Michael Jordan Told Teammates Privately Clyde Drexler Was Just as Good As Him but...

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Rastapopoulos said:
Championships Jordan won without Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson: zero
Championships LeBron won without Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson: 4

Case closed.
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Championships LeBron won without Dwyane Wade and Eric Spoelstra: 2

Championships Jordan won without Dwyane Wade and Eric Spoelstra: 6
 
Rastapopoulos said:
You mean Scottie's son Scotty? He was probably talking about golf.
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Well damn I don’t know how to spell his name... or maybe.it was this damn spell-correct.... yeah that’s what it was.
 
MadeFromDust said:
I'm pretty shocked Jordan would say that since he was a superior basketball player to Clyde in just about every conceivable way.
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MJ doesn’t believe a word of it and he knows you won’t either. But it does create a another angle from which to slam Clyde. “Clyde is every bit as physically gifted as me but he’s a dumb basketball player compared to me... that’s why I’m so much better.” And he’s not wrong Clyde had the BBIQ of a rock... or perhaps a brick is more appropriate.
 
I remember Ramsey being really frustrated with Clyde as a rook, not a big deal as Ramsey didnt put much stock into rooks or younger players. Clyde was a bull in a china closet, knew one pace his rook season. He'd put that head down and go!
During that time period the defense was very physical so if you had athletic talent and hops you bull dozed! No doubt about as Clyde would say.
 
bobf said:
MJ doesn’t believe a word of it and he knows you won’t either. But it does create a another angle from which to slam Clyde. “Clyde is every bit as physically gifted as me but he’s a dumb basketball player compared to me... that’s why I’m so much better.” And he’s not wrong Clyde had the BBIQ of a rock... or perhaps a brick is more appropriate.
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Same reason MJ praises Kobe (over LeBron). Kobe is just like him in game, only not as good - so if he praises Kobe over LeBron, it's him praising himself. Only a moron would ACTUALLY think Kobe > LeBron.
 
KSF-ERIC said:
Championships LeBron won without Dwyane Wade and Eric Spoelstra: 2

Championships Jordan won without Dwyane Wade and Eric Spoelstra: 6
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Yes Eric, what you're demonstrating is that there is literally no other person that you can point to and say "LeBron never won without X". He won EVERYWHERE HE WENT, no matter who the coach was, no matter how shitty the team was when he arrived (okay, with the exception of his first spell with the Cavs - but Jordan didn't win in his first 6, 7? years with the Bulls, and LeBron's stay with the Cavs was less than that). If Jordan had gone to the Wizards and actually improved them, maybe I'd be more impressed.

Jordan was amazing - there will never be a shooting guard to surpass him (certainly not Kobe). But he's no LeBron.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
You can't lose a championship when the Pistons and the Celtics kick your ass out of the playoffs every year (until Phil arrives).
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And that is the key difference. LeBron teamed up with all the best players in his conference and had little competition en route to the Finals. That's why his 6 losses are more damning than his 4 wins are deserving.
 
I think James and Jordan are close enough that either one is a solid choice as best ever. I would say that while James seems more physically dominant than Jordan, Jordan's game was just so graceful that I tend to enjoy watching him more.
 
handiman said:
And that is the key difference. LeBron teamed up with all the best players in his conference and had little competition en route to the Finals. That's why his 6 losses are more damning than his 4 wins are deserving.
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O....kay.... You do you. Now you get to tell me how Jordan's loss to Shaq's Magic doesn't count because it wasn't in the Finals.
 
Minstrel said:
I think James and Jordan are close enough that either one is a solid choice as best ever. I would say that while James seems more physically dominant than Jordan, Jordan's game was just so graceful that I tend to enjoy watching him more.
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Yeah I fucking loved watching this:
iu
 
handiman said:
I was curious about LeBron's win-loss record in the Finals, not just championships, and someone kindly did the work for me already.

https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/05/1...bron-james-kobe-bryant-and-other-nba-legends/

At least he's top-20...
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I love this. LeBron drags his team to the finals in an unprecedented (well, post Bill Russell) 8-year streak, and weirdos try to use this against him. Meanwhile, Jordan can't make the finals AT ALL until Phil Jackson shows up (who, incidentally, replicates his success with the Lakers - almost like he's the real difference) and we're supposed to ignore this?
 
LeBron has 4 championships in 18 seasons while chasing other stars to help him carry the load. And he has DISAPPEARED on his team for full series multiple times.

Jordan won 6 in 13 years (15 if you count his Wizards years) and always performed when it mattered. ALWAYS.

I'm ok with people thinking LeBron is better. But I can think of at least 5 other guys I'd rather build a team around.

Wilt
Jordan
Bill Russell
The Dream
Walton (if only his body didn't fail him)
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Yeah I fucking loved watching this:
iu
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It's much closer than you make it sound and you have really been talking way too much shit about MJ and this post I'm replying to really hurts your credibility in this discussion because it makes it incredibly obvious that your ability to see Jordan clearly is clouded by the fact that he took a championship away from our team. You probably don't like MJ's cutthroat mentality as much as you like LeBron's team first mentality either... I know I don't.

I used to be solidly in the Jordan camp but then I realized that the comparison is futile. MJ was a score first guard, who was an assassin. He took over games in a way that you knew that every shot he put up when it mattered would fall. Scoring is the most important thing you can do in the game because placing a great pass doesn't guarantee the score. LeBron is a great scorer but not the scorer MJ was. He's possibly the best passer in the history of the game though and while assists aren't as sure fire as when you make a shot, they're fucking important.

On defense it's a fairly compromised comparison as well. MJ was a phenomenal lockdown defender of smaller players... far more dominant than LeBron has ever been of one single other superstar. That being said, there isn't a player in the league that LeBron can't slow down and you just couldn't say that of MJ.

Comparing wins and losses is pretty silly because teams are so incredibly different.

I kind of think that Wilt was the greatest in his era and greatest big man of all time, Jordan was the greatest in his era and the greatest perimeter player of all time and LeBron is the greatest of his era and the greatest all around/most versatile player of all time.
 
I think Wilt belongs in the conversation, but a lot of his case depends on his absurd stats, which are obviously not possible by anyone, including him, in the modern NBA. He was an outlier for his era, no question--a freakish athlete in a league far, far, far less athletic and long than the current one. Would Chamberlain in today's league clearly separate himself from the primes of other phenomenal big men like Shaq, Olajuwon, Duncan, Garnett, Robinson? I don't think so. (I'm not saying he couldn't be the best of that group--he might be--but not a level above.)
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Same reason MJ praises Kobe (over LeBron). Kobe is just like him in game, only not as good - so if he praises Kobe over LeBron, it's him praising himself. Only a moron would ACTUALLY think Kobe > LeBron.
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I agree but taken in context Pippen’s comment about Lebron vs Kobe was about killer instinct not necessarily overall game. Maybe he thinks Kobe is better than Lebron overall but I haven’t heard him say that.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
O....kay.... You do you. Now you get to tell me how Jordan's loss to Shaq's Magic doesn't count because it wasn't in the Finals.
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Context, maybe? Any half-intelligent observer at the time recognized that Jordan hadn't chipped off all the rust from his time away.
 
MJ/Wilt/LeBron they're all great. MJ is the GOAT for me, but I don't have a problem with arguments made for the other two.
 
One thing that I always think about is that LeBron had a couple of huge disadvantages. People tend to assume that all great basketball players come from the 'hood, but actually most of them are at least solidly middle class. Magic and Jordan came from middle-class, two-parent families. Kobe and Steph had ex-NBA players for fathers (who were actually married to their mothers and still with them) and all the money that entails. The only two really great players of recent decades who came from just terrible backgrounds were Isiah Thomas and LeBron (Iverson too, but he's a step below those two). Add to that that LeBron never went to college to get the mentoring (and perhaps father figure - although Isiah was shafted by having Bobby Knight as his coach!) that that involves, and it's a fucking miracle that he became so good. Jordan, meanwhile, had a father who pushed him relentlessly and made sure he stayed away from shady guys, and then Jordan played for one of the all-time great college coaches (and, unlike Bobby Knight, all-time great people) Dean Smith.
The amount of pressure that a good high school player from the 'hood must be under is incredible. EVERYONE is lining up to jump on your coattails, and who's going to stand up for you and make sure you aren't sucked into something nefarious?

Add to that that everyone LeBron has played with (or for) says he's a fucking basketball Rain Man...
 
There will be another Jordan - there practically already has been - Kobe was pretty close. LeBron is pretty much impossible to duplicate. He's essentially Scottie Pippen crossed with Karl Malone with the brain of John Wooden. He's kind of science fiction.
 
handiman said:
Context, maybe? Any half-intelligent observer at the time recognized that Jordan hadn't chipped off all the rust from his time away.
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And there it is. Every time Jordan loses, it's not his fault. Every time his team wins, it's ONLY because of him.
 
Minstrel said:
I think Wilt belongs in the conversation, but a lot of his case depends on his absurd stats, which are obviously not possible by anyone, including him, in the modern NBA. He was an outlier for his era, no question--a freakish athlete in a league far, far, far less athletic and long than the current one. Would Chamberlain in today's league clearly separate himself from the primes of other phenomenal big men like Shaq, Olajuwon, Duncan, Garnett, Robinson? I don't think so. (I'm not saying he couldn't be the best of that group--he might be--but not a level above.)
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I think if Wilt came along today he'd be far better. He dabbled in every sport and didn't dedicate himself single-mindedly to basketball. Plus he played in fucking Chuck Taylors. But see this story from Larry Brown:
 
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