Merged: WTF?! Stern trying to remove emotion from games

[Minstrel]

Re: WTF?! Stern trying to remove emotion from games

Thats if you think referees care about controlling the outcome of a game. I don't think David Stern is some Vince McMahon clone like most around here.

I don't think Stern is fixing games. I think Stern has marketed the NBA for a few decades now as a star-driven league and has a vested interest in stars staying in the game and not being held back by rules from doing spectacular things. So while I don't think he arranges for certain teams to win or do well, I think it's extremely plausible that the referees are encouraged to enforce a separate set of rules standards for the stars as opposed to everyone else.

 

[MickZagger]

Re: WTF?! Stern trying to remove emotion from games

I don't think Stern is fixing games. I think Stern has marketed the NBA for a few decades now as a star-driven league and has a vested interest in stars staying in the game and not being held back by rules from doing spectacular things. So while I don't think he arranges for certain teams to win or do well, I think it's extremely plausible that the referees are encouraged to enforce a separate set of rules standards for the stars as opposed to everyone else.

I'm not arguing that superstars don't get calls from the referees. But, refs certainly don't control outcomes of games and manipulate games to get in line with the point spread like Mr. Selfdestruct believes.

 

[MrSelfDestruct]

Re: WTF?! Stern trying to remove emotion from games

I don't let isolated incidents taint my opinion of the league.

If you think the league is phony-baloni and the refs control the outcomes, why do you even bother watching?

I never said it was phony. I just said that it's possible that Donaghy isn't an isolated incident. To claim with absolute certainty that it was isolated is naive.

I'm not arguing that superstars don't get calls from the referees. But, refs certainly don't control outcomes of games and manipulate games to get in line with the point spread like Mr. Selfdestruct believes.

Game 6 of the 2002 NBA WCF says hi. NBA referees have more influence on the outcome of the game than any other referees in pro-sports.

 

[MrSelfDestruct]

Re: WTF?! Stern trying to remove emotion from games

I still don't understand this mindset. If they created a new rule that said players with black shoes will be ejected immediately after the tipoff if the step on the floor with a black shoe. Do you think the refs could somehow influence the game more by choosing when to enforce that? Do they choose to ignore Kobe and Wade's black shoes all game long and then eject Adam Morrison when he comes in with his on?

There's no discretion here with these rules. You either slap your arm or you don't. You either walk towards a ref with your palms up or you walk back up the court. You either come at a ref jawing about a no-call or you walk away. How can Kobe walk at a ref and complain without this immediately taking effect and blowing the whistle? It can't any more than wearing black shoes in my earlier example.

And how does this not affect the superstars? The only guys that try and pull this off are all-stars. When's the last time Adam Morrison drove to the basket and ran at a ref complaining? Can anyone find even one Youtube of a non-allstar that complained about a non-call for a foul?

I ask this honestly: Do you think the verbage of "Aggressive" could be left to interpretation?

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

Re: WTF?! Stern trying to remove emotion from games

I ask this honestly: Do you think the verbage of "Aggressive" could be left to interpretation?

Certainly in and of itself it is vague. But then that was the general preface of the rule, they do clarify in giving an example to use as a guideline in giving an aggressive punch in the air in frustration. So it isn't like anyone is going to flop or yell "aarrrgggh" as they are taking a shot and then get called as "aggressive".

You're right that maybe someone will get called for a foul and look at a ref and grab their crotch as a gesture. Is that aggressive? Probably not, but it is meeting the SPIRIT of this rule and will likely be called because you are disrespecting the authority of the call. You could stare at a ref like Sheed and that might be borderline "aggressive" but nobody would complain that he wasn't showing up the ref.

If Kobe lowers his eyebrows and glances and the ref and doesn't get a call, well, it wasn't that aggressive was it. If he comes at a ref with his hands in the air, it is a "T" by the definition of the rule and the ref has no choice, so the rule will be doing it's job since Kobe is one of only 10 guys in the NBA that will ever walk towards a ref with his hands in the air.

 

[MickZagger]

Re: WTF?! Stern trying to remove emotion from games

I never said it was phony. I just said that it's possible that Donaghy isn't an isolated incident. To claim with absolute certainty that it was isolated is naive.




Game 6 of the 2002 NBA WCF says hi. NBA referees have more influence on the outcome of the game than any other referees in pro-sports.

Depends on your prospective. I'm sure it was completely fair if you don't hate the Lakers.

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

Re: WTF?! Stern trying to remove emotion from games

Some of you say you like this evil as long as it's applied equally, e.g. to superstars and coaches as much as to ordinary players.

Okay, sure, and how about fans? To be consistent, how about giving the boot to any fan who makes a fist pump, or raises his arms after a call?

To be really consistent about our war with human nature, how about on message boards? I have heard that once upon a time on BBB, they discouraged any non-childlike emotions. Or is this a case of, crack down on others but not on yourself?

Now you're just going over-the-top there.

Let's not forget that at the end of the day this is still a business where owners own the rights to control what their employee do and how they do it. The fans are the ones who pay the owners and dictate how they run their business based on a democratic society. So the customer at the end of the day are the stakeholders at the end of the day with what they want the owners to do with their resources in order to satistify their entertainment needs, and the players are those resources owned and managed by the owners. If they say bend over and lick yourself because the customers want to see it, they have a choice to lick themselves or find another profession. End of story.

So the fans tell the owners what they want. We want to see some unbiased officiating and no more having Kobe and Wade stare at an official when they want to try and imtimidate them into blowing their whistle, then the owners are forced to make a rule like this.

The rule obviously doesn't extend to the fans as they are the ones paying to watch these resources expend themselves in the name of their entertainment and for getting the owners rich. That is the business model. Not much different than the Roman Gladiators of old. Nobody told the fans in the crowd they couldn't chant "die, die, die" because they were the paying customer who paid the slave masters their coin for the games. That's just life, it hasn't changed in over 2,000 years, so deal with it.

 

[jlprk]

Re: WTF?! Stern trying to remove emotion from games

The fans aren't behind this change. Stern is. If Stern cared about anyone but himself, he'd initiate a process in which the fans and players have input.

As for it being a business, it's a business not owned by Stern. I don't recall the owners raising this as an issue at their meetings, do you? Of course not. They are just as blindsided by this as we are.

There's also a union that he has ignored. This is purely Stern's personal opinion, with his lapdog Stu Jackass barking for him. They have not solicited opinions from owners, players, union, or--fans.

Same thing happened with the plastic ball and several other dictatorial moves by Stern. When you've held the same job for a quarter-century, you get this way. We are way overdue for someone new.

I assume you read the TrueHoop article I cited, so I didn't repeat the things that are in it with which I agree.

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: WTF?! Stern trying to remove emotion from games

I'm guessing these:

Those were not reactions to referee's calls. Read the whole post.

 

[BlayZa]

Re: WTF?! Stern trying to remove emotion from games

pity sheed retired, coulda hit at least 80 this coming season

 

[Targus]

NBA says No Mas to complaining...

Wish this was on the books when Rasheed was in Portland. Man, I got tired of that dude and his attitude. What Blazer does this hurt the most? What NBA player (besides Kobe) does this hurt?

"Referees have been instructed to call a technical for:

• Players making aggressive gestures, such as air punches, anywhere on the court.

• Demonstrative disagreement, such as when a player incredulously raises his hands, or smacks his own arm to demonstrate how he was fouled.

• Running directly at an official to complain about a call.

• Excessive inquiries about a call, even in a civilized tone."

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Re: NBA says No Mas to complaining...

That's all well and good, and won't be much enforced after pre-season. But when are they going to do something about flopping??? To the players who constantly flop and the refs who knowingly call the flops? I'd like to see both players and officials suspended fur a game at a time whe the player flops or a ref rewards a star play for flopping.

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

Re: NBA says No Mas to complaining...

This should be merged with the 70 post thread that was an ongoing discussion about it yesterday when it was current news.

http://sportstwo.com/threads/170431-WTF-!-Stern-trying-to-remove-emotion-from-games

 

[Targus]

Re: NBA says No Mas to complaining...

Sorry. I don't live here.

Bill Laimbeer never flopped!

 

[Idog1976]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5609817&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines



Seriously, wtf. One of the reasons basketball (hell, any sport) is so popular, is because you can see emotion from players and relate to their joys and sorrows. Is Stern trying to create robots?

Sounds like control freak Sith Lord Stern wants the refs to have MORE control over game outcomes. Classic Stern ruining the game of Basketball. Can't he die or retire or something already?!?!?

 

[Idog1976]

Re: WTF?! Stern trying to remove emotion from games

I honestly don't think with the way they worded this that they can possibly selectively enforce it or leave the superstars out of the enforcement.

To me a foul is very subjective, as where coming off the bench during a fight or slashing a finger across your throat is very cut-and-dry. You can have video evidence that it happened and suspend or enforce the act.

You can't be LeBron or Kobe and start walking towards a ref with your palms up and an incredulous look on your face and not get called for this. There is no wiggle room that says "walking towards the refs with an agreesive manner" or "slapping your wrist in a manner that seems disprespectful". It says "walking towards the ref", "slapping your wrist", "complaining about being fouled". End of story. A ref would go on probation immediately if he didn't enforce a black-and-white rule against a star but did against non-stars. So get ready Miami.

Right I mean Trevor Ariza's undercut on Rudy resulted in a multi-game suspension right? Or Rondo's clothesline of Brad Miller or half a dozen other things over the years like Malone's elbows. I mean I can't point to ONE aspect of league officiating that is enforced unequally.

/sarcasm off

 

[Idog1976]

Re: WTF?! Stern trying to remove emotion from games

Fucking wow. Talk about refs deciding a game. What an utter piece of shit. Does anyone think this league has any intention of there being a level playing field?

 

[Idog1976]

Re: WTF?! Stern trying to remove emotion from games

Uh, your first one about Duncan is very different from the egregious and toss worthy actions of Rasheed and Posey. Not sure what your point was there?

 

[crandc]

I can't see this as analogous to black shoes. After all, if they (unlikely) made a rule that any player wearing black shoes gets ejected, the rule is crystal clear and it would be unmistakable who is violating it. But this rule is necessarily open to interpretation. Did the ref feel threatened? Was it excessive? Was it aggressive? Come on, you don't think reputation and status will be considered?

 

[jlprk]

These black guys have to be taught a lesson. If the ref feels threatened and sees something shiny from 100 feet away, he should shoot the player dead. Always aim for the heart, and if the public finds a mistake, tell them we need millions of dollars more for improved training. We can make this a win-win for us.

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

I can't see this as analogous to black shoes. After all, if they (unlikely) made a rule that any player wearing black shoes gets ejected, the rule is crystal clear and it would be unmistakable who is violating it. But this rule is necessarily open to interpretation. Did the ref feel threatened? Was it excessive? Was it aggressive? Come on, you don't think reputation and status will be considered?

That was precisely the point I was making. So you re-stated it very well.

While I was exaggerating the "black and white" aspect to a point, I was trying to explain that the nice aspect of this rule is it is given some very clear examples of times when it has to be followed by referees. Fouls, travelling and such have some clear aspects to them, but are very loosely regarded because they also have some wiggle-room.

In football, there is a very large difference between refs having some discretion to calling holding calls and their discretion calling an end-zone celebration or playings stepping out of bounds. Similarly, fouls have a lot of discretionary judgement calls that really allow refs to "play favorites".

These new rules use very specific examples of when a ref will have no choice but to blow the whistle (complaining about a foul or non-call by walking towards a ref and disputing the call). There's no "I'm going to let it go this time cause it's Kobe" that a ref can get away with there. You can't punch your fist into the air in an aggressive manner complaining about a foul or non-foul call. So you can't watch Kobe get called for a foul and have him turn and punch the air and have a ref swallow his whistle. The league would fall apart if it allowed refs to get away with making favorable calls on black-and-white rules like this.

 

[crandc]

Well, but of course the ref just didn't see Kobe punch his fist in the air...

 

[speeds]

Talking out of turn...that's a paddling. Looking out the window...that's a paddling. Staring at my sandals...that's a paddling. Paddling the school canoe...ooh, you better believe that's a paddling.

 

[Ed O]

Isn't this, basically, the rule in college and high school?

I know that the stakes are higher and the players are adults, but that seems like even more reason to expect a higher degree of self-control.

As the rule is written, I have no problem with the change. As long as it is reasonably consistently enforced, I think it will be good for the NBA.

Ed O.

 

[jlprk]

Usually Stern's playground, NBA.com, spins everything in his favor. But even they sound like they're against Stern on this.

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/09/24/officials.crackdown.ap/index.html

And even lapdog David Aldridge is against it.

Not Feelin' ...
1) The unmasked, unvarnished display of real emotion is one of the gazillion things that makes the NBA great to watch, both in person and on TV. The league is getting really close to legislating that out of existence. It should reconsider, and let players be real, within reason.

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/featur...tip-antione-walker/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

 

[illmatic99]

And two weeks into preseason, the changes haven't been going well.

Take a look at these:


[video=youtube;lmsdOB6J3tA]

[video=youtube;1QHdiup2Z_U]

[video=youtube;3COKTtJvq9c]

 

[Mediocre Man]

And two weeks into preseason, the changes haven't been going well.

Take a look at these:


[video=youtube;lmsdOB6J3tA]

[video=youtube;1QHdiup2Z_U]

[video=youtube;3COKTtJvq9c]

The first one was stupid. The second one was at least within the new rule, although stupid. The third one.....I am still trying to figure out what he did?

 

[illmatic99]

My fears of Stern trying to remove emotion entirely from these games have been realized. I expect this bullshit to last until December, max.

 

[BGrantFan]

My fears of Stern trying to remove emotion entirely from these games have been realized. I expect this bullshit to last until December, max.

So long as Stern doesn't fuck with the basketballs again for the sake of yielding to PETA, I can live with this minor intrusion into the game.

 

[Ed O]

The first one was stupid. The second one was at least within the new rule, although stupid. The third one.....I am still trying to figure out what he did?

The third one you can hear someone (presumably Jermaine) say, "What the fuck (something something)?"

Players need to stop yelling at the refs if they want to avoid technical fouls.

Ed O.