Merged: I just can't stand it anymore! Unreal,

[KingSpeed]

I thought Jerryd played really well tonight, but he played 17 minutes and was -10. Blake played 38 minutes and was -2. I understand the anger, but perhaps the coaching staff is seeing things we're not.

Flame away.

By that logic, Howard should have started. He was +12.

 

[maxiep]

By that logic, Howard should have started. He was +12.

Howard did a nice job. His impact didn't show up in the stats. Should he have started? Absolutely not. However, let's not pretend when he came in the game that the Knicks were really playing hard. They weren't. You were there; do you understand so little about the game you couldn't see it?

 

[jlprk]

KingSpeed, you and I may agree that this season is salvageable. The lineup isn't any worse than last year, except at substitute Center--let's compare the few changes. Webster and Miller (added) are as good as Outlaw and Sergio (departed). Rudy is hurting this year (subtraction), but Bayless, a SG not a PG, is better (addition). So it all evens out and we should proceed at a 54-win pace, unless the confusion in roles continues.

Right?

 

[maxiep]

KingSpeed, you and I may agree that this season is salvageable. The lineup isn't any worse than last year, except at substitute Center--let's compare the few changes. Webster and Miller (added) are as good as Outlaw and Sergio (departed). Rudy is hurting this year (subtraction), but Bayless, a SG not a PG, is better (addition). So it all evens out and we should proceed at a 54-win pace, unless the confusion in roles continues.

Right?

I'd love to agree with you, but the vibe of the team is different. Last year we were five fingers working together that created a fist. Now we're five fingers working independently that creates a girl slap.

The body language of this team is terrible. We're not communicating, we're not working, we've lost our mojo and I think we're on the verge of mailing the season in. I don't think this is a particularly strong-willed team, and I think they're comfortable with making the excuse that there are just too many injuries and their date with destiny will have to wait another year.

 

[Miksaid]

KingSpeed, you and I may agree that this season is salvageable. The lineup isn't any worse than last year, except at substitute Center--let's compare the few changes. Webster and Miller (added) are as good as Outlaw and Sergio (departed). Rudy is hurting this year (subtraction), but Bayless, a SG not a PG, is better (addition). So it all evens out and we should proceed at a 54-win pace, unless the confusion in roles continues.

Right?

Not having a formidable back up center is a significant loss.

Joel (so far) isn't playing like the Joel from last year. Ditto for Blake.

At least Outlaw could play back up 4. Him and Rudy were also a great deal better at spacing the floor for Brandon to operate than Webster and Bayless are.

Miller's value to me was getting Oden the ball and running, neither of which we have.

We had Batum who was the only one who played perimeter defense.

We're a Brandon Roy sprained ankle away from being in the lottery.

Chris Paul and JVG........... let's make it happen.

 

[jlprk]

I forgot to put Batum into my comparison of last year to now. The big difference, I think, is that Roy isn't really as good a player as he appeared last year, but he needs to overperform this year, too. With Oden gone, McMillan can mold the system around Roy again, and Roy can again put the team on his shoulders, and his teammates can again just play off of him. Someday Roy will have to share accolades with another star like Oden, but for this season, Roy needs to be The Man. Maybe it will now happen and maybe it won't, but I don't think a doomed season is certain yet.

 

[SpanishFly]

I thought Jerryd played really well tonight, but he played 17 minutes and was -10. Blake played 38 minutes and was -2. I understand the anger, but perhaps the coaching staff is seeing things we're not.

Flame away.

I usually respect your comments but using PER as some kind of support for the coach taking Bayless out is one of your poorest efforts I have ever seen Riggo/Maxie. Do you have two eyes and were you watching?

 

[Natebishop3]

By that logic, Howard should have started. He was +12.

....

 

[LittleAlex]

I thought Jerryd played really well tonight, but he played 17 minutes and was -10. Blake played 38 minutes and was -2. I understand the anger, but perhaps the coaching staff is seeing things we're not.

Flame away.

How is this even possible when Blake was on the floor in the disaster that was the second quarter?

Sorry but I think those numbers are bullshit.

 

[maxiep]

I usually respect your comments but using PER as some kind of support for the coach taking Bayless out is one of your poorest efforts I have ever seen Riggo/Maxie. Do you have two eyes and were you watching?

PER? I was using +/-. I had the same impression as you; I thought Bayless far outplayed Blake. However, when I looked at the +/- numbers, I was surprised to see that the Knicks stretched their lead with him in the game. All I'm saying is that perhaps the coaches saw something in the way the team played with those two players in the game which told them they were better off with Blake playing twice as many minutes?

 

[maxiep]

How is this even possible when Blake was on the floor in the disaster that was the second quarter?

Sorry but I think those numbers are bullshit.

Wasn't Bayless on the floor in the second quarter? One of the things I love about numbers is that so often they reveal things we as casual fans may not pick up. Again, I thought Bayless far outplayed Blake, but our team seems to have played worse with him on the floor.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Wasn't Bayless on the floor in the second quarter? One of the things I love about numbers is that so often they reveal things we as casual fans may not pick up. Again, I thought Bayless far outplayed Blake, but our team seems to have played worse with him on the floor.

I wish I would have been able to watch the game to make my own determination about what went on, but there's an awful lot of noise in a single sample of +/- for it to mean anything at all ... and unadjusted +/- is particularly messy.

I would say to trust your eyes last night over a stat that probably ought not to be included in box scores.

 

[SpanishFly]

Wasn't Bayless on the floor in the second quarter? One of the things I love about numbers is that so often they reveal things we as casual fans may not pick up. Again, I thought Bayless far outplayed Blake, but our team seems to have played worse with him on the floor.

The huge deal in my perspective is his energy and play was probably the main driver in bringing us back with that 4th qtr run. I just don;t understand how this was not obvious to Dean (maybe nate called and told him to?) and how in hell could he justify taking Bayless out at that point? Is was simply idiotic.

 

[drexlersdad]

Nothing to be lost by seeing what we have in bayless and Dante tight now, and if we could claver freeland and koponen

 

[PapaG]

Nothing to be lost by seeing what we have in bayless and Dante tight now, and if we could claver freeland and koponen

Well, making the playoffs still matters to most fans and the players, and the ticket revenue from the playoffs matters to the owner. Are you suggesting giving up on the season already?

 

[maxiep]

I wish I would have been able to watch the game to make my own determination about what went on, but there's an awful lot of noise in a single sample of +/- for it to mean anything at all ... and unadjusted +/- is particularly messy.

I would say to trust your eyes last night over a stat that probably ought not to be included in box scores.

Bayless had a stretch in the 2nd quarter where he made three bad plays in a row (turnover, rolling under the screen and then leaving his man who hit an open three, then an ill advised drive and badly missed shot). It was a typical beta situation--Bayless was high and Blake was low. Bayless did a lot of things to help us win, but also a bunch of mistakes. Blake didn't do much to help us win that showed up on the stat sheet, but didn't do a lot of things to help us lose. In fact, I thought his boxing out on the boards last night was really good.

I would rather play Bayless than Blake, because I think with time he'll become really good and this season is now all about development for me. However, I can understand why the coaching staff made the decision they did. Bayless was also fouling at an Oden-like clip, which also limited his minutes.

 

[maxiep]

Well, making the playoffs still matters to most fans and the players, and the ticket revenue from the playoffs matters to the owner. Are you suggesting giving up on the season already?

I think changing the focus from a championship run to developing our young players to see what we have is the smart move.

 

[hasoos]

I'd love to agree with you, but the vibe of the team is different. Last year we were five fingers working together that created a fist. Now we're five fingers working independently that creates a girl slap.

The body language of this team is terrible. We're not communicating, we're not working, we've lost our mojo and I think we're on the verge of mailing the season in. I don't think this is a particularly strong-willed team, and I think they're comfortable with making the excuse that there are just too many injuries and their date with destiny will have to wait another year.

The problem with your statements is that you fail to look at what other players did during the same periods. The main reason that Portland was down so big was Miller had 4 turnovers, Roy had 5 and Joel had 3. Most of those Miller turnovers, were why he was in the game with Bayless. +/- has a lot more to do with the unit you are in with, than necessarily an individuals play.

There is no way Portland would have been within single digits without Bayless. Flat out.

 

[maxiep]

The problem with your statements is that you fail to look at what other players did during the same periods. The main reason that Portland was down so big was Miller had 4 turnovers, Roy had 5 and Joel had 3. Most of those Miller turnovers, were why he was in the game with Bayless. +/- has a lot more to do with the unit you are in with, than necessarily an individuals play.

There is no way Portland would have been within single digits without Bayless. Flat out.

My point is that the comeback was fool's gold. The Knicks took their foot off the gas. Again, I liked what Bayless brought and I'd like to see him get more minutes. I don't know how many more times I have to repeat myself. However, pretending the coaches don't see it as well is simply ignorance. Clearly, they saw something in the matchups that caused them to play Blake more minutes. This loss wasn't on Blake and the comeback wasn't on Bayless. It was a stem to stern ass kicking at MSG, from Roy to Cunningham.

 

[hasoos]

My point is that the comeback was fool's gold. The Knicks took their foot off the gas. Again, I liked what Bayless brought and I'd like to see him get more minutes. I don't know how many more times I have to repeat myself. However, pretending the coaches don't see it as well is simply ignorance. Clearly, they saw something in the matchups that caused them to play Blake more minutes. This loss wasn't on Blake and the comeback wasn't on Bayless. It was a stem to stern ass kicking at MSG, from Roy to Cunningham.

I disagree. The Knicks blow leads all the time. Teams that play a Mike D'Antoni running system blow leads as fast as they get them. Just like they did in Phoenix. Just like Golden State does. Just like Denver used to do before they got Billups.

 

[PapaG]

I think changing the focus from a championship run to developing our young players to see what we have is the smart move.

I have a feeling that the players would disagree with you. I hope they haven't given up in the season, like some posters here seem to be advocating.

 

[SpanishFly]

My point is that the comeback was fool's gold. The Knicks took their foot off the gas. Again, I liked what Bayless brought and I'd like to see him get more minutes. I don't know how many more times I have to repeat myself. However, pretending the coaches don't see it as well is simply ignorance. Clearly, they saw something in the matchups that caused them to play Blake more minutes. This loss wasn't on Blake and the comeback wasn't on Bayless. It was a stem to stern ass kicking at MSG, from Roy to Cunningham.

One thing form the your comments stand out to me and it is regards to the following; "However, pretending the coaches don't see it as well is simply ignorance. Clearly, they saw something in the matchups that caused them to play Blake more minutes."

What is "ignorant" IMO is giving this much credit to the coaches - they don't dererve it! They should be fired.

 

[hasoos]

One thing form the your comments stand out to me and it is regards to the following; "However, pretending the coaches don't see it as well is simply ignorance. Clearly, they saw something in the matchups that caused them to play Blake more minutes."

What is "ignorant" IMO is giving this much credit to the coaches - they don't dererve it! They should be fired.

Yea, they see the invisible "MORON" tattoos across all the coaches foreheads. We can only see them if we have the glasses from "They live" on.

 

[Kaydow]

I'd love to agree with you, but the vibe of the team is different. Last year we were five fingers working together that created a fist. Now we're five fingers working independently that creates a girl slap.

The body language of this team is terrible. We're not communicating, we're not working, we've lost our mojo and I think we're on the verge of mailing the season in. I don't think this is a particularly strong-willed team, and I think they're comfortable with making the excuse that there are just too many injuries and their date with destiny will have to wait another year.

I'm so tempted to agree with you, but I think we need to see more. Our body language IS terrible right now. But I'm not ready to say they are going to quit/mail the season in. Last season, we lost 4-5 games at the beginning of December. Started with a blowout loss at Boston that saw a tie game blown open with a 21-0 Celtic run. They got a miracle 3 from Blake to win @ Toronto the next game. Then came the Hedo bank shot loss at Orlando, where we blew an 8 point lead in the last minute. Followed by a lifeless blowout loss at Utah. Then we come home and Blake misses 17 FT's in the last 30 seconds and we lose to the Clippers at home. Talk about bad body language. We really thought that was it - that the team's fragile psyche was irreversibly damaged.

Backs against the wall, they came back and blewout Sac, then Roy scores 52 in a win vs the Suns on national TV (game of the year) So now we're back on track right? Wrong. Roy pulls his hammy at the end of December right before the team plays it's toughest stretch of the season. Boston, New Orleans, at Lakers, & Detroit (combined 94-29 at the time we played them) And without Brandon they somehow went 2-2.

My point? The team looked just as inept and just as lifeless at times last season. So many games we came out flat and were down by 20 points in the 2nd quarter. No hustle, no sense of urgency, and bad body language. But they kept battling, and everytime it looked like they were headed for a tailspin they pulled out of it. Let's see what happens in the next 2 months. Maybe Roy & Lamarcus start playing like circa 2008-9 again. Maybe Pendegraph gives us some needed physicality off the bench. Maybe Batum comes back and helps tighten up this terrible excuse for perimeter defense. Maybe Bayless emerges. Maybe there is a trade. A couple of good things happen and they could be right back in form. I'm not ready to call these guys quitters, even though I'm angry they appear to be sleepwalking at times. One thing is for sure - the character of this team is being tested like never before. It's fascinating - I have no idea if they are going to win 35 games or 55. We get to find out what this team is made of in the next 4 months.

 

[maxiep]

I have a feeling that the players would disagree with you. I hope they haven't given up in the season, like some posters here seem to be advocating.

Does their play as of late demonstrate they disagree with me? We've been down double digits in our last five games. We quit against MEM, UTA and NY. The body language on this team is terrible. We're now hearing excuses.

There's a difference on giving up on the season and playing your youngsters to see what you have. Less Blake, more Bayless. Less Howard, more Cunningham. Play Webster 25-30 mpg. That's all I'm saying.

 

[maxiep]

One thing form the your comments stand out to me and it is regards to the following; "However, pretending the coaches don't see it as well is simply ignorance. Clearly, they saw something in the matchups that caused them to play Blake more minutes."

What is "ignorant" IMO is giving this much credit to the coaches - they don't dererve it! They should be fired.

Okay. Who do you replace them with?

 

[PapaG]

Does their play as of late demonstrate they disagree with me? We've been down double digits in our last five games. We quit against MEM, UTA and NY. The body language on this team is terrible. We're now hearing excuses.

There's a difference on giving up on the season and playing your youngsters to see what you have. Less Blake, more Bayless. Less Howard, more Cunningham. Play Webster 25-30 mpg. That's all I'm saying.

I'd like to see the team try to stay somewhat competitive until Batum/Rudy/possibly Outlaw return early next year. I see your point, but I want to give the team a few games to find its footing after losing so many key players, with the very large addition of Oden to that list.

 

[maxiep]

I'm so tempted to agree with you, but I think we need to see more. Our body language IS terrible right now. But I'm not ready to say they are going to quit/mail the season in. Last season, we lost 4-5 games at the beginning of December. Started with a blowout loss at Boston that saw a tie game blown open with a 21-0 Celtic run. They got a miracle 3 from Blake to win @ Toronto the next game. Then came the Hedo bank shot loss at Orlando, where we blew an 8 point lead in the last minute. Followed by a lifeless blowout loss at Utah. Then we come home and Blake misses 17 FT's in the last 30 seconds and we lose to the Clippers at home. Talk about bad body language. We really thought that was it - that the team's fragile psyche was irreversibly damaged.

Backs against the wall, they came back and blewout Sac, then Roy scores 52 in a win vs the Suns on national TV (game of the year) So now we're back on track right? Wrong. Roy pulls his hammy at the end of December right before the team plays it's toughest stretch of the season. Boston, New Orleans, at Lakers, & Detroit (combined 94-29 at the time we played them) And without Brandon they somehow went 2-2.

My point? The team looked just as inept and just as lifeless at times last season. So many games we came out flat and were down by 20 points in the 2nd quarter. No hustle, no sense of urgency, and bad body language. But they kept battling, and everytime it looked like they were headed for a tailspin they pulled out of it. Let's see what happens in the next 2 months. Maybe Roy & Lamarcus start playing like circa 2008-9 again. Maybe Pendegraph gives us some needed physicality off the bench. Maybe Batum comes back and helps tighten up this terrible excuse for perimeter defense. Maybe Bayless emerges. Maybe there is a trade. A couple of good things happen and they could be right back in form. I'm not ready to call these guys quitters, even though I'm angry they appear to be sleepwalking at times. One thing is for sure - the character of this team is being tested like never before. It's fascinating - I have no idea if they are going to win 35 games or 55. We get to find out what this team is made of in the next 4 months.

I hope it's just temporary. I think Oden going down was the straw that broke the camel's back with this team. They've been pointing fingers since Roy vetoed starting Miller. This team needs to be slapped around a bit so they stop believing their own press. Roy needs to miss an All Star game so he focuses on what's important. Aldridge needs to stop playing Rasheed and start banging. Joel needs to care just a little bit. Martell needs a lobotomy so he can just play.

At the point of the Houston game, there was one player in the regular rotation playing well: Greg Oden. Every other player was sucking eggs: Roy, Aldridge, Blake, Miller, Rudy, Webster, Joel. Right now, I would argue only Bayless, Howard and Cunningham are playing to their abilities, and that's not going to get it done.

 

[maxiep]

I'd like to see the team try to stay somewhat competitive until Batum/Rudy/possibly Outlaw return early next year. I see your point, but I want to give the team a few games to find its footing after losing so many key players, with the very large addition of Oden to that list.

I think that team can be competitive. Roy and LMA are stll near All-Star level players.

 

[hasoos]

I think that team can be competitive. Roy and LMA are stll near All-Star level players.

I disagree. I don't think either of them have been all star level players all season. I would go so far as to say that this season, James Hardin of OKC is actually playing better at SG than Roy is. He didn't get into the rotation until recently, but he is playing very well. So that being said, Roy might be the 3rd best SG in the west. Aldridge is way down the totem pole at PF. Right now Boozer and Nowitzki have that locked up, and it isn't even close.