Matthews vs. Webster

[PtldPlatypus]

I think a more interesting question is one Wheels just alluded to on the radio. Utah essentially just replaced the guy we're paying $6.5M/year with a guy they're going to pay $3M/year. Is Wesley Matthews even a better player than Raja Bell, at least for the perimeter-defender role they're both expected to fill? If not, what does that say about our front office as compared to (contrasted with) Utah's?

 

[Nikolokolus]

I think a more interesting question is one Wheels just alluded to on the radio. Utah essentially just replaced the guy we're paying $6.5M/year with a guy they're going to pay $3M/year. Is Wesley Matthews even a better player than Raja Bell, at least for the perimeter-defender role they're both expected to fill? If not, what does that say about our front office as compared to (contrasted with) Utah's?

I think it says Wes Matthews is 23 and Raja Bell is 34 ... wings over thirty (especially defensive aces) don't usually age real well.

 

[GODunk]

I think it says Wes Matthews is 23 and Raja Bell is 34 ... wings over thirty (especially defensive aces) don't usually age real well.

Concisely. Raja also was injured last year and when a man who hangs his hat on perimeter D begins to lose a step or two they lose value. I would way rather have Matthews at 6.5 than Bell at 3, 2, or 1...

 

[B-Roy]

I think it says Wes Matthews is 23 and Raja Bell is 34 ... wings over thirty (especially defensive aces) don't usually age real well.

Bruce Bowen? For someone who doesn't really rely on athleticism, he played really well until he was 37.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Bruce Bowen? For someone who doesn't really rely on athleticism, he played really well until he was 37.

No one's saying there aren't exceptions to the rule.

 

[tlongII]

Matthews can play the 2. Martell can't.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Matthews can play the 2. Martell can't.

OK pop quiz. What exactly is the difference in your opinion? Isn't the modern wing kind of interchangeable, I mean unless you are talking about offensive skills like dribbling into traffic, etc.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

OK pop quiz. What exactly is the difference in your opinion? Isn't the modern wing kind of interchangeable, I mean unless you are talking about offensive skills like dribbling into traffic, etc.

Martell used to be billed as a SG, and while he can do the "shooting" part of shooting guard, there's more to it; Martell's ballhandling skills were abysmal compared to a true SG like Roy, or even an average SG. It might be worth the money to effectively turn Martell from a SF into an SG, while giving him an 8% boost in shooting overall.

 

[GODunk]

OK pop quiz. What exactly is the difference in your opinion? Isn't the modern wing kind of interchangeable, I mean unless you are talking about offensive skills like dribbling into traffic, etc.

I think that the 2 requires ballhandling and decision making with the ball (amongst other things obviously). Decision making with the ball includes passing skills, but more than that, when to pass and when to keep it. Those are a couple of areas that I think prevent Webster from being real effective at the 2, but I think he is definitely adequate in those areas to play the 3. Other than that it comes down to whether a 3 like Webster can guard a 2. Personally, I liked Webster, I just feel like Batum needs and deserves a 30+ minute role.

I don't know that much about Matthews. I couldn't say whether he defends 2's better than Webster. I know he guarded Kobe, but I don't know if that comes down to him being the best option the Jazz had at the time. Knowing, at least statistically speaking, his role with the Jazz, it looks to me like he would be adequate in the backup role.

 

[B-Roy]

No one's saying there aren't exceptions to the rule.

You said defensive aces. So what are some defensive aces that didn't age well? Because even if their production drops offensively, their defense is still mostly intact as it relies more on hustle/skill than athleticism.

 

[Nikolokolus]

You said defensive aces. So what are some defensive aces that didn't age well? Because even if their production drops offensively, their defense is still mostly intact as it relies more on hustle/skill than athleticism.

I'm having a hard time coming up with a great comprehensive list off the top of my head, but I think Artest has lost a step, Battier isn't quite what he used to be, Posey is falling down pretty fast ... I dunno, I'm sure there's others, but those are the first few to pop into my head.

 

[B-Roy]

I'm having a hard time coming up with a great comprehensive list off the top of my head, but I think Artest has lost a step, Battier isn't quite what he used to be, Posey is falling down pretty fast ... I dunno, I'm sure there's others, but those are the first few to pop into my head.

Posey is not much of an ace, and Battier was pretty good two seasons ago. The Rockets as a team struggled last season without Yao, so I wouldn't put too much into that.

And Artest seems OK, he's not the best defender in the world anymore, but he's still very good. And hey, he's got Kobe's backing.

 

[GODunk]

You said defensive aces. So what are some defensive aces that didn't age well? Because even if their production drops offensively, their defense is still mostly intact as it relies more on hustle/skill than athleticism.

I personally think that Artest isn't as consistently good as he was a couple years ago. I also think that Bell wasn't as effective his final year with Phoenix and Charlotte. He was injured all of last year. I think it comes down to how much the refs let them get away with as they get older. How old was Rueben Patterson when he couldn't get a job? That would be a testament to the fact that he lost some skill as he aged. Off the top of my head I can't come up with defensive stoppers for some reason.

Your post does bring up a valid point. I still would go for Wes Matthews over Bell at those prices.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Sure they're all still "good" but I wouldn't call them great anymore. Anyway what were we talking about? Martell vs. Matthews right.

 

[B-Roy]

Sure they're all still "good" but I wouldn't call them great anymore. Anyway what were we talking about? Martell vs. Matthews right.

Not like either of those two are aces anyways right?

EDIT: If we were close to a championship, I'd probably rather have Raja than Matthews honestly. He seems like he'd be more help in the short run.

 

[Wheels]

Not like either of those two are aces anyways right?

EDIT: If we were close to a championship, I'd probably rather have Raja than Matthews honestly. He seems like he'd be more help in the short run.

If we are gonna do that, I would have loved Barnes then.

 

[BengalDuck]

Bruce Bowen? For someone who doesn't really rely on athleticism, he played really well until he was 37.

No, no he didnt. Bowen was a shell of his former self those last two or three seasons,

 

[BrianFromWA]

if we're bashing Martell's decision-making, passing and ballhandling (and it's legit to do so, IMO); is no one concerned about Matthew's doubling Webster's Turnover rate?

 

[B-Roy]

No, no he didnt. Bowen was a shell of his former self those last two or three seasons,

Well offensively you're right, (Although there was never any O in Bruce) but Bruce Bowen was all defensive 1st in 07-08. Even if you argue that he didn't deserve the honors, a defender who can get calls based on reputation is still a valuable player.

 

[GODunk]

if we're bashing Martell's decision-making, passing and ballhandling (and it's legit to do so, IMO); is no one concerned about Matthew's doubling Webster's Turnover rate?

I admittedly don't know that much about Matthews. I think he will be fine as a role player. I think the Webster deal was more about opening a door for more minutes by Batum and getting a shooter in Babbitt. Nate said he wanted shooter(s) in the off-season, and judging by the minutes he gave Martell he didn't consider him to be what he wanted.

 

[andalusian]

if we're bashing Martell's decision-making, passing and ballhandling (and it's legit to do so, IMO); is no one concerned about Matthew's doubling Webster's Turnover rate?

Going to take a wait and see approach on this one - see if Portland's deliberate pace is a factor - and also expect that maybe this is one place where Webster's 4 or 5 extra years in the league really was a big difference.

Sure, they are both the same age - but I suspect that this is a big adjustment for Wes - playing the NBA game, reading the right reads, knowing what the offense and the defense will do.

Not too worried as of now, to be honest.

 

[Ed O]

You said defensive aces. So what are some defensive aces that didn't age well? Because even if their production drops offensively, their defense is still mostly intact as it relies more on hustle/skill than athleticism.

Doug Christie didn't. After three straight all-defensive NBA appearances, he was essentially done at age 34.

Mookie Blaylock didn't. Two years after six straight all-defensive NBA appearances, he was essentially done at age 33.

Alvin Robertson. A couple of years after six straight all-defensive NBA appearances, he was out of the league at age 33.

Those are guys who I thought of off the top of my head (with a bit of research to back 'em up, of course). I'm sure there are others.

Ed O.

 

[STOMP]

Because the Jazz play a system that encourages cutters and slashers, and on top of that they've got a great point guard getting people the ball.

Portland plays a system that encourages players to shoot jumpers, and shoot jumpers they do......

Andre doesn't get cutters the ball?

Last year (just like every year) Martell shot over 50% of his attempts from deep. The players that do that are guys who don't have handles and/or the athleticism to create space for a good look. Steve Blake didn't take it to the hole on the Clippers and he won't start now on the Lakers... neither would Rudy on any other team. If Martell had the ability to be anything more then a one trick pony I'm sure Portland would have loved him to flash that on occasion.

Last year Wes shot 29% of his shots from 3s. This number probably goes up as Nate does like to spread the court, but I'm guessing he'll be going to the rim when his man closes out on him too hard because thats what he's already demonstrated he will do.

my main guess as to why Webster was dealt is that he'd pretty much proven he didn't do well in a limited role. With Nic's emergence, thats all that would have been available for a wing with no handle. He'll get a bigger role in Minnesota and hopefully for him do well with it. Hopefully Wes will excel in the limited minutes available backing up the wing spots in PDX... hopefully he demonstrates some semblance of a handle

STOMP

 

[Nikolokolus]

if we're bashing Martell's decision-making, passing and ballhandling (and it's legit to do so, IMO); is no one concerned about Matthew's doubling Webster's Turnover rate?

The flex offense is different, everybody is expected to cut, screen and pass. Marty was strictly a catch and shoot guy on the wing with almost no responsibilities for creating. Different styles of play.

ps. Matthews also doubled Martell's assist rate, so take that for what it's worth

 

[Idog1976]

if we're bashing Martell's decision-making, passing and ballhandling (and it's legit to do so, IMO); is no one concerned about Matthew's doubling Webster's Turnover rate?

The thing that frustrates me is that it SHOULD be Martell vs Babbit we are talking about. I like Wesley and would have liked to add him to our bench with Martell instead of subtracting him especially for Babbit who from all reports is utter garbage.

 

[Pinwheel1]

The thing that frustrates me is that it SHOULD be Martell vs Babbit we are talking about. I like Wesley and would have liked to add him to our bench with Martell instead of subtracting him especially for Babbit who from all reports is utter garbage.

Who is reporting that?

 

[BGrantFan]

The thing that frustrates me is that it SHOULD be Martell vs Babbit we are talking about. I like Wesley and would have liked to add him to our bench with Martell instead of subtracting him especially for Babbit who from all reports is utter garbage.

Huh? What the fuck are you rambling on about now?

Repped!

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Who is reporting that?

Well, right now, the MSP guys are reporting exactly that. Not that that means anything.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Well, right now, the MSP guys are reporting exactly that. Not that that means anything.

I give Antonio a little bit of credibility (players usually know a player when they see one) and he's pretty dubious and thinks Babbitt's at least a year away -- which I tend to agree with. Babbitt's ability to catch and shoot is not very good at all right now, he can certainly get better at it: but he's got to learn to catch, square and release almost in one motion. His shooting mechanics aren't bad, but his release is pretty slow and that isn't going to cut it at the NBA level.

 

[Idog1976]

Who is reporting that?

Everyone on the forum who's watched summer league has more or less said that FWIW.