Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters

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Wildlife refuges are essential to the quality of air and water we enjoy. The Chinese essentially turned most of a continent into a desert after 15 thousand years of public use...no drinkable water, wiped out wildlife ecosystems, eroded clear cut mountains making the rivers mud puddles...I don't trust the public to manage the natural habitat...a real estate agent just clear cut the ridgetop down the hill from me, destroying the windbreak and causing their neighbors trees to crush his house in the last windstorm...the guy got 20k for the lumber without thinking about the cause and effect. I'm pissed about it and his 10 acres looks like it's been bombed and strafed. Better the govt or state than a Calif real estate idiot
 
Denny should hate that, if he was at all consistent. After all, the Constitution as written is perfect in every way and the founders thought through every possibility and if they'd wanted the federal government to be able to keep hoverboards off of airplanes, they would have written that power into the constitution explicitly.

barfo

The constitution calls for and defines an amendment process it if it is to be changed. It's been done 33 times.

My position is that it is the law until it is changed through amendment. Not some fuzzy "whatever seems right now" interpretation.
 
Wildlife refuges are essential to the quality of air and water we enjoy. The Chinese essentially turned most of a continent into a desert after 15 thousand years of public use...no drinkable water, wiped out wildlife ecosystems, eroded clear cut mountains making the rivers mud puddles...I don't trust the public to manage the natural habitat...a real estate agent just clear cut the ridgetop down the hill from me, destroying the windbreak and causing their neighbors trees to crush his house in the last windstorm...the guy got 20k for the lumber without thinking about the cause and effect. I'm pissed about it and his 10 acres looks like it's been bombed and strafed. Better the govt or state than a Calif real estate idiot

In Illinois, the state runs "forest preserves."

There is an alternative to Feds owning land and private sector owning land.
 
Even though I got this from the dreaded Huff Post (I can already hear screaming) I thought Denny and MarAzul might each get a serious chubby over it....and shockingly enough, I could get behind most of this if the State of Oregon actually had a two party political system.....
Texas Governor Wants To Amend The Constitution So States Can Ignore The Federal Government
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2016/01/08/texas-constitutional-amendment_n_8940958.html
interesting read
 
Even though I got this from the dreaded Huff Post (I can already hear screaming) I thought Denny and MarAzul might each get a serious chubby over it....and shockingly enough, I could get behind most of this if the State of Oregon actually had a two party political system.....
Texas Governor Wants To Amend The Constitution So States Can Ignore The Federal Government
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2016/01/08/texas-constitutional-amendment_n_8940958.html

I think the Texas governor is spot on. Not necessarily about any given issue, but the the process it's self. The Governors should hold a Constitutional convention when they think is is necessary and begin and amendment process to over turn precedent set by the court. The Court has no power to override the Constitution including the amendment, and it is about the only way to correct bad court decisions. The court can over turn their own, but it not at all likely in the life time of the majority of the members.
 
In Illinois, the state runs "forest preserves."

There is an alternative to Feds owning land and private sector owning land.
My father donated hundred of acres of his farm in the mid west with the provision it remain a game refuge forever..used to be hilly pasture land. I believe it was also managed by the state
 
want is to sell Yellowstone to strip miners

barf! That is a ridiculous statement. I sure as hell am not advocating selling Yellowstone, nor was I in favor of letting it burn early in this century.
But in any advent, mining resource still requires a permit process even on private land. A claim process too as I recall.
 
My father donated hundred of acres of his farm in the mid west with the provision it remain a game refuge forever..used to be hilly pasture land. I believe it was also managed by the state

A farmer here near Bandon did the same thing several years ago. The land was added to the Bandon Marsh, a federal wild life refuge. The buggers managing the thing screwed with the dikes
so that the area filled with tide water where there became pools of stagnate water. Turn the nearly 100 acres into a mosquito farm. It made my place and everyone else's around for 15 miles an untenable place to be. Then the US Fish & Wildlife Service denied the mosquitoes come for the Marsh for about two years. We finally had to put a press on to get their attention, some of us had to go to the meeting and become obnoxious (I have practice) to get there attention. They finally Fixed the problem but it took three friggin years, and we still have to ride herd on those clowns.

I suppose the city dwellers don't really notice these things, if they had happened to stop the night in Bullard's State Park, they probably just write it off as; bad place, won't go there again.
I seen no advantage to having the land in a refuge managed by the federal government, it was fine feeding a few cows before and paying taxes. Now it is costing tax payers and causing aggravation.

I am not in favor of taking more land off the tax roles. Some of these counties, the land is already mostly control by outside forces where the local people have no say at all.

http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Bandon_Marsh/alert.html
 
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barf! That is a ridiculous statement. I sure as hell am not advocating selling Yellowstone, nor was I in favor of letting it burn early in this century.
But in any advent, mining resource still requires a permit process even on private land. A claim process too as I recall.

I addressed that comment to (at) Denny, not you. You seem to me to be less ideologically rigid than him...

barfo
 
I addressed that comment to (at) Denny, not you. You seem to me to be less ideologically rigid than him...

barfo

My position is Wyoming should run Yellowstone Park, not the Feds.

It is your confusion that the Feds not owning land means selling Yellowstone to the private sector. If not confusion, then straw man.
 
My position is Wyoming should run Yellowstone Park, not the Feds.

It is your confusion that the Feds not owning land means selling Yellowstone to the private sector. If not confusion, then straw man.

I can't see Wyoming letting it burn. So that works.
 
I can't see Wyoming letting it burn. So that works.

Not clear to me why the state of Wyoming would be a better steward of the Nat'l Park than the Feds?

Not clear they even have the money to do it.

Or are you expecting the federal government to subsidize Wyoming, but cede all control?

barfo
 
Not clear to me why the state of Wyoming would be a better steward of the Nat'l Park than the Feds?
I don't know, I can't see Wyoming or Most States letting part of their state burn for grins. Perhaps California but that is about it. Anyway, the Feds sure let Yellowstone burn,
even around Old Faithful. Crap, I don't think it needed cleansing in such a brutal way.

Not clear they even have the money to do it

Assuming that Wyoming would take good care of the Park, how much do you want them to pay for the opportunity to do a better job?

Or are you expecting the federal government to subsidize Wyoming, but cede all control?

Not sure I understand your use of the word subsidize. I would expect the state to come up with an entirely new approach and plan than this mambo jumbo.
User fees might be a lot higher, and environmental groups might be asked to help cover the cost of keeping all those neat creature in the wild. It is not exactly natural. Food has to be shipped in.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...a9y33vT8fYeGsoV-w&sig2=gStRJTHF5TpBM_gKQ0WboQ
 
Not clear they even have the money to do it

But you are right having this question. The Oregon Dunes was once private land, then donated to be state park land as I recall. Then the state broke the agreement of the original
gift and turned it over to the Feds. We have dune buggies among the Snowy Plovers now. Weird how the Feds do differently just a few miles apart. Different agencies though.
 
Not sure I understand your use of the word subsidize.

I meant that Yellowstone is not self-sufficient financially. According to your link it looks like the revenue is something like 10% of the expenses. Exact numbers are probably in there but I only skimmed. Wyoming probably doesn't have any extra money laying around to spend on the park, so most likely they'd spend less.

barfo
 
I meant that Yellowstone is not self-sufficient financially. According to your link it looks like the revenue is something like 10% of the expenses. Exact numbers are probably in there but I only skimmed. Wyoming probably doesn't have any extra money laying around to spend on the park, so most likely they'd spend less.

barfo

Yellowstone is worth more as a geothermal electrical plant. Just a bunch of lazy bears that should be in zoos eating picnic baskets. Drill baby, drill!
 
Yellowstone is worth more as a geothermal electrical plant
No lie sir! That and several more geothermal areas. You don't need to put them on the grid either, just use the power on the spot to generate hydrogen to be trucked out.
Build a real hydrogen engine and Viola! Happy happy environment, every one driving hydrogen cars with water the only waste product. No big grid required.

The Newberry Crater in Oregon would be a prime site too. The cost of electricity at those sites with no grid or fuel required would be quite low.
 
No lie sir! That and several more geothermal areas. You don't need to put them on the grid either, just use the power on the spot to generate hydrogen to be trucked out.
Build a real hydrogen engine and Viola! Happy happy environment, every one driving hydrogen cars with water the only waste product. No big grid required.

The Newberry Crater in Oregon would be a prime site too. The cost of electricity at those sites with no grid or fuel required would be quite low.

Hydrogen powered fracking! I love it! Use clean energy to get us our dirty oil. It will mind fuck the tree huggers.
 
Hydrogen powered fracking! I love it! Use clean energy to get us our dirty oil. It will mind fuck the tree huggers.

Hell man! All that useless western land is all part of the Ring of Fire, many hot spots from Mexican border to the end of the Aleutian chain. Hawaii can jump in too.
I am not pulling this out my ass either, it is doable.
 
I meant that Yellowstone is not self-sufficient financially. According to your link it looks like the revenue is something like 10% of the expenses. Exact numbers are probably in there but I only skimmed. Wyoming probably doesn't have any extra money laying around to spend on the park, so most likely they'd spend less.

barfo

Talk about living beyond one's means...

The state can charge (more) for visitors and/or spend less.

Government spending less. What a concept.
 
But you are right having this question. The Oregon Dunes was once private land, then donated to be state park land as I recall. Then the state broke the agreement of the original
gift and turned it over to the Feds. We have dune buggies among the Snowy Plovers now. Weird how the Feds do differently just a few miles apart. Different agencies though.
Some feds probably own dune buggies
 
No lie sir! That and several more geothermal areas. You don't need to put them on the grid either, just use the power on the spot to generate hydrogen to be trucked out.
Build a real hydrogen engine and Viola! Happy happy environment, every one driving hydrogen cars with water the only waste product. No big grid required.

The Newberry Crater in Oregon would be a prime site too. The cost of electricity at those sites with no grid or fuel required would be quite low.
I always thought Kilaoea Volcano on the Big Island was wasted energy...13 vents spewing all that energy 24/7...always wondered why they didn't burn unwanted stuff up in the lava instead of landfilling it. There's a ton of geothermal energy on that island that is just spilling into the ocean
 
Talk about living beyond one's means...

The state can charge (more) for visitors and/or spend less.

Government spending less. What a concept.

Yes. We could raise visitor fees by a factor of 10. Or we could stop maintaining the park.

We could do those things even without transferring title to the land, however. If we wanted to, which we don't.

barfo
 
Yes. We could raise visitor fees by a factor of 10. Or we could stop maintaining the park.

We could do those things even without transferring title to the land, however. If we wanted to, which we don't.

barfo

The park doesn't need costly maintenance.

Just because you spend $500/month going to the movies doesn't mean you must spend $500 going to the movies.
Metaphor.
 
The park doesn't need costly maintenance.

Just because you spend $500/month going to the movies doesn't mean you must spend $500 going to the movies.
Metaphor.

Sure, no reason to maintain parks. That's a good common sense approach. A park that gets hundreds of thousands of visitors each year doesn't need maintenance.

barfo
 
Sure, no reason to maintain parks. That's a good common sense approach. A park that gets hundreds of thousands of visitors each year doesn't need maintenance.

barfo

Charge the visitors a fee. Open as much of the park as the fees support. They will support plenty.

Open a Starbucks and the sales tax covers even more.
 
This:

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2016/01/malheur_standoff_local_control.html

"If I was a smart rancher, I'd realize I was getting a very good deal from the federal government," said George Wuerthner, an ecologist and board member of the Western Watersheds Project, an advocacy group that focuses on the negative impacts of livestock grazing on public lands.

Yet ranchers say the grazing fee alone doesn't tell the whole story. They say federal lands are often less productive and they face higher costs to maintain water pipelines, fencing and public access – costs that erase the difference in the public and private grazing fees.

"Environmentalists continually hit on us about the fees issue," said Bob Skinner, past president of the Oregon Cattlemen's Association and head of its public lands committee. "It's like comparing apples to boxcars. With public lands, we do everything. The BLM does nothing."

Costs, ranchers say, are usually not the main issue when conflict arises. Some describe a time-consuming and unproductive decision-making process to get even the simplest things done.

Anderson described a four-year ordeal trying to get federal approval to install a fence along a 10-mile stretch of highway so his cows wouldn't wander onto the road and kill someone. It never happened, so he can only use half that range. A similar process with the state took a year, he said.

He says it's a similar process drilling a well, or watching combustible undergrowth build up on range that he's been restricted from using to protect sage grouse habitat, only to watch massive wildfires burn through "more sage grouse habitat than you could re-establish in a lifetime."

Treetop Ranches is the largest leaseholder on state grazing lands, and Anderson says he's happy to pay 10 times more in grazing fees to the State of Oregon for the certainty and efficiency he gets in return.

Stephanie Venell and her husband own the C Bar Ranch in Crane, and have similar frustrations. They've aggressively managed an infestation of Medusa Head weeds on their own property, but can't come to any agreement on how to deal with the problem on their federal allotment other than limiting more and more grazing.
 

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