possible to entertain a national TV audience.

Even if Johnson is correct, however, and Carter's loss of leaping ability is due to some chronic degeneration in the knees, he's selling Vince WAY too short to say he's "just another player". Show me "just another player" who can finish the kinds of drives he did last night (or in Sacramento) or make the kinds of drive and dish plays he did (if Boki and Boone could finish AT ALL with a defender in the same zip code, Vince would have had another 4 assists easily). If "just another player" can get you 29/6/4 on only 20 shots (with several Sportcenter hilights thrown in for icing), then I'll take 12 of those in a heartbeat.

Carter's overwhelming athleticism has always blinded certain people to how versatile and fundamentally sound he is offensively. He may not go over people anymore, but the last two games alone show that, when he maintains an aggressive mindset (which farouq710 nailed as the REAL key), he can still go around and under people. Yes, he always dazzled me with what he could do in the air. But as someone who's watched every televised game he's ever played in the NBA, I've always been equally amazed at the creativity, variety of releases, and touch he exhibits in finishing other kinds of plays around the basket. Put that together with the fact that his midrange jumper is probably better this year than at any other time in his career (save early in the season when he was suffering from the injury to his shooting hand), and you are still talking about a guy who, with proper emphasis in the schemes, is a top 10-15 scorer in this league and one who also brings far better playmaking skills than most others in that category. He is also still one of the best rebounding guards in the league.

What I sense has been happening with Carter this year, and what partly accounts for the ups and downs in his style of play, is that he is still adjusting mentally to the new limitations of his body. He is clearly making a better effort than ever before not to "force" his offense and has curbed his shot selection considerably, to the detriment of the team, in some cases. (Of course some in these parts claimed to have wanted only that from him for several years.) But the reality is that he still needs to be the number one offensive option for this team to look competent offensively, and he NEEDS to shoot more than he has been. I would love to see more quick hitting, catch and shoot curls run for him, because I think the midrange part of his game is the part that most needs to be expanded and exploited at this point in his career.

Of course none of this is going to make any difference in this team's success unless they acquire at least one legit shooter and learn how to defend again as a team.
 
How is this even a newsflash, because capt. Obvious Magic says so? Everyone's been saying it on here all year. All you need to do is look at how many dunks he has. I don't think he's had one true highlight dunk all year. Of course the legs are gone, they disappeared last season if anyone was watching - he just shot the jumper extremely well last year. Against the Cavs he looked like an old man and pretty much cost them the series. He's still crafty and can find ways to score, but it's a struggle, a struggle that will kill this team for years to come.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 25 2008, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Of course the legs are gone, they disappeared last season if anyone was watching - he just shot the jumper extremely well last year.</div>

No way. You obviously missed incredible dunks against the likes of Atlanta, Chicago, and Toronto. The reverse alley oop in game 3 of the Raptors series was one for the ages (and is part of YES' Nets promotionals). His head wal literally in the net at one point, just a few inches below rim.

That's what's remarkable about this decline: the suddenness of it.
 
The legs are gone.

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-MaxaMillion711 (s2's own...I believe?)

You might say that he's more of a complete player now, but he can't do the things he did in Toronto. Normally on a fastbreak he would throw it down and now he just settles. (hence why he passed on the ball to Wright during a fastbreak yesterday.)
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Jan 25 2008, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 25 2008, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Of course the legs are gone, they disappeared last season if anyone was watching - he just shot the jumper extremely well last year.</div>

No way. You obviously missed incredible dunks against the likes of Atlanta, Chicago, and Toronto. The reverse alley oop in game 3 of the Raptors series was one for the ages (and is part of YES' Nets promotionals). His head wal literally in the net at one point, just a few inches below rim.

That's what's remarkable about this decline: the suddenness of it.
</div>

A couple of nice dunks, big deal, he used to have a highlight dunk every other game. The dunks over Zo were his last truly amazing dunks. The legs started going last year. He had 1 dunk in the 6 game series vs. the Cavs. I remember, because I kept saying, I can't believe Vince has 1 dunk this whole freakin' series.
 
The $60 million question is whether his (lack of) performance is the result of some permanent physical deterioration, or whether he is suffering from an injury that will improve through extended rest. As someone pointed out, RJ had no explosion last year before he underwent surgery and had the chance to rest this past summer. Magic is speculating that it is the former, but only Vince and his family and teammates know the truth. Assuming he isn't traded, we'll know the answer next November 20, after the nets have played roughly 10% of their schedule.
 
And it's not all about getting highlights all season long, but the intensity and fire that VC would bring each and every game. The Nets are missing that kind of energy.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (footswalker @ Jan 25 2008, 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>A couple of nice dunks, big deal, he used to have a highlight dunk every other game. The dunks over Zo were his last truly amazing dunks. The legs started going last year. He had 1 dunk in the 6 game series vs. the Cavs. I remember, because I kept saying, I can't believe Vince has 1 dunk this whole freakin' series.</div>

It was more than a "couple", and you seem to overlook the obvious: if his legs were "gone" last year, he would have had ZERO. What we're talking about here is not some transient disability that comes and goes with the wind but a permanent impairment of something -- tendons, ligaments, composition of muscle fibre (fast vs. slow twitch), etc. If it's gone, it's gone and doesn't miraculously appear on occasion. And he certainly wouldn't be compiling one of the best dunks of his career against Toronto and unable to get off the floor against Cleveland (as you imply) with only days in between unless something happened in that interim. There were reports out later that summer that indicated Vince was suffering from knee tendenitis during the Cleveland series, which may indicate that was the real start of this decline and accounts for why he was so passive and ineffectual in that series.

Many people thought he'd suffered something like this toward the end of his tenure in Toronto because dunks became extremely rare. But the falloff was 90% due to just a lack of motivation and aggressiveness, which his many hilight reel dunks in New Jersey and All Star games since demonstrate. I think he was never quite as athletically superb as he was his first 3 seasons in the league (and he did have the first of a couple of knee surgeries at the end of that time frame), but he wasn't as good a basketball player then as he was for his first 18 months+ in New Jersey.

Bottom line is he still has plenty enough athleticism to be a very, very effective scorer when his engine is actually revving. As always, that's the variable that determines how well he's playing.
 
I think Richard Jefferson's injury is bothering him more than people are noticing (probably because the spotlight's on Vince). Our wing players are all injury-prone players who attempt to play with injuries and end up simply hurting their team defensively. And it sucks big ones, and really pisses me off when one of em gets beat because they can't move fast enough to stay with their man.
 
I agree with Magic's assessment. Carter is still a scorer and can hit some tough shots but you can see that he can't get by defenders as easily anymore and once he's by the rim, it's a layup and not a dunk. Some layups go in, others roll out. The part i'm worried about is 3 or 4 years from now. I can see him being what Michael Finley is now. Decent scorer but obviously not a 20 pt per game player he used to be. is that the type of player we want to be paying 15+mil for? I think Kidd can be effective until he's 40 but I would trade Carter for something now while he maybe has some value.
 
Even if Vince's knees are gone (I don't agree), with a proper off-season program he could get a significant amount of explosiveness.

The only NBA player to play after having microfracture surgery on both knees now has the same explosiveness as he did in 2002.
 
true, but that guy has a lot more heart than Carter.
 
Im sick of all these people bashing dude even when he has a good game.
I hope he gets traded (like everyone around here wants), to a team like the CAVS imagine Vince and Lebron on a team. WOW
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jan 25 2008, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Even if Vince's knees are gone (I don't agree), with a proper off-season program he could get a significant amount of explosiveness.

The only NBA player to play after having microfracture surgery on both knees now has the same explosiveness as he did in 2002.</div>

Even assuming you weren't implying that microfracture surgery is appropriate for Vince, this is as speculative as Magic Johnson's assessment. If it is something in the knees, we have no idea what it is or that it would in the least be comparable to the experiences of someone deemed a candidate for or recovering from microfracture surgery.
 

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