Muhammad Ali died

[Mediocre Man]

That's the problem. We don't know what's "the good fight" most of the time. Our country meddles constantly in other countries. Would you fight if your brother was being an asshole and someone called him on it? The good fight has become murky and hard to determine since the end of the WWII.

I don't know, I am an only child. I would however fight if he was fighting for his country and being an asshole

 

[Denny Crane]

Oh please, Denny. What the hell does "until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on" mean? It means nothing! I can be indefinite, or until Trump decides, or what? And total and complete shutdown, when asked, included US citizens returning from abroad. Then it didn't.
When Obama said there are Muslim sports heroes and Trump said "What sport is he talking about, and who?” he was not challenging whether Obama had knowledge of people like Ali, Olajuwon, Abdul-Jabbar et al. The clear context was contempt for the idea that a Muslim could be a sports hero.

A stricter entrance test, background checks, check their travel record to assure they're not coming from terrorist locations, etc. He said CONGRESS needs to figure it out.

And he was asking who Obama thinks are the muslim sports heroes. Maybe the likes of Ali wouldn't be on his list, maybe they would.

 

[riverman]

That's the problem. We don't know what's "the good fight" most of the time. Our country meddles constantly in other countries. Would you fight if your brother was being an asshole and someone called him on it? The good fight has become murky and hard to determine since the end of the WWII.

Back when I was going to get drafted it was all about our arch enemy the commies...that was the schpiel...we thought it was the good fight until we actually saw the reality and that was...this is none of my fucking business. The Chinese tried to conquer them for 300 years and gave up and they live right next door. The French were there 75 years and they gave up...we weren't really there to win...

 

[Denny Crane]

Oh, I think the exact same way. I guess I was raised to fight the good fight, or whatever? To me, that means if my brother is fighting, I would fight as well.

If my brother is refusing to fight an unjust war, I would support his right to refuse as well.

 

[Natebishop3]

Back when I was going to get drafted it was all about our arch enemy the commies...that was the schpiel...we thought it was the good fight until we actually saw the reality and that was...this is none of my fucking business. The Chinese tried to conquer them for 300 years and gave up and they live right next door. The French were there 75 years and they gave up...we weren't really there to win...

That's because winning is hard to define.

How do you win that war? If the goal was to go in and just crush the North Vietnamese, well, that could have been achieved fairly quickly. Unfortunately that wasn't the goal. We wanted to try to copy what we did in Korea. We wanted to push them back above an imaginary line and keep them there. That's not really winning because there's no timeline. As we have seen in the past 13 years, if you go into a place and you have no exit strategy, you end up with unnecessary casualties and a drawn out occupation. With Iraq, we tried to copy what we did in Germany. Conquer and then aid in building a democracy. The problem with that strategy was that we were trying to essentially start from scratch because that region hasn't adopted western government. It's going to take a lot longer than a decade to change things in the Middle East, and I have always felt like that kind of change has to come from within.

 

[Mediocre Man]

If my brother is refusing to fight an unjust war, I would support his right to refuse as well.

Ya, I get that as well. What if you had 4 brothers and 2 decided to fight and 2 said no?

My stance would be to go fight because, while I may die, the chances of survival have to go up even to the enth % for my brothers if I am there

 

[Denny Crane]

Ya, I get that as well. What if you had 4 brothers and 2 decided to fight and 2 said no?

My stance would be to go fight because, while I may die, the chances of survival have to go up even to the enth % for my brothers if I am there

I would support those who chose to go and those who chose to refuse. There's no rule requiring one or the other.

 

[Denny Crane]

That's because winning is hard to define.

How do you win that war? If the goal was to go in and just crush the North Vietnamese, well, that could have been achieved fairly quickly. Unfortunately that wasn't the goal. We wanted to try to copy what we did in Korea. We wanted to push them back above an imaginary line and keep them there. That's not really winning because there's no timeline. As we have seen in the past 13 years, if you go into a place and you have no exit strategy, you end up with unnecessary casualties and a drawn out occupation. With Iraq, we tried to copy what we did in Germany. Conquer and then aid in building a democracy. The problem with that strategy was that we were trying to essentially start from scratch because that region hasn't adopted western government. It's going to take a lot longer than a decade to change things in the Middle East, and I have always felt like that kind of change has to come from within.

Declare victory and tuck tail. Like we did in Vietnam and Iraq.

 

[Natebishop3]

Ya, I get that as well. What if you had 4 brothers and 2 decided to fight and 2 said no?

My stance would be to go fight because, while I may die, the chances of survival have to go up even to the enth % for my brothers if I am there

Or you have the potential for this to happen....

http://b-29s-over-korea.com/SullivanBrothers/FiveSullivanBrothers.html

As a direct result of the Sullivans' deaths, the US War Department adopted the Sole Survivor Policy.

The Navy named two destroyers The Sullivans to honor the brothers: The Sullivans (DDG-68) and The Sullivans (DD-537). These were the first American navy ships ever to be named after more than one person. The motto for both ships was the very motto of the Sullivan brothers, "We stick together."

Al Sullivan's son, James, served on board the first USS The Sullivans. His grandmother christened the first ship. The second USS The Sullivans was christened by Al's granddaughter Kelly Ann Sullivan Loughren.

Thomas and Alleta Sullivan toured the country raising war bonds and asked that none of their sons died in vain. However the grief overwhelmed Thomas and he died in 1947 a broken man.

 

[crandc]

Where in anything I have ever typed or spoken have I said anything to make you think I am more bothered by one than the other?

Yes. You specifically mentioned your dislike of conscientious objectors but did not mention war supporters who avoided service.
When a person explicitly mentions one thing but leaves out a related one, it's natural to conclude that the thing mentioned excites stronger feelings.

 

[Mediocre Man]

I would support those who chose to go and those who chose to refuse. There's no rule requiring one or the other.

No, there isn't.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Yes. You specifically mentioned your dislike of conscientious objectors but did not mention war supporters who avoided service.
When a person explicitly mentions one thing but leaves out a related one, it's natural to conclude that the thing mentioned excites stronger feelings.

Because I wasn't talking about that. You assumed

 

[riverman]

That's because winning is hard to define.

How do you win that war? If the goal was to go in and just crush the North Vietnamese, well, that could have been achieved fairly quickly. Unfortunately that wasn't the goal. We wanted to try to copy what we did in Korea. We wanted to push them back above an imaginary line and keep them there. That's not really winning because there's no timeline. As we have seen in the past 13 years, if you go into a place and you have no exit strategy, you end up with unnecessary casualties and a drawn out occupation. With Iraq, we tried to copy what we did in Germany. Conquer and then aid in building a democracy. The problem with that strategy was that we were trying to essentially start from scratch because that region hasn't adopted western government. It's going to take a lot longer than a decade to change things in the Middle East, and I have always felt like that kind of change has to come from within.

Nixon tried to justify it because he feared Russia and China having a port there. We had bases in the Phillipines, Taiwan, Okinawa, South Korea and we were trying to surround them and control the Pacific Rim and make friends with the local warlords like Marcos.

 

[Natebishop3]

Nixon tried to justify it because he feared Russia and China having a port there. We had bases in the Phillipines, Taiwan, Okinawa, South Korea and we were trying to surround them and control the Pacific Rim and make friends with the local warlords like Marcos.

The war was there long before Nixon. Kennedy started it, LBJ escalated it, and Nixon got stuck with the bill.

 

[dviss1]

If those guys are "draft dodgers" then so is Bernie Sanders.

http://www.snopes.com/bernie-sanders-dodged-draft/

You seriously gotta be kidding me. Comparing Bernie to Nugent?

Yeah no...

Now back to Ali. Stop derailing the thread with that crap.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

Are you claiming Ali was able to claim his stance on non-violence because of the Brotherhood of Islam? The group that wanted Japan to kill the white devil in WW2? Same group that killed Malcolm X?

He did not convert to a mainstream Islamic faith until 1975.

 

[riverman]

The war was there long before Nixon. Kennedy started it, LBJ escalated it, and Nixon got stuck with the bill.

Actually it was never called a war under all three presidents...I was there on the Nixon end of things..there's a reason he went to China to meet Mao. Nixon didn't start it, but that was one of his justifications for keeping it up.

 

[Denny Crane]

You seriously gotta be kidding me. Comparing Bernie to Nugent?

Yeah no...

Now back to Ali. Stop derailing the thread with that crap.

Yeah. Yeah.

If you want to play that card, you have to include Sanders. And Bill "I didn't inhale" Clinton.

 

[Denny Crane]

Actually it was never called a war under all three presidents...I was there on the Nixon end of things..there's a reason he went to China to meet Mao. Nixon didn't start it, but that was one of his justifications for keeping it up.

Nixon wanted to outright win it.

A lot of things got in the way of that. Like Congress not enabling him to bomb Vietnam's neighbors to go after the terrorists where they hid.

I don't think our hearts were in it, either.

He did run on a secret plan to end the war.

 

[Denny Crane]

I had to google to find out if there are any current/active pro athletes who are Muslim. Aminu is one, and he came to mind right away without the search. There are a couple dozen in all the sports combined.

Who can you name without cheating (looking it up)? Active players.

 

[riverman]

I had to google to find out if there are any current/active pro athletes who are Muslim. Aminu is one, and he came to mind right away without the search. There are a couple dozen in all the sports combined.

Who can you name without cheating (looking it up)? Active players.

I'd guess Enis Kanter for one

 

[Natebishop3]

Nazr Mohammed

 

[Natebishop3]

Wasn't Dion Waiters claiming to be Muslim?

 

[Orion Bailey]

Abhul Fareef? How do you spell it? Probably the most famed because he changed during the season I think didn't he? Shareef abduhl Fareef? I cant seem to get it right to find a good google search. He had something with one of his eyes. a tick or lazy eye or something.

 

[Denny Crane]

Nazr Mohammed

Is he still active?

 

[Denny Crane]

Abhul Fareef? How do you spell it? Probably the most famed because he changed during the season I think didn't he? Shareef abduhl Fareef? I cant seem to get it right to find a good google search. He had something with one of his eyes. a tick or lazy eye or something.

Sharif Abdur Rahim.

He is not active.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

Shaq and Rasheed Wallace are Muslim?

 

[Denny Crane]

Shaq and Rasheed Wallace are Muslim?

Not active anyway.

 

[e_blazer]

Aminu and Turkeyglue.

 

[e_blazer]

Asik?