Exclusive Meltdown Thread

[Phatguysrule]

They would have just as easily shut Norm down like everyone else.

Why pay him when you don't have to? Maybe he wasn't willing to tank? And then what do you gain? There is no market for him and now he's the 4th guard? And you're paying $20 million for him for 4 more years?

Makes no sense.

 

[wizenheimer]

Blazers at full strength could have easily won 48 games this year.

except for Dame's abdomen they were at "full strength" and were 10 games under .500 in January. Either full strength was an illusion or the difference between 50 wins and 35 wins all rests on Dame. I kind of think we knew that though

but what's your point? Did you want another reboot of the same dead-end rosters the Blazers rebooted for the 6 previous years?

 

[Ed O]

Yeah, we really do. Nobody had any better trade suggestions that worked better for the Blazers and that the other team would also agree to.

This is terrible logic.

It's like saying everyone who's ever been married made the right decision because they didn't ask anyone else who said "yes" to marrying them. Just like bad marriages sometimes happen, bad trades sometimes happen, too. There's a ZERO PERCENT CHANCE that every NBA trade made by every NBA GM in history has been the best possible deal for their teams. And yet you treat the mere existence of the deals as evidence that they're the best he could have done.

We don't know (a) that he talked to every team, (b) did a good job negotiating with every team, (c) and/or properly judged the values of assets other teams were offering him.

 

[Ed O]

Why pay him when you don't have to? Maybe he wasn't willing to tank? And then what do you gain? There is no market for him and now he's the 4th guard? And you're paying $20 million for him for 4 more years?

Makes no sense.

Because you can't get anything for him at that point. Why not wait? You can always get nothing for him later, but there's a chance that something might change and you can get more than nothing for him down the road.

 

[Phatguysrule]

This is terrible logic.

It's like saying everyone who's ever been married made the right decision because they didn't ask anyone else who said "yes" to marrying them. Just like bad marriages sometimes happening, bad trades sometimes happen, too. There's a ZERO PERCENT CHANCE that every NBA trade made by every NBA GM in history has been the best possible deal for their teams. And yet you treat the mere existence of the deals as evidence that they're the best he could have done.

We don't know (a) that he talked to every team, (b) did a good job negotiating with every team, (c) and/or properly judged the values of assets other teams were offering him.

Which is why I've said we just don't know.

There was no other obvious trade out there that was much better for us and another team would agree to.

There is no evidence of interest for those players so it's not logical to assume it was there.

Please find any trade proposal from another team's forum (or newspaper) that would have been as good as what we got. Then let's see how that proposal was viewed by their fans or other personalities.

Better trades both teams would agree to don't exist for those guys.

I listened to a ton of podcasts with other cities radio personalities and experts etc. Nobody was offering anything we'd want for CJ. Nothing that would improve the team. Hart was about the best, but that's just a marginal improvement at best (if you count on addition by subtraction and better fit, etc). Well, Simmons was the best high ceiling option, but Philly wasn't interested in that at all.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Because you can't get anything for him at that point. Why not wait? You can always get nothing for him later, but there's a chance that something might change and you can get more than nothing for him down the road.

Because you had a mandate that you had to get under the cap so we didn't pay the repeater tax. Keeping those guys just to keep them wasn't an option.

 

[wizenheimer]

We don't know (a) that he talked to every team, (b) did a good job negotiating with every team, (c) and/or properly judged the values of assets other teams were offering him.

then how is that so many people are convinced there were better trades to be made?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

then how is that so many people are convinced there were better trades to be made?

Perhaps people were just convinced that if those were the "best" trades available, then the team would have been better off not trading those players.

Or, alternately, that if those were the best trades that our fledgling GM was able to negotiate, then he was vastly deficient in his negotiation abilities.

Or perhaps there were better options he never discussed or proposed because he wasn't creative enough to conceive of them.

I don't think perspectives on the trades are necessarily as binary as you tend to imply.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Perhaps people were just convinced that if those were the "best" trades available, then the team would have been better off not trading those players.

Or, alternately, that if those were the best trades that our fledgling GM was able to negotiate, then he was vastly deficient in his negotiation abilities.

Or perhaps there were better options he never discussed or proposed because he wasn't creative enough to conceive of them.

I don't think perspectives on the trades are necessarily as binary as you tend to imply.

I have yet to see a trade proposal for those guys that would be better for us, get us under the cap, and be acceptable to the other team.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I have yet to see a trade proposal for those guys that would be better for us, get us under the cap, and be acceptable to the other team.

The first criterion is purely subjective, and last is completely speculative. I've seen several that I believe would fit that description, even if you disagree.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The first criterion is purely subjective, and last is completely speculative. I've seen several that I believe would fit that description, even if you disagree.

Care to share them?

 

[wizenheimer]

Perhaps people were just convinced that if those were the "best" trades available, then the team would have been better off not trading those players

Or, alternately, that if those were the best trades that our fledgling GM was able to negotiate, then he was vastly deficient in his negotiation abilities.

Or perhaps there were better options he never discussed or proposed because he wasn't creative enough to conceive of them

I don't think perspectives on the trades are necessarily as binary as you tend to imply.

in other words...there were better trades out there because people want to believe there were better trades out there. And since Cronin couldn't find those hypothetical better trades and turn them into real trades, he failed, and it was better to do nothing....even though it's obvious he was instructed to do a lot more than nothing

I will take linear logic over circular logic most every time

 

[wizenheimer]

The first criterion is purely subjective, and last is completely speculative. I've seen several that I believe would fit that description, even if you disagree.

are you talking about trade proposals from posters like us or the reported 'real' trade offers from other NBA teams?

 

[Fairly-Hard]

are you talking about trade proposals from posters like us or the reported 'real' trade offers from other NBA teams?

I even question "Reported" because plenty of things can get reported by local media that might never be true. Also some teams release certain info just to get a players value better. How many different people reported Lillard wanted to be traded?

 

[Phatguysrule]

I even question "Reported" because plenty of things can get reported by local media that might never be true. Also some teams release certain info just to get a players value better. How many different people reported Lillard wanted to be traded?

And how many reported that about CJ? Or RoCo? Or Norm? Or Nance?

Where there is smoke there may be fire. But there was a very distinct lack of smoke regarding these guys...

 

[wizenheimer]

I even question "Reported" because plenty of things can get reported by local media that might never be true. Also some teams release certain info just to get a players value better. How many different people reported Lillard wanted to be traded?

sure it may all be bullshit

but here's the thing, we have the Blazer trades. They happened. And, as far as any 'rumored' proposals we only have heard two for CJ; from Atlanta, and Dallas. Both of which are no better, and probably worse, than the trade to the Pels. Other than those two, all we have is frustration from people somehow convinced there had to be better deals out there, somewhere, anywhere. And that frustration based upon....nothing?...seems to be the genesis for a 10 week collective tantrum around here

I kind of see a balance....I wasn't impressed with payoff for the players traded; but I also wasn't impressed with the players traded. I think the scale that weighs all factors is a lot closer to balance than many of you do

 

[blazerkor]

I really think all of this is bullshit and the fact is that no one in here has or at least has shared anything remotely close to evidence to support a stance that we absolutely could have gotten better for the guys we sent out or that we absolutely could not have. So in that way this discussion that I have been a part of has been and remains completely pointless and truly without merit on both sides. At the same time it is pointless because it is done, it doesn't matter if there weren't any better trades or if there were because we now have what we have.

I guess it does matter in a forum sense if people in here want Cronin to get the permanent GM job or not but that's not in our control at all. I just hope we get resolution on that as soon as possible, I hope we get the first pick in the draft during the lottery (or at least move up) and I hope we have the person in place to make the best moves and actually does execute the best moves at the draft and during free agency.

What we got for CJ, Norm, RoCo and Larry if you like it or if you don't is Hart, Winslow, Johnson, the Bucks' 2025 first rounder top 4 protected by the Pelicans, Louzada, RFA rights on Hughes, bird rights on Ingles, the 57th pick in this year's draft, the Pistons' second rounder in 2025, the Pelicans' 2027 second rounder, a second round pick swap with the Pelicans in 2026, two TPE's worth ~21M and ~6M and a shit ton of future salaries cut. That's what we had and now what we have. That is not up for debate. It's what we all have to move forward knowing, some of us completely dissatisfied with this reality, others seemingly completely satisfied with it and still others somewhere in the middle. I would think that if you're not completely satisfied with what went out and what came back then you would be hoping that either someone replaces Cronin immediately or that the team puts someone very good above Joe as President of Basketball Operations.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I really think all of this is bullshit and the fact is that no one in here has or at least has shared anything remotely close to evidence to support a stance that we absolutely could have gotten better for the guys we sent out or that we absolutely could not have. So in that way this discussion that I have been a part of has been and remains completely pointless and truly without merit on both sides. At the same time it is pointless because it is done, it doesn't matter if there weren't any better trades or if there were because we now have what we have.

I guess it does matter in a forum sense if people in here want Cronin to get the permanent GM job or not but that's not in our control at all. I just hope we get resolution on that as soon as possible, I hope we get the first pick in the draft during the lottery (or at least move up) and I hope we have the person in place to make the best moves and actually does execute the best moves at the draft and during free agency.

What we got for CJ, Norm, RoCo and Larry if you like it or if you don't is Hart, Winslow, Johnson, the Bucks' 2025 first rounder top 4 protected by the Pelicans, Louzada, RFA rights on Hughes, bird rights on Ingles, the 57th pick in this year's draft, the Pistons' second rounder in 2025, the Pelicans' 2027 second rounder and a second round pick swap with the Pelicans in 2026. That's what we had and now what we have. That is not up for debate. It's what we all have to move forward knowing, some of us completely dissatisfied with this reality, others seemingly completely satisfied with it and still others somewhere in the middle. I would think that if you're not completely satisfied with what went out and what came back then you would be hoping that either someone replaces Cronin immediately or that the team puts someone very good above Joe as President of Basketball Operations.

You keep forgetting to mention the salaries. Getting rid of those was out of Cronin's control.

And even without consideration of the salaries, nobody has shown any other trades that would have been much better for us than what Cronin did and would also be appealing for the other team.

I don't understand how people can be so upset with an outcome without considering the alternatives.

Norm and CJ were not coming back. That salary had to go. Once you accept that, there weren't much better options. And you had to include Nance and RoCo to make it palatable for the other teams.

 

[Hoopguru]

Sure has been quiet from Blazers front office. Have they melted down?

 

[blazerkor]

You keep forgetting to mention the salaries. Getting rid of those was out of Cronin's control.

And even without consideration of the salaries, nobody has shown any other trades that would have been much better for us than what Cronin did and would also be appealing for the other team.

I don't understand how people can be so upset with an outcome without considering the alternatives.

Norm and CJ were not coming back. That salary had to go. Once you accept that, there weren't much better options. And you had to include Nance and RoCo to make it palatable for the other teams.

Fuck! I swear that was meant to come right after the pick swap. So my bad

*the over hundred million in future salaries cut from the books. I will also put that in the post you are replying to. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Fuck! I swear that was meant to come right after the pick swap. So my bad

*the over hundred million in future salaries cut from the books. I will also put that in the post you are replying to. Thanks for the heads up.

And that's all ownership. Nothing Cronin or any other GM could do about that. And that was known pretty much league wide long before the deadline...

 

[blazerkor]

You keep forgetting to mention the salaries. Getting rid of those was out of Cronin's control.

And even without consideration of the salaries, nobody has shown any other trades that would have been much better for us than what Cronin did and would also be appealing for the other team.

I don't understand how people can be so upset with an outcome without considering the alternatives.

Norm and CJ were not coming back. That salary had to go. Once you accept that, there weren't much better options. And you had to include Nance and RoCo to make it palatable for the other teams.

A lack of the ability to prove conjecture on an argument is just as compelling for the arguments that criticize the moves as it is to those that say they were the best deals possible. Not one of us, not even if you were an NBA insider has the info to definitively say there were better moves out there or there weren't. The fact that you won't give up on your side of that being some sort of certainty is really incredibly illogical, meaning that it shows that your lack of logic calls into question your credibility.

 

[blazerkor]

And that's all ownership. Nothing Cronin or any other GM could do about that. And that was known pretty much league wide long before the deadline...

That's a fair assumption but it's still an assumption. The only part of that which is confirmed and was confirmed by Cronin while explaining why he made the moves he made which in and of itself makes the source not quite concrete, is that we had to cut ~2M from the cap for this season to avoid the repeater tax. It's just conjecture on my part and does not in the least bit matter since the deals are already done but I think that ~2M could have been cut in a thousand different ways using one of any of the thirty teams in the NBA as a trade partner.

 

[Phatguysrule]

A lack of the ability to prove conjecture on an argument is just as compelling for the arguments that criticize the moves as it is to those that say they were the best deals possible. Not one of us, not even if you were an NBA insider has the info to definitively say there were better moves out there or there weren't. The fact that you won't give up on your side of that being some sort of certainty is really incredibly illogical, meaning that it shows that your lack of logic calls into question your credibility.

Everybody knew they were getting under the salary cap before the deadline. Every podcast and news reporter knew it. It wasn't a secret.

The way things went down back that up.

I'm not certain of anything except no body has shown any proposals that would be agreeable to both sides.

Why would I assume there were better deals available? I've said many times, we just don't know enough to know one way or the other.

You're trying to paint me into a position I haven't taken. I'm not defending Cronin. I'm asking people to back up the reasoning for their anger.

Being angry for no reason just seems illogical to me. Yeah, we had a ton of salary to dump and it was mostly wrapped up in duplicate players who aren't overly hard to find, so not overly valuable to most teams. Certainly not as valuable as long 2-way wings...

 

[Phatguysrule]

That's a fair assumption but it's still an assumption. The only part of that which is confirmed and was confirmed by Cronin while explaining why he made the moves he made which in and of itself makes the source not quite concrete, is that we had to cut ~2M from the cap for this season to avoid the repeater tax. It's just conjecture on my part and does not in the least bit matter since the deals are already done but I think that ~2M could have been cut in a thousand different ways using one of any of the thirty teams in the NBA as a trade partner.

Cutting just 2 million isn't going to help much for keeping you under the cap when you are going to be signing Ant to $20 mil plus and Nurk to $15 and Nasir to maybe $10 mil...

Unfortunately just looking at talent out and talent in doesn't tell the whole story. It's not that easy.

 

[blazerkor]

Cutting just 2 million isn't going to help much for keeping you under the cap when you are going to be signing Ant to $20 mil plus and Nurk to $15 and Nasir to maybe $10 mil...

Unfortunately just looking at talent out and talent in doesn't tell the whole story. It's not that easy.

If the idea is to never be in the tax again, fuck our ownership.

 

[Phatguysrule]

If the idea is to never be in the tax again, fuck our ownership.

The idea is to avoid the repeater tax by being under for the year.
We'll be over next year. But yeah, fuck our ownership. We need better ownership, for sure.

 

[blazerkor]

The idea is to avoid the repeater tax by being under for the year.
We'll be over next year. But yeah, fuck our ownership. We need better ownership, for sure.

If the idea is just to get out of the repeater it's just being under this year because we dodged it last season too... being under this season completely resets the clock. So all we had to do to make sure we wouldn't be a repeater team this year or any of the next three was cut our cap number by ~2M. But it doesn't matter because we made the moves we made and we can just hope for the best moves possible going forward and that the best person/people possible is or are making those decisions. We also got to hope to get a little lucky and move up in the lotto or less likely stay where we're at. It is more likely that we land a top four pick than it is that we land the seventh pick and it's also more likely that we get one of the top for than the eighth. Obviously when you combine the odds of the 7th and 8th pick that range is the most likely destination for our pick. Let's hope we get a little lucky.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/tax/

 

[Pinwheel1]

The idea is to avoid the repeater tax by being under for the year.
We'll be over next year. But yeah, fuck our ownership. We need better ownership, for sure.

Maybe, but what we most definitely don't need.......is worse ownership. And that is a huge possibility. All the new owners these days have 2 billion or more.
You need an owner who is not in it for the money because those owners will sell to make a profit....to anyone, anywhere. Let me know when we have the list put together of multi-billionaires who are big Portland fans that under no circumstance will move the team, or even worry about the luxury tax. We have had one of the highest payrolls for years until now. Yes we could use better management, but we could also of have had much worse ownership.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Maybe, but what we most definitely don't need.......is worse ownership. And that is a huge possibility. All the new owners these days have 2 billion or more.
You need an owner who is not in it for the money because those owners will sell to make a profit....to anyone, anywhere. Let me know when we have the list put together of multi-billionaires who are big Portland fans that under no circumstance will move the team, or even worry about the luxury tax. We have had one of the highest payrolls for years until now. Yes we could use better management, but we could also of have had much worse ownership.

Agreed. It's definitely scary, but it's been coming since Paul died...