Religion Mid East Religious War, Now with added USA Involvement!

[noknobs]

I was on the phone yesterday talking with some people we work with from Israel (very good AI, data engineers there) and we had to stop a couple of times as they all had to go get shelter because of rocket sirens. I think that when you are under direct attack - it is very hard to justify not trying to eliminate the people that are trying to kill you. If there is someone to blame here it is, imho, the Hamas people that do it from within civilian areas instead of away from it.

But, they know that if they hide behind civilians and Israel unintentionally hits some civilians everyone will be so upset at Israel instead without offering a proper solution, and if Israel does not try to protect its citizens, they are free to try and kill them without consequence. At the end of the day, Hamas is what is causing it. They leave Israel at a hard place, protect their people and look evil or let their people live under constant terror / death threat.

Let's remember that after Israel told people in Gaza to move south Hamas was the one that was blocking roads so people will stay in the north. Terror organizations doing terror things.

There simply has to be another way to protect yourself than bombing refugees like that. Yes Hamas hides behind civilians, that doesn't give you carte blanche on killing those civilians as collateral damage. What I've seen lately seems almost indiscriminate. These are people with nowhere to go. Simply dropping pamphlets before you bomb a densely populated refugee camp isn't good enough.

 

[andalusian]

There simply has to be another way to protect yourself than bombing refugees like that. Yes Hamas hides behind civilians, that doesn't give you carte blanche on killing those civilians as collateral damage. What I've seen lately seems almost indiscriminate. These are people with nowhere to go. Simply dropping pamphlets before you bomb a densely populated refugee camp isn't good enough.

What is that method? Seriously?

They asked the civilians to leave, gave them over a week head start, Hamas blocked the way to prevent the civilians from leaving and continued to bomb Israeli civilians while hiding behind their own civilians.

I am asking why you are not showing the same kind of shock that Hamas is indiscriminately throwing rockets at Israeli civilian centers but when Israel tries to pinpoint attack those that throw these rockets you are upset. It is upsetting that civilians on both sides are affected, but it's not like Israel started this mess nor is it Israel that is trying hide behind the civilians.

I just do not hear any solutions other than "lie down and let the bad guys shoot you". I would honestly love to hear a better solution. It is a bad situation, but I just don't see how it is reasonable to expect Israel to let Hamas throw rockets without any repercussions because they (Hamas) are willing to use their own civilians as shields. This is a bit like a cancer situation and unfortunately, the radiation and chemo is hurting some of the good cells. I honestly just do not hear any solution other than "let them kill you". I just do not see how this is a reasonable solution.

Is it awful that it happens? Of course. Can you blame Israel from protecting itself from destruction? I can't see how you can, reasonably.

Unless the Palestinians get rid of Hamas themselves or a 3rd party like the more moderate Arab countries are willing to step in and ensure that terror organizations do not continue their way, I just do not know what else there is to do to solve this solution.

 

[noknobs]

I am asking why you are not showing the same kind of shock that Hamas is indiscriminately throwing rockets at Israeli civilian centers

Who the fuck says I'm not appalled by what Hamas did and is doing? What the fuck?

 

[andalusian]

Who the fuck says I'm not appalled by what Hamas did and is doing? What the fuck?

Sorry. My apologies. I just see people upset that Israel has to protect itself and apparently lumped you among them for no reason. My bad.

My point tho, about the situation stays the same. The issue here is that a terror organization is running Gaza and innocent people on both sides are suffering. I can not, reasonably however, blame Israel for trying to protect it's citizens - and unfortunately, it has a cost that most wars have, where innocent people suffer.

Logically, I can not blame Israel of doing it, unfortunate as the consequences are. I just don't believe the carte blanche claim you made. If Israel really wanted to do that, they would not have given them a week to evacuate. Let's remember that they can not wait forever, while they are waiting there are innocent people that were abducted and are hostages while millions have to rush to different shelters at any time of the day because of rockets launched at them.

Claiming that simply dropping leaflets is not enough is naïve. What do you expect them to do? Again, I am coming back to the question of what is your reasonable solution? If they don't tell them to move, what else can they do to stop the attack on their own people?

If you can't come with a better solution, I think it is an unreasonable thing to say.

 

[oldfisherman]

My 2 cents,

The only route I see to stop the killing of Gaza civilians goes through Hamas.

If Hamas returned ALL OF THE HOSTAGES, and stopped the rocket attacks on Isreal. The entire world would be against Isreals continued bombing of Gaza civilians.

The problem is Hamas, Iran, and Iran's other terrorist groups do not want peace.

 

[noknobs]

Sorry. My apologies. I just see people upset that Israel has to protect itself and apparently lumped you among them for no reason. My bad.

My point tho, about the situation stays the same. The issue here is that a terror organization is running Gaza and innocent people on both sides are suffering. I can not, reasonably however, blame Israel for trying to protect it's citizens - and unfortunately, it has a cost that most wars have, where innocent people suffer.

Logically, I can not blame Israel of doing it, unfortunate as the consequences are. I just don't believe the carte blanche claim you made. If Israel really wanted to do that, they would not have given them a week to evacuate. Let's remember that they can not wait forever, while they are waiting there are innocent people that were abducted and are hostages while millions have to rush to different shelters at any time of the day because of rockets launched at them.

Claiming that simply dropping leaflets is not enough is naïve. What do you expect them to do? Again, I am coming back to the question of what is your reasonable solution? If they don't tell them to move, what else can they do to stop the attack on their own people?

If you can't come with a better solution, I think it is an unreasonable thing to say.

Right, I mean if noknobs sitting at his computer in Los Angeles can't come up with a game plan on peace in the middle east I guess bombing densely populated refugee camps makes a lot of sense. Okey dokey.

 

[Phatguysrule]

What if there was a murderous gang in SW Portland that kept firing rockets into NE Portland because they shouldn't even exist, and they should all die, even the SW gen population didn't want to be under the Gang rule, but are under seize form the murderous SW gang. NE Portland in order to survive being eliminated by the SW gang, decided that once and for all, to eliminate the rocket fire and terrorist acts for good, of the murderous sw gang. Again Israel wants a two state GAZA and peace accord with Saudi and others that recognize Israel existence. Hamas is no different than ISIS.

Is Israel laid down their guns and stuck out a peace offering to Hamas, the Jews would be all eliminated, like what Hitlers goal was. If Hamas laid down their weapons and recognized a two state Israel would offer peace and opportunities.
Im all for the Abraham accord as it will be the closest thing to peace in the mid east.

Cutting off food, water, and electricity to the residents of Portland wouldn't be advisable.

 

[andalusian]

Right, I mean if noknobs sitting at his computer in Los Angeles can't come up with a game plan on peace in the middle east I guess bombing densely populated refugee camps makes a lot of sense. Okey dokey.

So, your assertion is that nothing else was tried and failed?

Reminder,

1. Israel only had to occupy these areas because it was repeatedly attacked from them by multiple countries over the years since 1948
2. When there was a process for 2 state peace, Israel agreed to let the Palestinians have authority over Gaza and the West bank, as a starting point to peace talks, all the Palestinians had to give to get this authority was for the first time agree that Israel has the right to exist.
3. The people of Gaza had an election, elected Hamas as their leadership, which immediately reneged on the agreement that Israel has the right to exist and resumed terror activities.

This is a really simple situation and noknobs, sitting at his computer in Los Angeles has apparently arrived at the simple solution that Israeli civilian life is less valuable than Palestinian civilian life, despite the fact that the entire situation (all the way back to 1948 and more recently with the current war) started because of the Palestinian terror organization. So, yes, I find your conclusions rather questionable.

 

[noknobs]

This is a really simple situation and noknobs, sitting at his computer in Los Angeles has apparently arrived at the simple solution that Israeli civilian life is less valuable than Palestinian civilian life

Hey, whoever you are, fuck you. I get that you're emotional but that's not true at all and I've said nothing to even suggest that. I've arrived at the fact they're equal.

 

[CJ_is_Gone]

The problem is Hamas, Iran, and Iran's other terrorist groups do not want peace.

This is a big issue. You can't finalize a peace deal when one side has no desire/intent to live in peace.

 

[andalusian]

Hey, whoever you are, fuck you. I get that you're emotional but that's not true at all and I've said nothing to even suggest that. I've arrived at the fact they're equal.

OK, I do not think I am the emotional one. I am the one who points out that there are both sides where civilians are being affected - and I do not think it is reasonable to blame the ones that are under attack originally.

As for your kind offer of sexual intercourse, I would kindly decline. It's not you, it's me, I am just not attracted to you.

 

[Phatguysrule]

My 2 cents,

The only route I see to stop the killing of Gaza civilians goes through Hamas.

If Hamas returned ALL OF THE HOSTAGES, and stopped the rocket attacks on Isreal. The entire world would be against Isreals continued bombing of Gaza civilians.

The problem is Hamas, Iran, and Iran's other terrorist groups do not want peace.

So root them out. Offer huge rewards for anyone involved, work with informants and send special ops in to collect them.

Offer education, healthcare, other services. Win hearts and minds.

It's not easy, but it would neutralize the problem far bet than creating thousands of new enemies every day.

 

[andalusian]

So root them out. Offer huge rewards for anyone involved, work with informants and send special ops in to collect them.

Offer education, healthcare, other services. Win hearts and minds.

It's not easy, but it would neutralize the problem far bet than creating thousands of new enemies every day.

I think this is the long term solution. But at this point, when they are in power, you need to first eliminate the threat from them. Hopefully, once this happens, there will be work done to help the civilians invest in their own community instead of accumulating rockets etc...

It will have to be, imho, a 3rd moderate party that will do that. Probably something put together by the moderate Arab countries that are really who Iran is trying to destabilize.

 

[RR7]

I think this is the long term solution. But at this point, when they are in power, you need to first eliminate the threat from them. Hopefully, once this happens, there will be work done to help the civilians invest in their own community instead of accumulating rockets etc...

It will have to be, imho, a 3rd moderate party that will do that. Probably something put together by the moderate Arab countries that are really who Iran is trying to destabilize.

The problem with that is, instead of starting with what phatguy said, and having that on the back burner and starting by bombing their positions, you're juast going to create situations where kids grow up without parents, without siblings, or don't grow up at all, and even if you go in to great detail about how Hamas is ultimately to blame, they will know who pulled the trigger, and a new wave of hate is born.

 

[oldfisherman]

So root them out. Offer huge rewards for anyone involved, work with informants and send special ops in to collect them.

Offer education, healthcare, other services. Win hearts and minds.

It's not easy, but it would neutralize the problem far bet than creating thousands of new enemies every day.

I am not picking on you, I like how you think. But.

How many Hamas fighters are there? No one knows. Estimates range all the way up to 40,000. And the plan is to send in a small special operation group? That is a suicide mission.

This is not a small spat. These is a very large gorilla war, and some, if not many of the people in north Gaza dressed as civilians maybe Hamas fighters.

 

[andalusian]

The problem with that is, instead of starting with what phatguy said, and having that on the back burner and starting by bombing their positions, you're juast going to create situations where kids grow up without parents, without siblings, or don't grow up at all, and even if you go in to great detail about how Hamas is ultimately to blame, they will know who pulled the trigger, and a new wave of hate is born.

I do not disagree with it. I just don't know what other option there is. We have arrived at a place where if Israel does not do it, there will be continued terror attacks and daily rocket launches at innocent people. Hamas has pretty much brought Israel to a no-win situation. If they do not take care of the immediate threat, their life will be horrible going forward. If they do, people are upset.

So, the non-emotional solution, unfortunately, is to solve the immediate problem (Hamas) - and find a way to help them long-term once that immediate threat is removed. I am again going for the Cancer analogy. Chemo and Radiation are not just hurting the cancerous cells, but sometimes that's the only option.

Let's entertain the idea that having almost 1,500 Israeli civilians die because of a terror attack is not the trigger point for Israel, what is it? 15,000, 150,000? Because, let's face it, that's where it is going next with Hamas.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I am not picking on you, I like how you think. But.

How many Hamas fighters are there? No one knows. Estimates range all the way up to 40,000. And the plan is to send in a small special operation group? That is a suicide mission.

This is not a small spat. These is a very large gorilla war, and some, if not many of the people in north Gaza dressed as civilians maybe Hamas fighters.

Not a problem at all. I appreciate the conversation.

There are only so many people who have the skills to plan terror attacks. There are only so many people who have thw skills to lead.

And even fewer of those people are ignorant enough to hate somebody because of their race or religion.

Those are the people you target for elimination. You win the hearts and minds of the rest.

It's not easy. But it's what we should have done after 9/11, and I think it would be the best policy in this situation as well.

 

[Hoopguru]

So root them out. Offer huge rewards for anyone involved, work with informants and send special ops in to collect them.

Offer education, healthcare, other services. Win hearts and minds.

It's not easy, but it would neutralize the problem far bet than creating thousands of new enemies every day.

The Palestinian people would much rather have Hamas removed, so more of the opportunities would be available to them along with peace. And no longer used as human shields by murderous terrorist that dont give two shits about the Palestinian people. Gaza can become a prosperous state only when Hamas is gone.

 

[RR7]

I do not disagree with it. I just don't know what other option there is. We have arrived at a place where if Israel does not do it, there will be continued terror attacks and daily rocket launches at innocent people. Hamas has pretty much brought Israel to a no-win situation. If they do not take care of the immediate threat, their life will be horrible going forward. If they do, people are upset.

So, the non-emotional solution, unfortunately, is to solve the immediate problem (Hamas) - and find a way to help them long-term once that immediate threat is removed. I am again going for the Cancer analogy. Chemo and Radiation are not just hurting the cancerous cells, but sometimes that's the only option.

Let's entertain the idea that having almost 1,500 Israeli civilians die because of a terror attack is not the trigger point for Israel, what is it? 15,000, 150,000? Because, let's face it, that's where it is going next with Hamas.

But any amount is a trigger point, and has been consistently.
From what I can find from the UN, over the last 15 years, there have been over 6,500 Palestinians killed by Israelis. In that same time span there was slightly over 300 Israelis killed by Palestinians. Yes, they have a right to defend themselves. Contrary to your belief, there isn't an easy solution. But they have consistently answered attacks with a force 20 times higher than what they've been hit with, and it hasn't solved the problem yet.

 

[andalusian]

But any amount is a trigger point, and has been consistently.
From what I can find from the UN, over the last 15 years, there have been over 6,500 Palestinians killed by Israelis. In that same time span there was slightly over 300 Israelis killed by Palestinians. Yes, they have a right to defend themselves. Contrary to your belief, there isn't an easy solution. But they have consistently answered attacks with a force 20 times higher than what they've been hit with, and it hasn't solved the problem yet.

Well, I do not really know what the answer is, but we have seen that over 1,300 Israeli civilians were killed just last month. I also, generally, do not think Israel was the instigator in the vast majority of these issues. So, once again, the terror groups that do not value the life of the people that they supposedly represent use them as cover thus bringing that discrepancy in numbers you point.

It seems to me that this is exactly their M.O. The world, at large, agree that a 2 state solution is the right way to go, all the way back to the UN resolution from 1947 and forward. The only ones that object to it are the religious nuts, they carry terror attacks, use their own people as shields and then use their loses as propaganda. The only reasonable solution is to remove these terror groups and if the Palestinians can not, or are not willing to remove them from within, their victims have got to a place where they have to act.

I know that the emotional thing to do is to cry about the innocent victims, but the terror groups are not crying about them, they use the innocents (on both sides) to appeal to the emotion. I am not saying that every decision Israel made or makes is right, but on the scale of right and wrong, they are more right than wrong. They did give the civilians heads up to evacuate. They do try and minimize the areas they hit instead of spray bombing the way Hamas does. Is it horrible that there are innocent victims? Of course - but they were systematically been forced to that place.

So, logically (because emotions will not solve this in the short or the long term), I can not really accuse Israel of what they have tried to do, given the restrictions they have to live with.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The Palestinian people would much rather have Hamas removed, so more of the opportunities would be available to them along with peace. And no longer used as human shields by murderous terrorist that dont give two shits about the Palestinian people. Gaza can become a prosperous state only when Hamas is gone.

This seems to be the case to me as well. The Palestinians will help Israel find peace if they are given the opportunity and incentive.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

The US Navy has a carrier strike group there, is there any way we can use that to provide safety for other Arab countries to bring ships to evacuate the women, children, sick, and wounded from the area? As long as those ships agree to be searched by us before going to Gaza so they aren't bringing in more weapons and terrorists, it doesn't matter if they're Iranian, Saudi, or whoever. Just make an effort to get the innocents out.

 

[RR7]

Well, I do not really know what the answer is, but we have seen that over 1,300 Israeli civilians were killed just last month. I also, generally, do not think Israel was the instigator in the vast majority of these issues. So, once again, the terror groups that do not value the life of the people that they supposedly represent use them as cover thus bringing that discrepancy in numbers you point.

It seems to me that this is exactly their M.O. The world, at large, agree that a 2 state solution is the right way to go, all the way back to the UN resolution from 1947 and forward. The only ones that object to it are the religious nuts, they carry terror attacks, use their own people as shields and then use their loses as propaganda. The only reasonable solution is to remove these terror groups and if the Palestinians can not, or are not willing to remove them from within, their victims have got to a place where they have to act.

I know that the emotional thing to do is to cry about the innocent victims, but the terror groups are not crying about them, they use the innocents (on both sides) to appeal to the emotion. I am not saying that every decision Israel made or makes is right, but on the scale of right and wrong, they are more right than wrong. They did give the civilians heads up to evacuate. They do try and minimize the areas they hit instead of spray bombing the way Hamas does. Is it horrible that there are innocent victims? Of course - but they were systematically been forced to that place.

So, logically (because emotions will not solve this in the short or the long term), I can not really accuse Israel of what they have tried to do, given the restrictions they have to live with.

It just seems like you've come to the inverse conclusion you accused noknobs of, that Israeli civilian life is more valuable than Palestinian civilian life. Even when viewing the HUGE disproportion of innocent lives taken.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The US Navy has a carrier strike group there, is there any way we can use that to provide safety for other Arab countries to bring ships to evacuate the women, children, sick, and wounded from the area? As long as those ships agree to be searched by us before going to Gaza so they aren't bringing in more weapons and terrorists, it doesn't matter if they're Iranian, Saudi, or whoever. Just make an effort to get the innocents out.

This is a great idea, but are there any Arab countries that would take them? I've heard Egypt will not...

 

[andalusian]

It just seems like you've come to the inverse conclusion you accused noknobs of, that Israeli civilian life is more valuable than Palestinian civilian life. Even when viewing the HUGE disproportion of innocent lives taken.

I do not think I did. I think there is just no alternative Israel is presented with. I argued before and I continue to argue that the big civilian casualties suffered in Gaza is because Hamas is using the civilians as shield and propaganda. If they really cared about their people, they would not do that. If they really cared in this specific war, they would not prohibit them from leaving. They would not build their tunnels under civilian buildings and use them as shields for their rocket launchers.

What I argued was the making statements like "there has to be other solution", implying that Israel chose to have it's citizens attacks or can realistically choose to let it's citizens continue to live under terror threat because the terrorists use their own people as shields. That, to me, as an illogical statement.

My argument is that Israel has to choose between protecting it's people and try to be precise in attacking Hamas while it uses it's own people as shields. They just have no other reasonable solution at this point.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

This is a great idea, but are there any Arab countries that would take them? I've heard Egypt will not...

Iran sure seems like it wants a seat at the table, a Seal Team could easily take over an empty oil tanker returning to Iran. They agree to either send appropriate ships or we start keeping tankers.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I do not think I did. I think there is just no alternative Israel is presented with. I argued before and I continue to argue that the big civilian casualties suffered in Gaza is because Hamas is using the civilians as shield and propaganda. If they really cared about their people, they would not do that. If they really cared in this specific war, they would not prohibit them from leaving. They would not build their tunnels under civilian buildings and use them as shields for their rocket launchers.

Unfortunately the Palestinians have been given no better option than Hamas. Hamas does offer services and security, nobody else is offering that. But most Palestinians don't enjoy living under extremist rule, from everything I have heard.

 

[andalusian]

Unfortunately the Palestinians have been given no better option than Hamas. Hamas does offer services and security, nobody else is offering that. But most Palestinians don't enjoy living under extremist rule, from everything I have heard.

Well, the West Bank is ruled by the PA - which is who the Gazans rejected in 2006 or so and voted Hamas. I am pretty sure there are hospitals and services in the west bank. So, I do not think this is 100% correct. I think that what happened was that Gaza for whatever reason believed in Hamas more than the PA (which supposedly also has corruption issues) - and once that happened, they are left under a dictatorship (there were no elections since that time, to the best of my knowledge).

But, I agree, I am sure there are a lot of the Palestinians that live in Gaza who would love to live peaceful lives. I hope that once the terror threat is eliminated - there is a way to help them.

Now, if the PA is a better option than Hamas or not, I am not certain, but they do seem less radical and interested in war, so maybe they are?

 

[oldfisherman]

This is a great idea, but are there any Arab countries that would take them? I've heard Egypt will not...

Turkey has about 30,000 Palestinians living there now. And has been giving aid to Gaza.

If the price was right, Turkey would take them.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I asked ChatGPT.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and deeply rooted issue with a long history of political, territorial, and religious disputes. Achieving peace in the region is challenging, but there are several principles and steps that can be taken to work toward a resolution. Keep in mind that this is a highly sensitive and political issue, and different parties may have varying perspectives on what a just and lasting peace looks like. Here are some general steps and principles that could help facilitate the peace process:

1. Two-State Solution: The most widely accepted framework for a peaceful resolution is the two-state solution, where Israel and a future Palestinian state coexist side by side with secure and recognized borders. Negotiations should focus on defining the borders of both states and resolving territorial disputes.
   
2. Negotiation and Diplomacy: Engage in direct negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians with the goal of reaching a comprehensive peace agreement. International mediators, such as the United States, the United Nations, the European Union, and neighboring Arab countries, can play a role in facilitating and brokering these talks.
   
3. Confidence-Building Measures: Both sides should take steps to build trust and reduce tensions. These measures might include prisoner releases, easing restrictions on the movement of people and goods, and addressing issues related to settlements and land use.
   
4. Security Arrangements: Establish effective and mutually agreed-upon security arrangements to ensure the safety of both Israelis and Palestinians. International peacekeeping forces may be necessary to monitor and enforce security agreements.
   
5. Resolution of Final Status Issues: Address key final status issues, such as the status of Jerusalem, the right of return for Palestinian refugees, and the disposition of settlements. These issues are among the most contentious and require careful negotiation.
   
6. Economic Development and Prosperity: Invest in economic development and infrastructure projects that can improve living conditions and opportunities for Palestinians. Economic stability can help foster a more conducive environment for peace.
   
7. Education and Reconciliation: Promote educational programs that encourage understanding and empathy between Israelis and Palestinians. Encourage initiatives that foster reconciliation and dialogue at the grassroots level.
   
8. International Support: Seek the support and involvement of the international community to monitor the peace process, provide financial assistance, and ensure the implementation of agreements.
   
9. Public Opinion and Leadership: Encourage political leaders on both sides to make courageous decisions and work toward a peaceful resolution. Public support for peace is essential, so leaders should also engage in public diplomacy to garner support for the peace process.
   
10. Persistence and Patience: Recognize that achieving lasting peace in the region may take time and involve setbacks. Staying committed to the peace process is crucial.
    

It's important to note that achieving peace in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a highly complex and contentious endeavor, and various political, historical, and cultural factors influence the process. Different parties have diverse perspectives and interests, and the path to peace is not straightforward. Nevertheless, a commitment to negotiation, diplomacy, and a two-state solution remains a widely accepted framework for a peaceful resolution.