Meyers Leonard

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tlongII said:
He's worth $10 M per year in today's NBA.
Click to expand...

No he's not, Centers don't get paid like forwards.
Highest paid back up 5's are BB, Mozgov, Mahinmi, Plumlee's, Nards.
How many of these players are worth 17-10 mil a year?
Especially when back up Centers are available and taking minimum contracts to be on a team.

Nards makes 500k less than Nurk.
 
wizenheimer said:
Meyers doesn't really play PF though. You are what you can defend and Stotts has been pretty careful to play Meyers only when he can favorably matchup with another team's big man, almost always the slowest. If you look at the Blazers 20 most used 5 man lineups, there isn't one that Meyers appears in that doesn't have Aminu or Zach in as well, and they are the ones defending 4's and stretch-4's

it's why Meyers hardly played last season. When he did, it required Nurkic or Davis to be out on the perimeter chasing after the mobile bigs while Meyers camped in the paint defensively scowling, slow, and stupid

Olshey is such an ass as a GM...he cleared away players and 'designed' a 2nd unit that forced Stotts to use Turner and Meyers. That was the accomplishment of Olshey's off-season. Isn't it great? When the only thing done in an off-season is to try and maximize the opportunities for players the caliber of Turner and Meyers; this coming after a humiliating sweep in the playoffs. Yeah, that's some world class management; meanwhile, the clock of Dame's prime is ticking away
Click to expand...

This is a quality post! I agree that Meyers staying under the rim on defense is a problem, as he forces Zach to play out on the perimeter, that's a very solid observation.
But I like both Turner and Meyers this year, they're not our problem. Our biggest problem, and that's not a popular opinion here, is Lillard's non existant defensive game. He plays 40 minutes per game and throughout this time we're effectively playing 4 on 5 on defense
 
Blazer4ever said:
This is a quality post! I agree that Meyers staying under the rim on defense is a problem, as he forces Zach to play out on the perimeter, that's a very solid observation.
But I like both Turner and Meyers this year, they're not our problem. Our biggest problem, and that's not a popular opinion here, is Lillard's non existant defensive game. He plays 40 minutes per game and throughout this time we're effectively playing 4 on 5 on defense
Click to expand...

35.2 MPG, but who's counting? Nobody in the NBA plays 40 MPG. Anthony Davis leads the league at 36.8 MPG.

BNM
 
tlongII said:
He's worth $10 M per year in today's NBA.
Click to expand...

wut?

Meyers makes 10.6M and "today's market" paid Nurkic only 500K more than Meyers. Today's market paid Julius Randle 8.6M. It paid Javale McGee 2.4M. It paid Ed Davis 4.4M. It paid Derrick Rose 2.2M. It paid Aaron Baynes 5.5M. It paid Rudy Gay 10M. It paid Kyle O'Quinn 4.5M. It paid Brook Lopez 3.4M. It paid Luc Mbah a Moute 4.3M. And Wayne Ellington 6.2M. And Nemanja Mjelica 6.5M. And Montrezl Harrel 6M. And Noah Vonleh 1.6M. And Greg Monroe 2.2M. And Devin Harris 2.4M. And Rodney Hood 3.4M

stop me when I mention a player that isn't better than Meyers or who plays less than 13 minutes a game. Those were players signed this summer who actually represent today's market

it's true that Meyers is playing better this season...but even with that, he's still overpaid
 
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Blazer4ever said:
Our biggest problem, and that's not a popular opinion here, is Lillard's non existant defensive game. He plays 40 minutes per game and throughout this time we're effectively playing 4 on 5 on defense
Click to expand...

the reason is not a popular opinion is that nobody else is 'out there' enough to think Dame is Portland "biggest problem"

Dame's defense is not good, but.....

defensive rating:

Jake Layman 110
Evan Turner 110
Damian Lillard 112
CJ McCollum 113
Nik Stauskas 114
Seth Curry 116

defensive box plus/minus:

Damian Lillard -1.0
Seth Curry -1.5
Nik Stauskas -1.9
CJ McCollum -2.0

DRPM:

Seth Curry -0.32
Damian Lillard -1.74
CJ McCollum -2.11
Nik Stauskas -2.85

considering Dame spends most of his time matched up against other starting NBA PG's, he's not nearly as bad as the legend. Dame's defensive problem is that the GM refuses to add a solid defensive guard to help Dame out. Instead, he seems to find just the opposite. The glaring defensive weakness in Portland's starting unit is not at PG, it's at SG
 
Reep said:
Interesting to compare to Markkanen this year.

http://bkref.com/tiny/NRtM4

Leonard's WS and WS/48 are higher, but Orating and Drating are worse. What does that mean?
Click to expand...
Dude, Markkanen has played 4 games and is working his way back from an injury. It means nothing.

Edit: When I click on your link it gives career stats but you specifically said "compare to Markkanen this year" in your post.
 
wizenheimer said:
the reason is not a popular opinion is that nobody else is 'out there' enough to think Dame is Portland "biggest problem"

Dame's defense is not good, but.....

defensive rating:

Jake Layman 110
Evan Turner 110
Damian Lillard 112
CJ McCollum 113
Nik Stauskas 114
Seth Curry 116

defensive box plus/minus:

Damian Lillard -1.0
Seth Curry -1.5
Nik Stauskas -1.9
CJ McCollum -2.0

DRPM:

Seth Curry -0.32
Damian Lillard -1.74
CJ McCollum -2.11
Nik Stauskas -2.85

considering Dame spends most of his time matched up against other starting NBA PG's, he's not nearly as bad as the legend. Dame's defensive problem is that the GM refuses to add a solid defensive guard to help Dame out. Instead, he seems to find just the opposite. The glaring defensive weakness in Portland's starting unit is not at PG, it's at SG
Click to expand...
He doesnt speak stats, so no comprehende.
 
wizenheimer said:
wut?

Meyers makes 10.6M and "today's market" paid Nurkic only 500K more than Meyers. Today's market paid Julius Randle 8.6M. It paid Javale McGee 2.4M. It paid Ed Davis 4.4M. It paid Derrick Rose 2.2M. It paid Aaron Baynes 5.5M. It paid Rudy Gay 10M. It paid Kyle O'Quinn 4.5M. It paid Brook Lopez 3.4M. It paid Luc Mbah a Moute 4.3M. And Wayne Ellington 6.2M. And Nemanja Mjelica 6.5M. And Montrezl Harrel 6M. And Noah Vonleh 1.6M. And Greg Monroe 2.2M. And Devin Harris 2.4M. And Rodney Hood 3.4M

stop me when I mention a player that isn't better than Meyers or who plays less than 13 minutes a game. Those were players signed this summer who actually represent today's market

it's true that Meyers is playing better this season...but even with that, he's still overpaid
Click to expand...

Meyers’ stats are better than Miles Plumlee’s and Plumlee makes 12.5 M. Next argument please.
 
Reep said:
Interesting to compare to Markkanen this year.

http://bkref.com/tiny/NRtM4

Leonard's WS and WS/48 are higher, but Orating and Drating are worse. What does that mean?
Click to expand...

you've got a major sample size issue there. You're comparing 355 games of Meyers to 72 games of Markkanen. WS is a cumulative stat so naturally Meyers would be higher with 5 times the games. Winshare/48 is ostensibly a rate or average but it's still dependent on a team's total wins. Markkanen has only played 4 games this season because of an injury but he played for 27 win Chicago as a rookie. Meyers has played on 6 Blazer teams that have averaged about 46 wins.
That give Meyers a 1.7/1.0 advantage in the calculation. Normalizing up would give Markkanen a 128 to 101 winshare/48 advantage. Normalizing down would make it a 75 to 59 advantage

as for offensive and defensive ratings, they are too team-centric to be compared across teams and seasons, IMO, and you're going to get too much noise and skew
 
H.C. said:
No he's not, Centers don't get paid like forwards.
Highest paid back up 5's are BB, Mozgov, Mahinmi, Plumlee's, Nards.
How many of these players are worth 17-10 mil a year?
Especially when back up Centers are available and taking minimum contracts to be on a team.

Nards makes 500k less than Nurk.
Click to expand...

This is an amazing idea. Use today’s market conditions to retroactively evaluate deals completed three years ago. I really need to call my realtor and change the price I paid for my home to the 2008 value.
 
tlongII said:
Meyers’ stats are better than Miles Plumlee’s and Plumlee makes 12.5 M. Next argument please.
Click to expand...

lol

ok then..."today's NBA" and the "NBA market" resets every summer. That's the nature of the business

you just dug and found another horribly stupid contract that was signed in the insanity of the 2016 off-season, just like Crabbe's and Turner's and Leonard's (or Chandler Parsons or Mozgov or Ryan Anderson or Tyler Johnson or Kent Bazemore or Bizmack Biyombo)

collectively, GM's had rabies that summer and went insane....and even before the barrels of ink on paper were dry, those were all bad contracts. Every damn one of them. That hasn't changed halfway thru all those stupid deals. Just finding another bad contract for a player that may be performing worse than Meyers doesn't mean that Meyers suddenly has a good contract. Portland is paying nearly 11M this year, 10% of the cap, for a player who is averaging 12.6 minutes and 5.8 points

put it another way: if Meyers was the median gauge for production and salary, in order to average the 112 points Portland does currently, the payroll would have to be 205M rather than the 132M it is. And their tax bill would be several hundred million...might even approach a billion
 
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e_blazer said:
This is an amazing idea. Use today’s market conditions to retroactively evaluate deals completed three years ago. I really need to call my realtor and change the price I paid for my home to the 2008 value.
Click to expand...
You dont need today's market to know that multiple GMs made the mistake of spending money on inferior products due to having extra cap space. When signing a 4-year contract, one should take into account market fluctuations over that contract and the constrictions that contract may have on participating in upcoming, more favorable markets.
 
e_blazer said:
This is an amazing idea. Use today’s market conditions to retroactively evaluate deals completed three years ago. I really need to call my realtor and change the price I paid for my home to the 2008 value.
Click to expand...

Some do this on reselling sites.
'I paid 3k for this furniture set in 2010, It's in excellent condition I'll sell it to you 8 years later for $2,799'.
 
BonesJones said:
You dont need today's market to know that multiple GMs made the mistake of spending money on inferior products due to having extra cap space. When signing a 4-year contract, one should take into account market fluctuations over that contract and the constrictions that contract may have on participating in upcoming, more favorable markets.
Click to expand...

We’ve discussed the Summer of 2016 ad nauseum around here. The Player’s Association wouldn’t agree to a gradual phase-in of the be TV money so guys who were free agents that summer made out like bandits and guys who hit free agency this year got relatively screwed. Could Olshey have spent his money more wisely? Sure, but nobody was signing cheap that year and with Dame’s and CJ’s new contracts it wasn’t a choice not to spend since the cap space was going to evaporate anyway. Bad timing for the Blazers.
 
wizenheimer said:
you've got a major sample size issue there. You're comparing 355 games of Meyers to 72 games of Markkanen. WS is a cumulative stat so naturally Meyers would be higher with 5 times the games. Winshare/48 is ostensibly a rate or average but it's still dependent on a team's total wins. Markkanen has only played 4 games this season because of an injury but he played for 27 win Chicago as a rookie. Meyers has played on 6 Blazer teams that have averaged about 46 wins.
That give Meyers a 1.7/1.0 advantage in the calculation. Normalizing up would give Markkanen a 128 to 101 winshare/48 advantage. Normalizing down would make it a 75 to 59 advantage

as for offensive and defensive ratings, they are too team-centric to be compared across teams and seasons, IMO, and you're going to get too much noise and skew
Click to expand...

It is a small sample size, but the link I quoted compared only this season, not any of the numbers in your argument.
 
Reep said:
It is a small sample size, but the link I quoted compared only this season, not any of the numbers in your argument.
Click to expand...

you need to open your own link. I just did and it compares all game Meyers has played in 6 seasons (355) to all games Markkanen has played in 2 seasons (73)
 
wizenheimer said:
you need to open your own link. I just did and it compares all game Meyers has played in 6 seasons (355) to all games Markkanen has played in 2 seasons (73)
Click to expand...

Okay, sorry about that. The initial page I was trying to link showed just this year.
 
wizenheimer said:
the reason is not a popular opinion is that nobody else is 'out there' enough to think Dame is Portland "biggest problem"

Dame's defense is not good, but.....

defensive rating:

Jake Layman 110
Evan Turner 110
Damian Lillard 112
CJ McCollum 113
Nik Stauskas 114
Seth Curry 116

defensive box plus/minus:

Damian Lillard -1.0
Seth Curry -1.5
Nik Stauskas -1.9
CJ McCollum -2.0

DRPM:

Seth Curry -0.32
Damian Lillard -1.74
CJ McCollum -2.11
Nik Stauskas -2.85

considering Dame spends most of his time matched up against other starting NBA PG's, he's not nearly as bad as the legend. Dame's defensive problem is that the GM refuses to add a solid defensive guard to help Dame out. Instead, he seems to find just the opposite. The glaring defensive weakness in Portland's starting unit is not at PG, it's at SG
Click to expand...

Trust me, use the eye-test and get back to me with your conclusions. And the fact that CJ isn't elite doesn't make him a worse defender than Dame because he isn't. He's not a good defender but he is much better than Dame.

My inrention ian't to trash talk Dame, I think this issue is essential to our success. Meyers is not a good defender but he's much much better than what he was a couple of years ago, I heard him say he's working on it, watching tons of tape.
I have great respect to Dame, he's an incredible player and personality but if our top player who gets the most minutes is such a liability on defense, how can we win? He has to make a concentrated effort to improve this area of his game and giving him a pass for it because he's our best player isn't what a true fan would do. A true fan would point this out for the best of the team
 
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Reep said:
Interesting to compare to Markkanen this year.

http://bkref.com/tiny/NRtM4

Leonard's WS and WS/48 are higher, but Orating and Drating are worse. What does that mean?
Click to expand...
Markannen is an interesting comparison but I think (at least based on my opionion of him coming out of college) that Markannen can be an elite player, on another level than Meyers
 
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