McCann vs. Saltamacchia

[vette322]

Even if you like McCann better than Saltamacchia (looking at last years stats - pretty comparable) - not sure that I would have paid the older McCann almost 5 times as much (around $100M with the vesting year vs. $21M) and twice as long (6yrs vs. 3yrs). Seems like a pretty large disparity for 2 players that don't appear all that different.

 

[Majorball]

Vette, although I for one like the signing of McCann, the similarities in 2013 stats are obvious. I think Salty has a higher K factor and they both are average to less than average on defense. I feel most scouts and GM's had McCann as a better player, but not a better bargain perhaps. As I stated in other threads, this is the price you pay for no farm system. I give the Yankees credit, at least they are using their only asset currently available to them, money. I pray that after this reset of quality players for 2014, the focus shifts to the player development side, with the occasional FA signing to fill one need ideally.

 

[mrmel29]

Vette, although I for one like the signing of McCann, the similarities in 2013 stats are obvious. I think Salty has a higher K factor and they both are average to less than average on defense. I feel most scouts and GM's had McCann as a better player, but not a better bargain perhaps. As I stated in other threads, this is the price you pay for no farm system. I give the Yankees credit, at least they are using their only asset currently available to them, money. I pray that after this reset of quality players for 2014, the focus shifts to the player development side, with the occasional FA signing to fill one need ideally.

Major, I'm with you but how many years and resets already have we said this about trashman. He is clueless with draft picks and the player development staff doesn't develop anybody which is a bad combination. Until that changes we will be resetting again in 4 or 5 years.

 

[yankeesince59]

...simple question, if McCann and Elsbury help to produce at least 2 more Titles in the next, 7 years, is it worth it?

 

[blgridesagain]

A few "things" to consider.

1)Salty has been a semi-regular/backup catcher for the most part and McCann has been a regular catcher.

2) Career stats
Salty----- .246 BA, .310 OBP, .428 SLG%, .738 OPS
McCann-- .277 BA, .350 OBP, .473 SLG%, .823 OPS

3) Salty has struck out more times than McCann with 1862 FEWER career ABs than McCann.


And from what I saw defensively from Salty this past post season, the catcher's position might be the LAST place I would want him.... lol


I'll take McCann....even if it costs alot more.
4 or so years down the road, he should still be a dangerous hitter at Yankee Stadium as a dh or part-time 1B,

My opinion- if he stays healthy, he'll be a very good signing/Yankee.

 

[yankeesince59]

...Salty is not very good and simply had a career year in 2013...but that's enough for some to compare him to McCann.

 

[RustySpan]

McCann also boasts a respectable career CERA of 3.78, and a great CERA over the last 5 years, he's a great game caller, Salty not so much at 4.49, last year was his only good year, he's a pretty bad game caller.

I know CERA is not a great stat, but still, the stat shows that McCann handles a staff well, and that must have weighed heavily on the decision, NY and Girardi like their catchers to know the batters and call a good game, that is very clear.

Also McCann seems like a guy passionate about the game and wants to win, Salty may be the same way, don't know, but we have seen this with McCann so player attitude may also have been a big part of their wanting the guy bad.

 

[vette322]

Does anyone really think McCann is 3 years and $80M better than Salty?

 

[bern_baby_bern]

Does anyone really think McCann is 3 years and $80M better than Salty?

Yes, for all of the reasons highlighted above…and his right hand bat was aided by the handball wall in Boston. He would have been an unmitigated nightmare here. McCann will win over fans in no time here.

 

[vette322]

Yes, for all of the reasons highlighted above…and his right hand bat was aided by the handball wall in Boston. He would have been an unmitigated nightmare here. McCann will win over fans in no time here.

Seeing that you're for this deal and the Ellsbury deal terms, I can only take away that you would rather spend $253M on McCann and Ellsbury than spend $253M on Cano ($200M) and Salty ($21M), and still have another $30M to use on other areas of need with this team (Pitching, 3B)?

You can't keep rubber-stamping these overpays as "good moves" and not have a grasp of the bigger picture. If the Yankees lose Cano because they won't go to $200M, they will have spent the same amount of $$$ on 2 guys, instead of perhaps 4 guys (which would include Cano, who is clearly the best player in this group).

 

[bern_baby_bern]

Seeing that you're for this deal and the Ellsbury deal terms, I can only take away that you would rather spend $253M on McCann and Ellsbury than spend $253M on Cano ($200M) and Salty ($21M), and still have another $30M to use on other areas of need with this team (Pitching, 3B)?

You can't keep rubber-stamping these overpays as "good moves" and not have a grasp of the bigger picture. If the Yankees lose Cano because they won't go to $200M, they will have spent the same amount of $$$ on 2 guys, instead of perhaps 4 guys (which would include Cano, who is clearly the best player in this group).

Please quote my support of Ellsbury's terms or stfu. I like the idea of Ellsbbury but the term and money are too much. AND if that deal in any way hampers the resigning of Cano then I hate it. I do like the Johnson signing, low money good utility player. Much rather them make that move then wait until Feb/March to pick somebody off the scrap heap. The McCann move is a great one to me. Best player available at that position that bridges you to Sanchez. The need for a McCann type could not be clearer, growing from the year Jorge left and highlighted most this past season. For anyone to call it a minor upgrade (RiverAveBlues) is absolutely absurd.

 

[vette322]

Please quote my support of Ellsbury's terms or stfu. I like the idea of Ellsbbury but the term and money are too much. AND if that deal in any way hampers the resigning of Cano then I hate it. I do like the Johnson signing, low money good utility player. Much rather them make that move then wait until Feb/March to pick somebody off the scrap heap. The McCann move is a great one to me. Best player available at that position that bridges you to Sanchez. The need for a McCann type could not be clearer, growing from the year Jorge left and highlighted most this past season. For anyone to call it a minor upgrade (RiverAveBlues) is absolutely absurd.

So if that's your stance (and yes - you were NOT one of those slobbering over the Ellsbury deal terms).....wouldn't you rather sign Salty over McCann, and use some of that "extra" $80M to make sure you get Cano locked up, and STILL have $$$ to sign another starter and perhaps a closer? For a team with as many needs as the Yankees have - you can't take a 1-off view of any one move, unless you look at the bigger picture. Now, if the Yankees sign Cano (which I think they will do), this makes things look better for sure, but spending $250M on 2 guys, and neither is named Robinson Cano IMO does not make sense.

 

[bern_baby_bern]

...wouldn't you rather sign Salty over McCann, and use some of that "extra" $80M to make sure you get Cano locked up

No. Catcher was a huge need and they filled it with the best available option. I would rather they didn't sign Ellsbury and sign Cano if I had to make a choice. They can sign Cano and the debate is moot but my feeling is that a catcher was a must and Ellsbury was overkill. Love the fact that the best leadoff hitter in the game is here, it definitely isn't worth losing an elite player like Cano. So, again, don't tell me I'm blindly supporting Ellsbury's terms.

 

[vette322]

No. Catcher was a huge need and they filled it with the best available option. I would rather they didn't sign Ellsbury and sign Cano if I had to make a choice. They can sign Cano and the debate is moot but my feeling is that a catcher was a must and Ellsbury was overkill. Love the fact that the best leadoff hitter in the game is here, it definitely isn't worth losing an elite player like Cano. So, again, don't tell me I'm blindly supporting Ellsbury's terms.

You still don't see how $80M more for McCann over Salty or $64M more of McCann over Ruiz has limited this team to fill multiple needs? I think you are grossly overrating McCann by a large degree if you think he is $80M better than the field, as opposed to a guy like AJ for 1 year at a time at $8M, Salty or Ruiz for a deal for half the length, and 20% and roughly a third, respectively. $80M is larger than the payroll of some teams, including playoff teams.

And yes - you were not one of those all over the Ellsbury deal - my bad.

 

[Majorball]

Vette, what is the variable here is this. It is pretty clear that the Yankees are counting on 2 things. (1) The Arod suspension will be upheld. (2) If it's not then 189 be damn, the Yankees lost 52 mil in just ticket sales last year. One of the reasons that caused this as you know was a knee jerk reaction to all of the injuries which are part of the game but the Yankees couldn't forsee all those lost games with the exception of Jeter.

With that said, The Yankees will most likely pay between 30-60 million in tax penalties as they right the business model by adding marquee named players that people will (1) pay to see, (2) Pay to watch, and (3) pay for jerseys and all that goes with the licensing income.

Don't you think Hal is running this portion of the off season, your points above are very true if the Yankees cared about money. To a point, everyone cares about money, and your argument would hold true for almost all the other franchises. But the Yankees are paying top dollar, I have always said that 8 years and 200 will be Cano's contract. At the end, he holds the leverage and the Yankees will continue spending to reload because they can. So in closing they will pay the 50% tax for most likely being 40 million over and around 239 with Arod's figured in. Is this the way it should be? NO.... But does making the playoffs every year except 2 normal or the way it should be? No... So to take this from 59, where I agree with him, if we win 2 World Series, which is no guarantee, would it be worth it yes. My final point, according to the experts a win is worth 7 million above replacement. If they, McCann and Ellsbury combine for a 7 up, they pay for themselves in theory... Until someone in Yankee land can get player development to a reasonable level, this is the business plan and the money and terms are the cost of doing business, Thank God they choose to do business...

 

[yankeesince59]

Please quote my support of Ellsbury's terms or stfu. I like the idea of Ellsbbury but the term and money are too much. AND if that deal in any way hampers the resigning of Cano then I hate it. I do like the Johnson signing, low money good utility player. Much rather them make that move then wait until Feb/March to pick somebody off the scrap heap. The McCann move is a great one to me. Best player available at that position that bridges you to Sanchez. The need for a McCann type could not be clearer, growing from the year Jorge left and highlighted most this past season. For anyone to call it a minor upgrade (RiverAveBlues) is absolutely absurd.

...lmao...gee, he's never done anything like that before. (telling people what they think)

 

[vette322]

MB - I think we would all sign up for 2 titles in 7 years if these guys helped make that happen, but we have to get those 2 titles in 7 years first. Giambi, Sheffield, and all the other in-between 2001-2008 FAs didn't get us anything at all. Comparatively, for the $423M splurge of 2009, we have 1 title in 5 years to show for it. Heck - I'm good with 2 titles in 7 years, if we start in 2009, meaning they get it done this year or next.

BUT, unless Hal is willing to go all-in (and that includes signing Cano, signing 2-3 starting pitchers, a 3B, perhaps a closer, and whatever else on top of McCann and Ellsbury) - my fear is that they will stop prematurely, and too many holes will remain, and this becomes a zero sum gain. My concern is that while the $189M may be out the window, it has been replaced with another $$$ in Hal's mind (not sure what that number is), but that number may come into play. As such, questioning the $$$ paid to McCann and Ellsbury is legit IMO if it means that other holes do not get filled. And of course we know that none of these holes get filled from the minor leagues...

 

[vette322]

...lmao...gee, he's never done anything like that before. (telling people what they think)

LMAO - was talking about bernie - not you and the patented 'that's not what I meant'.

 

[yankeesince59]

...I get it, they are bad deals now, but if they Yanx win 2 or more titles in the next 6-7 years, the deals then retroactively become good deals.

 

[yankeesince59]

LMAO - was talking about bernie - not you and the patented 'that's not what I meant'.

...uhhh, yeah, no shit, that's why I quoted his post, dumbass.

 

[yankeesince59]

...and feel free to actually back up your false claims for once;

http://sportstwo.com/threads/251249-Yankees-and-Brian-McCann-closing-in-on-Contract.../page2

 

[vette322]

...I get it, they are bad deals now, but if they Yanx win 2 or more titles in the next 6-7 years, the deals then retroactively become good deals.

As opposed to declaring them good deals NOW, before either guy takes the field? We all have opinions, which is pretty much what this board is about - we discuss, we predict, we are proven right, we are proven wrong, and in some cases - we parse everything with "that's not what I meant" to cover ourselves. But we all keep showing up, so who really cares?

 

[yankeesince59]

...but you nave NEVER been able to back up your "that's not what I meant" claims...not once. You shoot your mouth off by telling people what they mean and when asked to document it, you come up short...instead of just saying something, why not actually prove it...for once?

...and both McCann and Elsbury have already proven what they are capable of...you're simply bashing they money/terms...derp.

 

[vette322]

...uhhh, yeah, no shit, that's why I quoted his post, dumbass.

I subsequently recognized that and posted my mistake saying that bernie was all-in on the Ellsbury (post #14 on this thread). And when that circumstance arises with you (still hasn't happened), I will do the same.

 

[vette322]

...but you nave NEVER been able to back up your "that's not what I meant" claims...not once. You shoot your mouth off by telling people what they mean and when asked to document it, you come up short...instead of just saying something, why not actually prove it...for once?

...and both McCann and Elsbury have already proven what they are capable of...you're simply bashing they money/terms...derp.

You're "that's not what I meant act" is know by just about everyone - your denial of it is comical, derp. As for bashing the terms/$$$ of the McCann/Ellsbury deals - that's fair game, if it has downstream impacts on other decisions (i.e. Cano, starting pitching). Some of us have no problems voicing that, while some just 'bobblehead' up and down every move made and bash anyone for having opinions that go against the company line.

 

[yankeesince59]

I subsequently recognized that and posted my mistake saying that bernie was all-in on the Ellsbury (post #14 on this thread). And when that circumstance arises with you (still hasn't happened), I will do the same.

..I know you acknowledged it, chevette...I was pointing out the "nasty habit" you have of misreading/misinterpreting things, and then trying to tell people "what they really mean"...and you do.

...again, here's another example of your mania; http://sportstwo.com/threads/251249-Yankees-and-Brian-McCann-closing-in-on-Contract.../page2



...and there are more, would you care to revisit them?

 

[Majorball]

MB - I think we would all sign up for 2 titles in 7 years if these guys helped make that happen, but we have to get those 2 titles in 7 years first. Giambi, Sheffield, and all the other in-between 2001-2008 FAs didn't get us anything at all. Comparatively, for the $423M splurge of 2009, we have 1 title in 5 years to show for it. Heck - I'm good with 2 titles in 7 years, if we start in 2009, meaning they get it done this year or next.

BUT, unless Hal is willing to go all-in (and that includes signing Cano, signing 2-3 starting pitchers, a 3B, perhaps a closer, and whatever else on top of McCann and Ellsbury) - my fear is that they will stop prematurely, and too many holes will remain, and this becomes a zero sum gain. My concern is that while the $189M may be out the window, it has been replaced with another $$$ in Hal's mind (not sure what that number is), but that number may come into play. As such, questioning the $$$ paid to McCann and Ellsbury is legit IMO if it means that other holes do not get filled. And of course we know that none of these holes get filled from the minor leagues...

Vette, I for one will change my opinion totally if Hal and the boys club aren't all in. If Hal thinks he can bluff the fan base with Ellsbury and McCann he is more arrogant then I thought. However, if he signs Cano, takes on a bad contract at 3B for 2 years as Jags get there we hope, adds pitching (lots of pitching) then I say let the chips fall where they may. Last years Red Soxs team is a perfect example of good fortune (going 7 for 7 in signings), chemistry, and very little injuries. It can happen, will it. What hasn't been mentioned is, who is the clear cut leader going into 2014 in the American League? Could it be so balanced?

 

[yankeesince59]

You're "that's not what I meant act" is know by just about everyone - your denial of it is comical, derp. As for bashing the terms/$$$ of the McCann/Ellsbury deals - that's fair game, if it has downstream impacts on other decisions (i.e. Cano, starting pitching). Some of us have no problems voicing that, while some just 'bobblehead' up and down every move made and bash anyone for having opinions that go against the company line.

...my "act" is known by "just about everyone"?...who is that?...who are you now speaking for?

...for ONCE, will you actually back up your big mouth by producing something tangible instead of making false blanket statements and claims?

...how do these deals prevent the Yanx from signing Cano and other players? (and please list these supposed players)...and your last sentence is not only hypocritical, it's hilarious.

 

[vette322]

.

...again, here's another example of your mania; http://sportstwo.com/threads/251249-Yankees-and-Brian-McCann-closing-in-on-Contract.../page2

...and there are more, would you care to revisit them?

One of my favorites - McCann "plays a pretty good 1B". You could have said "maybe he could play 1B" (despite never had played there), but you went all the way, scrotum-over-feet by saying he " plays a pretty good 1B". Not sure why you would post that entire thread to support any point you're trying to make - you got worked like a rib on that one. And "chevette" - yea - haha "69".

 

[yankeesince59]

...you cannot back up your claims, so you attempt misdirection?...pretty much what I thought."

...and I got "worked like a rib"?...really, how's that?...you mean by making an error that I immediately admitted?...kinda goes hand in hand with your faux pas earlier in this thread, huh?........."worked"?...please, get over yourself. You've been asked multiple times to produce something other than your big mouth to back up your claims and you have failed miserably EVERY time.


...and I've been calling you chevette for awhile now, and I think it's quite apropos...and I certainly don't mind "69" if you don't mind "chevette"