More from Nate regarding Oden

[Jayps15]

Well, if you look at the chart presented above - you will see that in the first quarter, when Oden was on the court - there were 5 plays for Oden, 5 for Roy, 4 for LMA, 1 for Blake and 2 for Outlaw. During that time Oden had 3 turn-overs, 1 assist and 1 miss.

Sounds to me like they saw that Hayes was giving him a real hard time on offense in the first quarter - and decided to let him concentrate on the defense for the rest of the game instead of getting frustrated with his botched offense. And guess what - it worked. He did great on defense and the team won by 9 points.

Look at that, Nate had an in-game adjustment and "the clueless" are still upset.

Good on Nate for doing the in-game adjustment, and good on Oden for being positive with his game and his success on defense.

That chart isn't the number of plays run for players, it's simply a measure of how many offensive possessions Oden actually physically had the ball in his hands. The result column from which you've divined that Roy had 5 plays run for him is a completely different category. It's likely that Roy, at one point or another during the teams possession, touched the ball on at least 14/17 plays.

 

[Nikolokolus]

To be honest the most infuriating thing about Nate is his aversion to actually passing the ball to the roller on a pick and roll. He made Joel an absolute non-factor on offense since he's been here because he refuses to use the one offensive set that Joel could complete with Damon on any consistent basis. When you have a 7'0 guy like Greg who has okay hands, and can cover a lot of ground it's pretty insane that we don't do a pick and roll and give it to him at least a few times a game.

Thank you!

 

[andalusian]

That chart isn't the number of plays run for players, it's simply a measure of how many offensive possessions Oden actually physically had the ball in his hands. The result column from which you've divined that Roy had 5 plays run for him is a completely different category. It's likely that Roy, at one point or another during the teams possession, touched the ball on at least 14/17 plays.

That chart confirms what Quick had in his chat based on his conversation with Oden and Nate. The fact of the matter is that Oden had 3 turn-overs in 5 "touches". According to Quick (if I understood that part - I had a phone call when it ran) - Roy actually had less plays than Oden in this opening stint, and one of the Roy touche/plays was actually a botched play by Oden out of position that he had to take over - so by design they had more plays for Oden than Roy and LMA in that first stint.

So... there you go.

I actually thought, before this Quick chat - that they did not go enough into Oden - but after hearing that claim - went and looked at the chart mentioned - and it proves that claim (or at least, seems to prove it, as I do not have a replay in front of my eyes - so I have to work with "reduced" information).

Anyway - it sounds as if Nate made an adjustment, Oden does not think there was a problem - and we still won. So...

 

[J~Rush]

Oh if only we could go back to Z-Bo, Darius, and Telfair.

 

[Jayps15]

Do people think Greg does a good job of rolling after he sets a screen? Do they think he has good hands? In my opinion he's below average in both areas, yet I'm happy to see improvement.

I noticed Andre Miller struggling to get Greg the ball in the P&R. We know it's not because he doesn't know how to run a pick and roll.

Does LMA do a good job of rolling to the basket? Does he have good hands?
What about Joel?

I'd say LMA is average rolling to the basket and has really good hands, and yet he rarely sees anything off the pick n roll.

With Joel he's actually very good at going to the basket after the pick, but he's got hands of freakin stone, and yet he does actually see a handful of PnR's. Of course he was good at that before Nate got here...

 

[RR7]

So did Nate tell Joel to not roll to the basket hard, not to catch the passes, or for players not to throw the ball to the open man? I'm curious which of these Nate decided on.

 

[Tince]

Does LMA do a good job of rolling to the basket? Does he have good hands?
What about Joel?

I'd say LMA is average rolling to the basket and has really good hands, and yet he rarely sees anything off the pick n roll.

With Joel he's actually very good at going to the basket after the pick, but he's got hands of freakin stone, and yet he does actually see a handful of PnR's. Of course he was good at that before Nate got here...

LMA gets a ton of points off of the P&R, but he tends to slip instead of roll.

I think Joel rolls much better than Greg, and despite being a less skilled offensive player, I would guess he scores on a higher percentage of P&R rolls than Greg.

 

[Ed O]

You said it best yourself in another thread . . . the fact he was "one of the best center prospects in a decade" is really irrelevant to what he is today. If he has a top center post up game, feed him the ball. If he doesn't, slowly work him into the offense. It's not about what he was as a prospect but what he can do now. (Didn't you raise that point, which i I thought was a good point . . . I know you raised in in the context of if they drafted him for defense but he is an offensive Juggernaut, then adapt. I agree but thinks it goes both ways.)

It matters because, unless he's markedly worse than he was when he was drafted, he still has potential and, in my opinion, the best way to get him to reach that potential is to have him involved in the offense.

Not to feed him every time down the floor, but also not to AVOID giving him the ball because they want him to "focus on defense".

Ed O.

 

[Idog1976]

It'd be interesting if Nate could get his perimeter players to be as defensive as he is when he's questioned about these things.

LMAO repped for truth! Argh I must spread it around some more before giving it to Sebastian Express again...

 

[Jayps15]

That chart confirms what Quick had in his chat based on his conversation with Oden and Nate. The fact of the matter is that Oden had 3 turn-overs in 5 "touches". According to Quick (if I understood that part - I had a phone call when it ran) - Roy actually had less plays than Oden in this opening stint, and one of the Roy touche/plays was actually a botched play by Oden out of position that he had to take over - so by design they had more plays for Oden than Roy and LMA in that first stint.

So... there you go.

I actually thought, before this Quick chat - that they did not go enough into Oden - but after hearing that claim - went and looked at the chart mentioned - and it proves that claim (or at least, seems to prove it, as I do not have a replay in front of my eyes - so I have to work with "reduced" information).

Anyway - it sounds as if Nate made an adjustment, Oden does not think there was a problem - and we still won. So...

Roy doesn't need plays run for him, all he needs is the ball in his hand and he can create his own shot. He had far more touches than Greg in that 1st quarter (as it should be, I'm not saying pound it to Greg indiscriminately). Those numbers on that chart translate to Greg having the ball in his hands a grand total of about 15seconds in the 1st quarter, all of which he was stationary and wide open for pressure. That's not putting Greg in a position to succeed in my book.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

It matters because, unless he's markedly worse than he was when he was drafted, he still has potential and, in my opinion, the best way to get him to reach that potential is to have him involved in the offense.

Not to feed him every time down the floor, but also not to AVOID giving him the ball because they want him to "focus on defense".

Ed O.

My original reaction to this was they drafted hin for defense, which speaks nothing to his potential about offense and therefore you can't assume he has large potentail on offense. But factoring in his pre-season, I see why he has potential for offense.

Nate also told Travis not to focus on offense and to focus only on defense (straight from Traivs). I don't think all this means that Nate wants the team to avoid Oden or Outlaw on offense . . . I read Nate's statement as coming from a coach who is strongly defensive minded and is just trying to answer the media scrutiny about Oden's touches quickly and simply. It takes pressure off Oden and the idea of forcing the ball to Oden to appease fans.

I would be shocked if behind close doors, Nate is conducting practice and implementing an offense that avoids getting GO the ball.

Simple fact is good things weren't happening when GO was getting the ball against the Rockets. I see nothing wrong with moving away from Oden that night and trying again this game. I suspect Oden will get five touches in the first quarter again tonight.

 

[andalusian]

Roy doesn't need plays run for him, all he needs is the ball in his hand and he can create his own shot. He had far more touches than Greg in that 1st quarter (as it should be, I'm not saying pound it to Greg indiscriminately). Those numbers on that chart translate to Greg having the ball in his hands a grand total of about 15seconds in the 1st quarter, all of which he was stationary and wide open for pressure. That's not putting Greg in a position to succeed in my book.

Greg is a center. He does not need to have the ball in his hand for more than 15 seconds if he gets it in a good position and does something good with it. He got it 5 times, had one assist, one miss and 3 turn-overs. What else do you want to do with him - give him the ball after the half and have him direct traffic?

And Roy, because he handles the ball has the ball more in his hands - but if the team has plays designed for someone else - is just a facilitator. If the guy that is supposed to finish the play has problems with it (as Greg did in that first stint) - it is not a surprise they go away from him.

 

[yakbladder]

Umm..suppose KP believes this as well - about focusing on defense for Oden. Amazing that all of you believe Nate can do whatever he wants without ANY questioning or intrusion from above. I think we all remember the pressure Natterson could insert when necessary. I'm not saying KP is the type to do that, just that he could be.

 

[noknobs]

I was quick to jump on Nate after game 1 for how little Oden was involved in the offense and his comments continue to be frustrating. However, I'm hoping it's all meant to just put less pressure on Oden early in the season, so I'm going to give it more than one game and hope the situation improves.

But Nate's really acting weird about this. Just because a guy may be a force on defense, doesn't mean you have to ignore him on offense. If they'd use him correctly he could be a major force down low. And as some in the national media have mentioned recently, and probably will again tonight, we need more of a presence down low on offense, especially when the post season rolls around.

 

[BBert]

I'm saying that Joel, before Nate got here, actually wasn't a non-factor on offense like he is regarded as now. He wasn't a force, he wasn't some dominating post scorer, but other teams had to respect that Joel could actually catch the ball at the rim on a pick and roll. When Nate got here we pretty much cut that play to Joel out of the proverbial basketball picture. We're much more a pick and pop team, and we're ignoring an option that would at least make teams stick with Joel on offense more than they do now. The same should be applied to Greg, and even moreso.

Remember Joel's 18 point 18 rebound game against the Warriors? The team was running the Pick and Roll for him that night, and Joel showed he was pretty good at it other nights too. Now -- it's just not an option. And G.O. would be even better at it. Why the P&R is not part of our offense I don't understand. But then again, I'm one of those 'clueless' fans Nate speaks of.

 

[RR7]

Wait, the pick and roll isn't part of our offense? It's odd that a lot of the complaints with Nate is that other than the Roy iso, that is the only play he runs. So either we NEVER run it, or we ALWAYS run it. Fun.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Um, an integral part of the pick-and-roll is the -and-roll part. We don't do that much. We do run a lot of the pick-and-slip, or pick-and-pop, or pick-and-drive-against-the-bigger-guy.

So yes, we hardly ever run the pick and roll, and yes, we do initiate a large amount of our offense by the center setting a pick at the top of the key? Better?

 

[BBert]

Pick and Pop doesn't count. I guess in fairness, I do see the big guys roll, it just seems like they never get the ball. Is it because they don't execute it right? I don't know, but last season I saw the guards stare right at a rolling G.O. a number of times without a hint they thought about giving him the ball.

 

[BBert]

Um, an integral part of the pick-and-roll is the -and-roll part. We don't do that much. We do run a lot of the pick-and-slip, or pick-and-pop, or pick-and-drive-against-the-bigger-guy.

So yes, we hardly ever run the pick and roll, and yes, we do initiate a large amount of our offense by the center setting a pick at the top of the key? Better?

You're better at this than me.

 

[RR7]

That seems like an issue too, then. Some see us never making the pass, others see us as never rolling. It seems more apparent that it becomes at times what the viewer wants it to be. Or, we sometimes roll, sometimes we don't. We can't roll all the time, that would be too predictable. We can't not roll all the time. That would be predictable.

Sorry, I'm not at all trying to say Nate is perfect. I know too often in these discussions, opposite sides seem to take those extreme positions for the other. Oh, you think Nate is the worst coach ever, oh, you think Nate can do no wrong. There are manythings I wish Nate would do differently. I want Greg to get more opportunities. If we win every game this year, and Greg averages two points, I'm not going to care about his points. I think ultimately, if we stall as a franchise, the necessary changes will be made to bring in a new coach. I don't place all of the praise on Nate for us succeeding, but I also don't place all of the blame on him when we lose. We don't know what the outcome would have been if greg continued to get more touches. We do know what the outcome was with him getting the touches he got. We have seen a progression in our franchise from a 21 win team to what we are now. We have seen an individual progression in Roy from a player most around the league, and I would assume many in here guessed was probably at best a low end #1 option/high end #2 option to a top 7 player in the entire league. Does he get there with a different coach? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe a different coach would have pushed for LMA to be more of a focal point, and not instilled that confidence in Roy. I don't know. Nobody here does. We aren't a perfect team, but by that same measure, we have not stopped or stalled in our progression yet, which is what, I think, bugs many of the Nate supporters in here.

 

[Jayps15]

Greg is a center. He does not need to have the ball in his hand for more than 15 seconds if he gets it in a good position and does something good with it. He got it 5 times, had one assist, one miss and 3 turn-overs. What else do you want to do with him - give him the ball after the half and have him direct traffic?

I made the 15seconds total remark to illustrate how little the ball was actually in his hands during those 5 'plays', you had made 2 posts hinting at lament that Roy wasn't involved as much as Oden, when that's clearly not the case. Roy has the ball in his hands so much he can pick and choose when and where he wants to run plays for himself, Greg doesn't have that luxury.

What else I wanted them to do with him I thought I had made abundantly clear with posts in several of these threads, high PnR, baseline PnR, Backscreens, Downscreens, alley oops, or that much hyped high low game with LMA. A stationary Oden with his back to the basket is an inefficient Oden. He's not that skilled at this *yet* and he's a sitting duck for pressure, it's also incredibly predictable, as soon as the entry pass is thrown every player on the defense knows what's up. Get him the ball in motion, catch and finish, use that height and athleticism to his advantage and don't solely rely on his bulk.

And Roy, because he handles the ball has the ball more in his hands - but if the team has plays designed for someone else - is just a facilitator. If the guy that is supposed to finish the play has problems with it (as Greg did in that first stint) - it is not a surprise they go away from him.

The plays they were running for Greg in the 1st quarter were not catch and finish plays, the creator of the scoring opportunity when Greg has his back to the basket is Greg, not Roy or anyone else. Right now Greg is still raw at that so he should only see 3-4 or so of these looks per game, more if he's firing on all cylinders and less if he looks off, but that doesn't mean that you can't run some other semblance of offense with Oden involved in it.

 

[andalusian]

I made the 15seconds total remark to illustrate how little the ball was actually in his hands during those 5 'plays', you had made 2 posts hinting at lament that Roy wasn't involved as much as Oden, when that's clearly not the case. Roy has the ball in his hands so much he can pick and choose when and where he wants to run plays for himself, Greg doesn't have that luxury.

I did not say not as involved. I said the plays were not for him. There is a difference.

And of course Greg does not have the luxury, he can not handle the ball to have this luxury. Magic Johnson played Center in the finals and he had the luxury, because he could handle the ball.

What else I wanted them to do with him I thought I had made abundantly clear with posts in several of these threads, high PnR, baseline PnR, Backscreens, Downscreens, alley oops, or that much hyped high low game with LMA. A stationary Oden with his back to the basket is an inefficient Oden. He's not that skilled at this *yet* and he's a sitting duck for pressure, it's also incredibly predictable, as soon as the entry pass is thrown every player on the defense knows what's up. Get him the ball in motion, catch and finish, use that height and athleticism to his advantage and don't solely rely on his bulk.

I actually agree with this - but you notice that there was mentioned of Oden losing his place on some of the sets that were supposed to be for him. One wonders if these were these sets?

The plays they were running for Greg in the 1st quarter were not catch and finish plays, the creator of the scoring opportunity when Greg has his back to the basket is Greg, not Roy or anyone else.

Greg, with 6 inches height advantage and who knows how much weight advantage should do that against a smaller player. Where Greg has the advantage moving is against slower centers, not against Hayes - a smaller, faster player than him.

 

[RR7]

I really feel that if we gave the ball in to Greg to back down Hayes, and tried to do it early and often, Greg would have been on the bench with two quick fouls, because Hayes would have hit the deck after the second bump.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Nate McMillan is trying his hardest to:

-Turn Rudy Fernandez into James Jones
-Turn Greg Oden into Ben Wallace/Theo Ratliff

 

[Tince]

Remember Joel's 18 point 18 rebound game against the Warriors? The team was running the Pick and Roll for him that night, and Joel showed he was pretty good at it other nights too. Now -- it's just not an option. And G.O. would be even better at it. Why the P&R is not part of our offense I don't understand. But then again, I'm one of those 'clueless' fans Nate speaks of.

You said it

 

[Mediocre Man]

Remember Joel's 18 point 18 rebound game against the Warriors? The team was running the Pick and Roll for him that night, and Joel showed he was pretty good at it other nights too. Now -- it's just not an option. And G.O. would be even better at it. Why the P&R is not part of our offense I don't understand. But then again, I'm one of those 'clueless' fans Nate speaks of.

Here is the problem I have with Nate's comment, and a lot of peoples opinions.

Just because we aren't NBA coaches, does not mean we don't know as much as one might. For example Nate has been a coach for 11 years, and 9 as a head coach. What makes it automatic that he would know more about coaching than someone who has coached both as an assistant and as a head coach for over twice as long? Someone who has been very successful at the highschool and Jr college level.

 

[Tince]

Here is the problem I have with Nate's comment, and a lot of peoples opinions.

Just because we aren't NBA coaches, does not mean we don't know as much as one might. For example Nate has been a coach for 11 years, and 9 as a head coach. What makes it automatic that he would know more about coaching than someone who has coached both as an assistant and as a head coach for over twice as long? Someone who has been very successful at the highschool and Jr college level.

There is no guarantee a CFO is better with numbers than a 7-11 retail clerk.

However, odds are when you are coaching in the best league in the world, and the majority of people who cover, coach, and play in the league consider you one of the better coaches in the league, you probably know your stuff.

My biggest beef are with the people who say stuff like, "Nate doesn't run any post up sets." "Nate doesn't know how to defend the pick and roll." "All we run is ISO and pick and rolls." I have luxury of watching our games broken down by play type and we run more motion sets than the majority of teams in the league. We run flex that gives us two or three looks into the post. We run a basic high-low screen across play to get the ball in the post. I guess I'm overly sensitive to people who say Nate doesn't do something, when in reality, they don't understand the game well enough to be identifying plays.

Assuming you have coached at the HS level, may I ask you what you think of the parents who think they know how to coach your team better than you? On average, do you assume that parent knows more than you?

 

[KingSpeed]

Please look, because that has to be up there with the most TOs by a center on opening day . . . whether or not the team would pass the center the ball.

Opening game doe not seem like the type of game posters should be complaining about Oden getting the ball. I mean 7 TO is alot for any player on any game day . . . much lesss a center who never touched the ball.

If Outlaw had 7 turnovers, there wouldn't be a single poster in here coming to his defense. But so many come to Oden's defense.

In here...

Oden: favorite player
Outlaw: least favorite player

And production or lack of production doesn't matter.

 

[KingSpeed]

Also- if people are going to discount some of Oden's turnovers, let's discount many of Oden's blocks. I can think of two separate possessions in which Oden blocked a shot but the Rockets still scored.

 

[Mediocre Man]

If Outlaw had 7 turnovers, there wouldn't be a single poster in here coming to his defense. But so many come to Oden's defense.

In here...

Oden: favorite player
Outlaw: least favorite player

And production or lack of production doesn't matter.

Production like PER?

Oden had a much higher PER than Travis did last year.