Merged: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion

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Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

I do not like Carter on this roster for the following reasons:

1. He is a SG first.
2. He plays the same position as Roy.
3. He can be a diva.

I am not wetting myself at the thought of Hedo - but I think he fits this roster better than VC.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

Great teams have a core and add role players. Hedo is not core, but he is a great role player. The old Lakers had Kareem, Magic and Worthy and then had Norm Nixon and Byron Scott as the PGs. Mychael Thompson was the 6th man for a while, after Michael Cooper.

That is what KP is doing. In KP we trust.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

andalusian said:
I do not like Carter on this roster for the following reasons:

1. He is a SG first.
2. He plays the same position as Roy.
3. He can be a diva.

I am not wetting myself at the thought of Hedo - but I think he fits this roster better than VC.
Click to expand...

#2 is based on #1, and I don't think #1 is accurate. Carter would be just fine at the small forward position. Saying he's a "SG first" when he's played so much small forward over his career isn't useful or, IMO, true.

#3 is true of any player as good as Carter. He hasn't been a problem for any of his teams recently, so I wouldn't be worried about that.

It seems like a pretty weak list of reasons to justify passing on such a superior player to Hedo.

Ed O.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion

Ed O said:
Personally, and I don't want to sound like a broken record, here is what I think:

-- I think that Hedo will make us better. He is a better player than Batum right now, and he will provide experience and depth to the team... in other words, Hedo is better than nothing
-- I think that Carter would have made us significantly better than Hedo will. Carter is an incredible offensive weapon and an overall better player
-- In the long run, I think taking on Carter's shorter contract would make more sense than signing Hedo to five years. I expect Batum to surpass Hedo in the next three years and he would have been able to step in for Vince if Portland declined to pick up Vince's third year.

I wish I were excited by the acquisition of Turkoglu. After looking at the stats and knowing how inconsistent he is, I just am not.
Click to expand...

I agree with your thoughts. If Portland gets Turkoglu, I'll be glad that at least the cap space was cashed in for a useful player that helps Portland, but I will still be left wishing that it could have landed a better player.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

Ed O said:
#2 is based on #1, and I don't think #1 is accurate. Carter would be just fine at the small forward position. Saying he's a "SG first" when he's played so much small forward over his career isn't useful or, IMO, true.

#3 is true of any player as good as Carter. He hasn't been a problem for any of his teams recently, so I wouldn't be worried about that.

It seems like a pretty weak list of reasons to justify passing on such a superior player to Hedo.

Ed O.
Click to expand...

Perhaps the reason is because now the assets used to acquire Carter can be used to acquire a PG like Miller or Kidd.

Yeah, VC is a better player than Turkoglu, but would his impact be the same as Turkoglu AND Miller? (Example PG)
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

B-Roy said:
Perhaps the reason is because now the assets used to acquire Carter can be used to acquire a PG like Miller or Kidd.

Yeah, VC is a better player than Turkoglu, but would his impact be the same as Turkoglu AND Miller? (Example PG)
Click to expand...

I hope this is the case... I prefer upgrades at both spots to having traded for VC, and am holding out hope that we're going to do something on the PG front.

I just am comparing Hedo signing as a FA to trading cap space to get Carter. I know I might be commenting prematurely and I might be underestimating the cost to get VC (although given what they got from Orlando (nothing), I probably am not).

Ed O.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

Ed O said:
I hope this is the case... I prefer upgrades at both spots, and am holding out hope that we're going to do something on the PG front.

I just am comparing Hedo signing as a FA to trading cap space to get Carter. I know I might be commenting prematurely and I might be underestimating the cost to get VC (although given what they got from Orlando (nothing), I probably am not).

Ed O.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say nothing....Courtney Lee as a prospect is about as good as Batum.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

KP and company like big teams. VC is a 6-6 guy. Hedo is 6-10. Hedo works better as a SF in this kind of a team than VC does. Yes, you can play VC or Roy at SF - but they are most effective in their natural position as SG.

And - VC being a diva rumors were also heard when Jason Kidd was there - and was one of the reasons quoted for Kidd wanting to move out.

A proper team balance will not have too many chiefs, Hedo is a fantastic role player, offers extra size and does not have VC's reputation for quitting when things do not go his way.

Is VC a better player? No doubt. Is he a better fit with Portland's roster and core? I do not think so. Talent trumps everything when you do not have enough of it - but once you do - you go for fit - and VC, quite frankly, does not sound like the right fit.

I am willing to bet that Orlando is in for some rude awakening next year. Losing their size advantage (what got them to kick the Cavs), losing their backup center, I do not think Orlando makes it to the finals next year.

Even if VC is twice the player Hedo is (which I do not think he is) - you are getting a guy that fits better and there is less of a chance for half amazing, half a season (in effort, at least).
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

B-Roy said:
I wouldn't say nothing....Courtney Lee as a prospect is about as good as Batum.
Click to expand...

Courtney Lee is a far worse prospect. He's 3+ years older than Batum and was worse last season.

Lee (age 23 season): 10.8 PER
Batum (age 20 season): 12.9 PER

Unless Batum doesn't improve at all over his next three years, he's likely to be a much better player in his prime.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

B-Roy said:
I wouldn't say nothing....Courtney Lee as a prospect is about as good as Batum.
Click to expand...

I would disagree. Courtney Lee was terrible last year and he was old for a rookie.

Of course, maybe the Nets agree with you and they were asking for Batum last year as part of the VC trade. If so? I'm glad we didn't do it. I'd rather have Hedo and Batum than VC, I think...

Ed O.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

Ed O said:
I hope this is the case... I prefer upgrades at both spots to having traded for VC, and am holding out hope that we're going to do something on the PG front.

I just am comparing Hedo signing as a FA to trading cap space to get Carter. I know I might be commenting prematurely and I might be underestimating the cost to get VC (although given what they got from Orlando (nothing), I probably am not).

Ed O.
Click to expand...

They received Courtney Lee on a rookie deal and a crapload of cap space in 2010. It was a good trade for a team that won only 34 games with Carter.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

PapaG said:
They received Courtney Lee on a rookie deal and a crapload of cap space in 2010. It was a good trade for a team that won only 34 games with Carter.
Click to expand...

They would have got a crapload of cap space in 2009 in a deal with Portland... and (as I outlined above) I don't consider Courtney Lee to be a positive addition in a deal.

Ed O.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

Ed O said:
I would disagree. Courtney Lee was terrible last year and he was old for a rookie.

Of course, maybe the Nets agree with you and they were asking for Batum last year as part of the VC trade. If so? I'm glad we didn't do it. I'd rather have Hedo and Batum than VC, I think...

Ed O.
Click to expand...

He shot 45% from the field, 40% from 3PT, and averaged 8.4 ppg on a very good team. Saying he was "terrible" is disingenuous. A "terrible" PER, sure, but he was asked to shoot, and he did that very well.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

Ed O said:
They would have got a crapload of cap space in 2009 in a deal with Portland... and (as I outlined above) I don't consider Courtney Lee to be a positive addition in a deal.

Ed O.
Click to expand...

For what? So they could get Hedo? The 2010 class is much, much better than 2009. Franchise players versus good players, and having the cap flexibility as the economy continues to struggle will be even more of a plus next year at the trade deadline. Again, the Nets won 34 games with Vince Carter in the East. It's not like they were on the verge of a title.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

PapaG said:
For what? So they could get Hedo? The 2010 class is much, much better than 2009. Franchise players versus good players, and having the cap flexibility as the economy continues to struggle will be even more of a plus next year at the trade deadline. Again, the Nets won 34 games with Vince Carter in the East. It's not like they were on the verge of a title.
Click to expand...

I agree with this.

Cap space in 2010 will be extremely valuable. Cap space in 2009 is only valuable to teams that won't be able to have any space in 2010.

The free agent pool in 2010 is sick. This years free agent pool is sad.

You know it's pathetic when Hedo is far and away the best free agent. He wouldn't be in the top 10 next year.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion

Ed O said:
Personally, and I don't want to sound like a broken record, here is what I think:

-- I think that Hedo will make us better. He is a better player than Batum right now, and he will provide experience and depth to the team... in other words, Hedo is better than nothing
-- I think that Carter would have made us significantly better than Hedo will. Carter is an incredible offensive weapon and an overall better player
-- In the long run, I think taking on Carter's shorter contract would make more sense than signing Hedo to five years. I expect Batum to surpass Hedo in the next three years and he would have been able to step in for Vince if Portland declined to pick up Vince's third year.

I wish I were excited by the acquisition of Turkoglu. After looking at the stats and knowing how inconsistent he is, I just am not.

Ed O.
Click to expand...

Ok, let's parse this out a bit.

With Turk the FA target, did KP make a mistake in not trading for Vince Carter at the trade deadline - for the reported RLEC for Vince and picks?

Vince is making a lot more money than Turk will get over the next couple of seasons. I think in terms of salary issues that the team would have had to cut at least one of Blake/Outlaw to reduce the overall team salary. Meaning that trading for Vince meant Vince and no other new big(ish), long salary coming in.

On the other hand, if we can obtain Turk for ~$8mil starting salary, I think the team will be willing to flip Blake/Outlaw for similar money several more years out. We are in a position to do sign-and-trades for an Andre Miller or a trade for Kirk Hinrich.

It is Vince at $15mil per, or Turk and PG at $16 or $17mil per.

IF the Blazers can get that done, I prefer that to Vince.

Some other discussion points:

Vince is 2/3. The Blazers already have a lot of depth at those positions. Guys that can cover the 2: Roy, Rudy, Batum, Blake, Bayless, Webster. Guys that can cover the 3: Roy, Batum, Webster, Outlaw.

Turk is a 3/4. Guys that can play the 4: LaMarcus, Outlaw.

Turk is excellent at the post entry pass.

Turk is a better passer than Vince.

Turk is a better defender than Vince.

Turk does not have a prima-donna reputation.

Turk has a proven ability to contribute to a winning team while not being the number 1 scoring option.

Yes, there is no doubt that Vince is the better player, more explosive scorer, and better shooter. But, would he be the better fit? I think that is open to some question.

If we just wanted an explosive scorer, wouldn't Ben Gordon have been a better target? Younger player that could play the 1 on defense next to Roy is a better "fit" for an explosive scorer on our team than a 33 year old who most recently played the same position as our best player.

This lineup:
Gordon, Roy, Batum, LaMarcus, Oden
look better to me than this:
Blake, Roy, Carter, LaMarcus, Oden.

This lineup looks better too, assuming we can get it:
Hinrich/Miller, Roy, Turkoglu, LaMarcus, Oden
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

My god. Everyone cries all year about our guards being unable/unwilling to run a side pick and roll with Oden all year and now we have a point forward in our sights who is one of the best in the NBA at running this exact play and now people want to quibble over a contract that might be somewhere in the range of 10 million per year? It might be slightly overpaying, but point to one other free agent(s) at a position of need who is as likely to fit as well?

I'm not exactly wetting myself with anticipation over the prospect of signing him, but I think this along with another move to add a slight upgrade at the point guard spot (Miller or Hinrich spring to mind) through a sign and trade pushes this team into serious title contention for a at least a few years to come and hopefully young guys like Bayless and Batum are ready to provide meaningful minutes as starters when Miller/Hinrich and Hedo's star starts to fade.

Besides, title contention is still going to hinge far more on the level of play Roy, Aldridge and Oden provide than whatever other roster moves are made this season and future seasons, it's getting solid B-B+ players with experience to fill roles -- as KP is apparently trying to do this off-season -- that makes me feel satisfied with the idea of acquiring a guy like Hedo, Miller, Hinrich, etc.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

PapaG said:
He shot 45% from the field, 40% from 3PT, and averaged 8.4 ppg on a very good team. Saying he was "terrible" is disingenuous. A "terrible" PER, sure, but he was asked to shoot, and he did that very well.
Click to expand...

He was asked to shoot, shot well, and yet only scored 8.4 ppg... while racking up a terrible PER.

What does that tell you? It tells ME that he just stood around and didn't contribute at all unless the ball was in his hands.

Perhaps "terrible" was an overstatement, but as a 23 year-old I would expect more if he were a good prospect.

Ed O.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

Ed O said:
He was asked to shoot, shot well, and yet only scored 8.4 ppg... while racking up a terrible PER.

What does that tell you? It tells ME that he just stood around and didn't contribute at all unless the ball was in his hands.

Perhaps "terrible" was an overstatement, but as a 23 year-old I would expect more if he were a good prospect.

Ed O.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying Lee was the key part of the deal. The 2010 cap space could turn around the Nets. 2009 cap space would have made them worse than they were with Carter, unless Turkoglu or Ariza are considered upgrades over Vince Carter and (allegedly) two #1 picks. The alleged RLEC/VC + two #1 picks made no sense to me at the time for New Jersey, and I still don't think it was ever seriously offered.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion

Masbee said:
It is Vince at $15mil per, or Turk and PG at $16 or $17mil per.

IF the Blazers can get that done, I prefer that to Vince.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

Turk is a better passer than Vince.
Click to expand...

I don't think that this is true. Carter is an excellent passer. Hedo is a good passer for someone his size, but Carter is a better passer in absolute terms IMO.

Hedo has had two straight 22+ assist percentage years, but his career is only a shade over 16, and Carter's been over 25 four of the last six years, with his down years (last year 23.7 and 05-06's 24.4) each being higher than Hedo's career high.

Turk does not have a prima-donna reputation.
Click to expand...

I don't think that this is a problem... first of all, a reputation is different from reality, and secondly... what team has won an NBA championship without a primadonna attitude? Primadonnas get more respect from opponents and referees and almost every top player in the NBA has a less-than-humble character.

Yes, there is no doubt that Vince is the better player, more explosive scorer, and better shooter. But, would he be the better fit? I think that is open to some question.

If we just wanted an explosive scorer, wouldn't Ben Gordon have been a better target? Younger player that could play the 1 on defense next to Roy is a better "fit" for an explosive scorer on our team than a 33 year old who most recently played the same position as our best player.

This lineup:
Gordon, Roy, Batum, LaMarcus, Oden
look better to me than this:
Blake, Roy, Carter, LaMarcus, Oden.
Click to expand...

Really? I'd definitely prefer the latter. Carter would have reshaped this team and how teams defend Brandon Roy in a way that Gordon just would not.

A bigger deal favoring Vince rather than Ben is that Carter only would have the Blazers on the hook for two seasons... it would be great to get out from under his contract soon after the Blazers start paying the big three the big bucks they will get.

With Gordon, as with Hedo, there will be five year contracts, rather than two, and financially that makes less sense.

This lineup looks better too, assuming we can get it:
Hinrich/Miller, Roy, Turkoglu, LaMarcus, Oden
Click to expand...

I agree that that is better than any of the other options we've been discussing... I just lack confidence we'll be able to procure a PG upgrade. Hopefully... :)

Ed O.
 
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Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

PapaG said:
I'm not saying Lee was the key part of the deal. The 2010 cap space could turn around the Nets. 2009 cap space would have made them worse than they were with Carter, unless Turkoglu or Ariza are considered upgrades over Vince Carter and (allegedly) two #1 picks. The alleged RLEC/VC + two #1 picks made no sense to me at the time for New Jersey, and I still don't think it was ever seriously offered.
Click to expand...

2009 cap space can be rolled over into 2010 cap space... it's not like it goes away or they had to have used it this year.

The Nets could have just spent less on their team this year than they otherwise will be and saved their ownership millions (maybe lots of millions) of money now.

Alternatively, they could sign a player or two to a big one year deal and let him walk at the end of the season... or try to turn around and trade him for an expiring contract and other value after December.

Either way, they have 2010 cap space.

Ed O.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

Ed O said:
2009 cap space can be rolled over into 2010 cap space... it's not like it goes away or they had to have used it this year.

The Nets could have just spent less on their team this year than they otherwise will be and saved their ownership millions (maybe lots of millions) of money now.

Alternatively, they could sign a player or two to a big one year deal and let him walk at the end of the season... or try to turn around and trade him for an expiring contract and other value after December.

Either way, they have 2010 cap space.

Ed O.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure the money saved would offset the lack of attendance in a crippled economy, and they didn't lose their next two #1 picks this way. Again, I don't think that the alleged deal has anything to do with reality.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

PapaG said:
I'm not sure the money saved would offset the lack of attendance in a crippled economy,
Click to expand...

You think that their attendance will remain stable because of Courtney Lee and Skip to my Lou? Because the Nets have MORE salary this year than they would have if they had acquired the RLEC, and I don't think any of those guys are (a) going to help them win that much, or (b) draw fans.

The Nets were going to see an attendance dip after trading VC either way. I think they'd be better off not paying for 2009's salaries of expiring stiffs and Lee.

and they didn't lose their next two #1 picks this way. Again, I don't think that the alleged deal has anything to do with reality.
Click to expand...

I'm not really considering the picks here. I'm just saying that Portland could have given up the same level of nothing that Orlando did.

Ed O.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

At this point I say stick with Batum at SF and just get Andre Miller. I feel like McMillan is more behind the Turk deal and KP is just trying to get the player his coach wants. McMillan starting Rudy in game 6 against the Rockets makes me believe this. Nate wants more scoring when his team still can't play good, consistent defense.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

The David Lee-Portland connection is so weird. It makes almost no sense, and yet it keeps popping back up.

I'd love to see us get him just so I could see what would happen next. :)

Ed O.
 
Re: Quick reports talks with Hedo's agent / Hedo Turkoglu discussion (MERGED)

Too lazy to browse through this.

Toronto is rumored to be building up a $60 million offer for Hedo.
 
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