Religion Mid East Religious War, Now with added USA Involvement!

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It's a political and geographic war, not religious.

Normally the US has a general on the ground there but Tuberville blocked the appointment.
 
I do not see the vision here for Hamas, Palestinians, civilians in Gaza etc. It's going to justify more brutality from the apartheid state of Israel. So as someone who is pro peace, anti war first primarily above all else, this is a devastating setback.

Since people are posting articles they find relevant...It's behind a paywall so forgive the wonky archive link.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847
https://archive.ph/6mQ4Z
 
The Democrat Socialists of America are putting on a rally in support of the attacks. Can't make this shit up....
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It's a shit-show and a big part of this was the fact that Hamas immediatly reneged on the Oslo agreements that recognize Israel's right to exist while getting control of Gaza around 1996-1997, When additional concession made by the Barak government in the late 90s did not bring anything forward, unsurprisingly, Israel's more conservative forces came into power in government and it has been escalating ever since.

There is a reason why Israel has peace treaties with Muslim countries around it that recognize it's right to exist (Egypt, Jordan) and there are talks of normalization with the Saudis, but the Iran sponsored terrorist groups are basically holding their own people hostage by being unwilling to move away from the basic requirement for peace talks. I am not saying that Israel's conservative government and some factions in it are not to blame, but Hamas and Iran are the main reason for this shit-show.

I also do not believe this nonsense of apartheid state. Israel has around 2 million Arab citizen that live and vote (20% of the population). It's the groups that do not want it to exist that are the main cause of this conflict getting as ugly as it is - and it is not going to get any better after this attack. I mean, if there are complete groups that are dedicated to your eradication, you can't expect to make them welcome to come and go as they wish. Unfortunately, that's what the Hamas ruled areas did to their own people. (Before the Hamas rule people from Gaza could go and work within the Israeli areas with relative ease, it is much harder now given that they basically are on record as trying to eliminate the state of Israel). So, their confinement, for all practical purposes, is because of their unwillingness to reconcile.
 
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andalusian said:
It's a shit-show and a big part of this was the fact that Hamas immediatly reneged on the Oslo agreements that recognize Israel's right to exist while getting control of Gaza around 1996-1997, When additional concession made by the Barak government in the late 90s did not bring anything forward, unsurprisingly, Israel's more conservative forces came into power in government and it has been escalating ever since.

There is a reason why Israel has peace treaties with Muslim countries around it that recognize it's right to exist (Egypt, Jordan) and there are talks of normalization with the Saudis, but the Iran sponsored terrorist groups are basically holding their own people hostage by being unwilling to move away from the basic requirement for peace talks. I am not saying that Israel's conservative government and some factions in it are not to blame, but Hamas and Iran are the main reason for this shit-show.

I also do not believe this nonsense of apartheid state. Israel has around 2 million Arab citizen that live and vote (20% of the population). It's the groups that do not want it to exist that are the main cause of this conflict getting as ugly as it is - and it is not going to get any better after this attack. I mean, if there are complete groups that are dedicated to your eradication, you can't expect to make them welcome to come and go as they wish. Unfortunately, that's what the Hamas ruled areas did to their own people. (Before the Hamas rule people from Gaza could go and work within the Israeli areas with relative ease, it is much harder now given that they basically are on record as trying to eliminate the state of Israel). So, their confinement, for all practical purposes, is because of their unwillingness to reconcile.
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That's exactly the problem. The idea that Israel shouldn't even exist. I see many justifying these attacks on those grounds. But it's an insane position because Israel is not going to pack up and move to Arizona.

Only 1 side is openly genocidal. I'm not saying Israel has never been in the wrong, but if the positions of power were reversed, a real genocide would take place.
 
I have posted a video of Israeli soldiers sniping little girls, then bragging about it on film. (This was years ago. I have no urge to re-post it, since these videos are on YouTube for all who want to go looking)

I can't support a country that knowing and willingly allows this to happen within their military ranks.

Not that I support any war, including the Ukrainian war.
 
Road Ratt said:
I have posted a video of Israeli soldiers sniping little girls, then bragging about it on film. (This was years ago. I have no urge to re-post it, since these videos are on YouTube for all who want to go looking)

I can't support a country that knowing and willingly allows this to happen within their military ranks.

Not that I support any war, including the Ukrainian war.
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You are again and again not doing your research properly - for someone that is so happy to post any link he finds, it's a shame that you do not do the work to find out what really happened and what the official response was. Frankly, for me, it makes it really hard to take anything you say seriously because you obviously just do not put the time to actually try to understand what is happening, you come to a conclusion, find sound bites that fit it and call it a day. A real shame.

Individuals doing bad things and official policies about doing them are not one and the same. there are going to be bad individuals everywhere. The question is, are these sanctioned actions or not?

I have no clue what you might have posted, but here is a recent incident response by the Israeli army:

The Israeli army said in a statement on Wednesday that the soldiers were convicted of abuse and a third was additionally convicted of exceeding his authority and endangering a man’s life or health.

The indictments said the three soldiers, as well as a fourth, took the Palestinian man in a military four-wheel drive and drove to an unidentified “distant location”. During the drive and afterwards, “violence was used against the victim” and he was left in a remote location, the statement said.

The soldiers, whose identities were withheld, then “hid the details of the incident from their commanders in an attempt to prevent [military officials] from opening an investigation and coordinated their versions regarding the details of the incident”, the statement said.
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In this case, the soldiers got prison sentences and demotions.

(This is from Al Jazeera, in May 23 this year, not the most pro-israel source).

Now, contrast this with Hamas parading kidnapped individuals around and boasting about the Iranian leaders calling to congratulate them.

If there is something we have seen over and over in complicated things like wars is that there is never one side that is completely blameless for everything that happened, but there are clear reasons to believe that Russia was the aggressor in the Ukraine war, the Nazi's are why WW2 happened and Hamas is the main reason this conflict is as ugly as it is becoming.
 
had the misfortune of walking through Times Square this afternoon where apparently a holy war was happening on 47th st. Israeli supporters on one side, Palestinian on the other. Was straight out of a Curb episode.

 
It is very easy to throw insults at people who disagree with you. It's a lot harder to actually defend your viewpoint with a fact or two.
 
crandc said:
It is very easy to throw insults at people who disagree with you. It's a lot harder to actually defend your viewpoint with a fact or two.
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the literal premise for the entire conflict (even if you consider only from WWI until now) has been based nearly entirely on religion. To call it anything but is just insane.
 
Apartheid is by definition a policy of segregation by race, given that there are millions of Israeli arab citizens, it is by definition not a case of apartheid. You can also call it a loving relationship if you change the meaning of loving, does not make it a loving relationship by the meaning of the word.

This is clearly a result of the ruling party in Gaza being determined not to compromise and believe in the right of Israel to exist. Everything else is just propaganda, unfortunately. If they didn't reneg on the Oslo agreement that gave them the rule of the Gaza strip, we would likely be a lot closer to a 2 state solution, but it is easy to blame Israel because Hamas is good at the propaganda of being the victim.

It is a shame that it is the people they supposedly fight for are the ones that suffer the most.

And if amnesty international calls it apartheid, they, too, do not use the proper word.
 
Vox had a great series on these settlements.







Somehow, I don't characterize being forced to convert to judaism to obtain rights as a "compromise." That guy at 5:43 in the last video has a very punchable face.
 
The settlements are an abomination IMHO as well, but let's remember they are not in Gaza, but in the west Bank which is not ruled by Hamas, if you want to slam the settlements, I am with you, these are religious nonsense 100% - but it's nothing to do with Hamas and Gaza, other than by way of propaganda. Let us remember that Gaza was basically captured by Hamas from the plo or whatever they are called today which still rules the west Bank, so it's not like there's a lot of love between these 2 parties.

Hamas and Iran are the reason Gaza and it's inhabitants suffer so much.

The settlements are probably a result of the conservative faction of Israel coming into power after the Oslo agreement was reneged and the Israeli populace became disillusioned with the will of the Palestinians (mostly Hamas) to seek peace.
 
illmatic99 said:
the literal premise for the entire conflict (even if you consider only from WWI until now) has been based nearly entirely on religion. To call it anything but is just insane.
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As I was saying....
 
Donald Trump's Israel Intel Leak Under Scrutiny After Hamas Attack

Donald Trump's sharing of alleged classified intelligence to Russian officials in the White House has come under scrutiny amid a large-scale attack by the Hamas Islamist military group against Israel.

In May 2017, the former president defended his actions after he was found to have discussed sensitive details about an alleged Islamic State (ISIS) plot with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and Ambassador Sergey Kislyak in the Oval Office. Trump said he had an absolute right to do so. The intel was said to have been provided to the U.S. from Israel.

It was suggested at the time that the former president's handing over sensitive information from Israel could have damaged the relationship between the two countries. It also could have raised the possibility that the details could be passed from Russia to Iran, the Gulf nation that is a fierce adversary of Israel and has long supported Hamas.

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-israel-intel-russia-hamas-attack-1833094
 
Egypt intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings of ‘something big’
Cairo official says Israel focused on West Bank instead of Gaza; Egypt’s spy chief said to warn PM of ‘terrible operation,’ Netanyahu’s office denies

Mounting questions over Israel’s massive intelligence failure to anticipate and prepare for a surprise Hamas assault were compounded Monday when an Egyptian intelligence official said that Jerusalem had ignored repeated warnings that the Gaza-based terror group was planning “something big” — which included an apparent direct notice from Cairo’s intelligence minister to the prime minister.

The Egyptian official said Egypt, which often serves as a mediator between Israel and Hamas, had spoken repeatedly with the Israelis about “something big,” without elaborating.

He said Israeli officials were focused on the West Bank and played down the threat from Gaza. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government is made up of supporters of West Bank settlers who have demanded a security crackdown there in the face of a rising tide of violence over the last 18 months.


“We have warned them an explosion of the situation is coming, and very soon, and it would be big. But they underestimated such warnings,” the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to discuss the content of sensitive intelligence discussions with the media, told The Associated Press.

In one of the said warnings, Egypt’s Intelligence Minister General Abbas Kamel personally called Netanyahu only 10 days before the massive attack that Gazans were likely to do “something unusual, a terrible operation,” according to the Ynet news site.

Unnamed Egyptian officials told the site they were shocked by Netanyahu’s indifference to the news and said the premier told the minister the military was “submerged” in troubles in the West Bank.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt...l-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/
 
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