OT Musk/Twitter - The Great Experiment

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tlongII said:
I don't think you understand the issue.
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If importing cheap uncompetitive labor to a country where people can’t find jobs is your answer, then you sir do not understand the issue.
 
jonnyboy said:
If importing cheap uncompetitive labor to a country where people can’t find jobs is your answer, then you sir do not understand the issue.
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That's not what is happening. These are people that possess skills in technology that we don't have enough of in the US.
 
JFizzleRaider said:
It's too late. What will turning on him do? He already got what he wanted. He can't be voted in another term.

Maga is gonna realize real quick he doesn't give a fuck about any of ya'll.

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I do think he cares about how he is perceived, as to wether that would sway him, I don't know. But if he bungles this issue and doesn't follow through on what he's said, it'll set up the Democrats nicely in 2028, assuming they don't run a terrible candidate like Harris.

The Dems are going to need to up their game. If you look at the projected electoral shift in 2030, Red wall states are gaining and Blue wall states are losing.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/how-congressional-maps-could-change-2030
 
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tlongII said:
That's not what is happening. These are people that possess skills in technology that we don't have enough of in the US.
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Then fix the problem at home or your corporation can suffer the consequences. Period.
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
You might want get outta the woods and see where the rest of civilization is at.
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Also, I work at an engineering firm and travel all over the country. So this is just a dumb cheap jab.
I don’t even have a degree and I was TRAINED to do a very technical job by businesses willing to invest in their own country and community in lieu of hiring cheap labor to save a buck.
 
jonnyboy said:
There is no reason Americans can’t be trained to do any job anyone else can do. Period. Companies don’t want to pay for it. Indians aren’t inherently smarter, harder working or come from a superior culture. They come from a shithole and are willing to work for nothing and greedy American companies are willing to fuck over Americans by exploiting that fact. And you are squirming trying to support this indentured servitude that fucks over Americans just to win an argument. Americans work more hours than any other country hands down, and built a country the rest of the world strives to through innovation. So no, you can’t just chalk it up to “lazy stupid Americans”. Have some faith in your country and its future.
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Slow the fuck down Bucky. I'm not calling Indians smarter than Americans, or any more hard working. If I had my way we would eliminate the H-1B program completely. I too believe it has been (and is still being) abused. We are on the same page up to that point, so quit allowing your innate anger to blind you to what I am trying to say. The American Education System sucks. Plain and simple. There is are two reasons MAGAts want to eliminate the Department of Education altogether instead of trying to reform it to meet the needs of this country through its own citizens. The base wants an "educational" system that promotes their cultural values and viewpoints at the expense of everyone else, and the oligarchs want an American public uneducated so that they can bring in these underpaid "slaves" you keep ranting about. so don't expect the H-1B program to disappear. And if you lived in a shithole, you'd probably do whatever you had to do to improve your lot, even if it meant taking low paid jobs in other countries. And stop buying into the main stream media narrative (which you seem top utterly loath when it doesn't agree with your worldview) that American are somehow smarter, more hardworking and more innovative than any other country. Nor are we particualrly looked up to any longer and it's only going to get worse going forward. Right now, China and Taiwan (and likely S. Korea) are running rings around us. We are not what we once were, and the way we are headed is in the opposite direction of where we need to be going. And I lost any last shred of faith I had in my country and it's future on November 5, 2024.......
 
jonnyboy said:
Also, I work at an engineering firm and travel all over the country. So this is just a dumb cheap jab.
I don’t even have a degree and I was TRAINED to do a very technical job by businesses willing to invest in their own country and community in lieu of hiring cheap labor to save a buck.
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Did they train you how to write ABAP code?
 
jonnyboy said:
Also, I work at an engineering firm and travel all over the country. So this is just a dumb cheap jab.
I don’t even have a degree and I was TRAINED to do a very technical job by businesses willing to invest in their own country and community in lieu of hiring cheap labor to save a buck.
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Sounds like your employer is an American unicorn.....plus, you were willing to learn. Too many Americans these days are putting too many conditions on what they want to learn and what type of work they are willing to do. Simple facts. Shit, I just did a cheesy part time gig at Ace Hardware, and it is amazing how many people want to argue about the inarguable, like being at work on time and staying until the end of the shift. We had a revolving door. $15/hour wasn't enough for them to quit playing video games and get off the couch. I didn't have a degree either, and I learned to perform a very technical job because I wanted to learn, grow and get ahead. Again, too many Americans think they can pick and choose despite not having the education and skills, or interest in gaining them. And then it's the gubmint's fault when they're sucking hind tit.

As to your last sentence.....one minute you're trashing American companies for abusing the H-1B program and then you turn around and claim businesses are willing "to invest in their own country and community". So which is it? Pick a side......
 
Phatguysrule said:
From everything i've read you can learn to write ABAP code in a couple months pretty easily...
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Eh, you might be right. Probably not a good example. I think you need a background in Computer Engineering to be really effective at it though. Uncle Cliffy is right about why we don't have enough of the talent in the US.
 
tlongII said:
Eh, you might be right. Probably not a good example. I think you need a background in Computer Engineering to be really effective at it though. Uncle Cliffy is right about why we don't have enough of the talent in the US.
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Definitely would want a programming background... but programmers aren't really in short supply, are they?
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
Sounds like your employer is an American unicorn.....plus, you were willing to learn. Too many Americans these days are putting too many conditions on what they want to learn and what type of work they are willing to do. Simple facts. Shit, I just did a cheesy part time gig at Ace Hardware, and it is amazing how many people want to argue about the inarguable, like being at work on time and staying until the end of the shift. We had a revolving door. $15/hour wasn't enough for them to quit playing video games and get off the couch. I didn't have a degree either, and I learned to perform a very technical job because I wanted to learn, grow and get ahead. Again, too many Americans think they can pick and choose despite not having the education and skills, or interest in gaining them. And then it's the gubmint's fault when they're sucking hind tit.

As to your last sentence.....one minute you're trashing American companies for abusing the H-1B program and then you turn around and claim businesses are willing "to invest in their own country and community". So which is it? Pick a side......
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$15 per hour ($1800 per month after taxes) isn't even enough to pay rent (okay, barely enough)... you're basically paying high school kids part time. Nobody serious is sticking anywhere for $15 per hour.
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
As to your last sentence.....one minute you're trashing American companies for abusing the H-1B program and then you turn around and claim businesses are willing "to invest in their own country and community". So which is it? Pick a side......
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This is sort of a poor criticism. I was pointing out my situation as a real life example of how companies should behave, and why it’s completely feasible and better than the alternative of cheap labor. There is nothing contradictory about what I said. My side is firmly picked.
 
Phatguysrule said:
$15 per hour ($1800 per month after taxes) isn't even enough to pay rent (okay, barely enough)... you're basically paying high school kids part time. Nobody serious is sticking anywhere for $15 per hour.
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You're preaching to the choir. But $15 an hour is far better than $0 an hour. Sorry with the "when I was a boy" crap, but I went wide eyed into a marriage proposal with no full time job and no real prospects. It "sharpened" my ambition. I didn't sit around waiting for Mom, Dad or Uncle Sam to carry my ass. I took a low paying job, and then another to supplement it. I lived in the Help Wanted ads until I found something that might have a future if I was willing to invest myself in it. Then I got an education in the profession I chose in order to improve my future. You HAVE to start somewhere. Every house is built on a foundation. The very first lesson I EVER learned was that life was not fair. Apparently too many Americans were sold the lie that life WAS fair. Or that the world owes them a living. Poor them. My point was (and still is) that a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. I'm tired of hearing the whines from too many people who haven't even put on their shoes, let alone stood up off the couch and tried to take that step. The people who are too good to work for $15 an hour deserve to starve......
 
jonnyboy said:
This is sort of a poor criticism. I was pointing out my situation as a real life example of how companies should behave, and why it’s completely feasible and better than the alternative of cheap labor. There is nothing contradictory about what I said. My side is firmly picked.
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I agree completely. You are one of the lucky ones and your employer is to be emulated. Unfortunately, your company is the exception and I don't see it improving under the upcoming administration.
 
jonnyboy said:
I was pointing out my situation as a real life example of how companies should behave, and why it’s completely feasible and better than the alternative of cheap labor.
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Feasible, sure. But why is it better than the alternative of cheap labor from the company's point of view? Is it that no one willing to work for less money could possibly be as good as you at your job?

barfo
 
Phatguysrule said:
There is no shortage of developers. There is a shortage of developers willing to work for peanuts.

Entry level developer salary is like $56,000 per year...
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That's clearly false from everything I've read. The following is an excerpt from just one article that I'll give you a link to.

The global developer shortage is not a storm in a teacup but a big deal — a real concern that never ended since 2022.

We are on our way to losing four million developers by 2025 while software developer jobs are ready to hit 85.2 million by 2030. The irony.

According to the IDC, the global developer recession could result in businesses losing approximately $8.5 trillion in annual revenues by 2030.

The need to incorporate technology into daily operations requires businesses to hire top tech talent. But this imbalance between high demand and scarce supply is astonishing.

https://qbatch.com/blog/truths-behind-software-developer-shortage/
 
The reasons QBatch gives in their advertisement for QBatch doesn't disagree with the contention that devs aren't willing to work for peanuts.

According to Amy Loomis, a research VP for IDC’s Future of Work group, these are the five reasons why people quit jobs:

  • They were acting as the backfills, doing the overwork.
  • They expected better work-life balance as a response to pandemic pressures and post-pandemic lifestyles.
  • They had new/better job options in the same or different industries.
  • They wanted to become self-employed, start a new business, or become a full-time gig worker.
  • Their hesitance to comply with new working ways prompted early retirement.
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One of their offered solutions is to look (through QBatch, not doubt) for less qualified people with less experience, out of coding bootcamps. This sounds a lot like "we don't want to pay college grads the money, so we need to look elsewhere."

There is a shortage of talent at the price levels companies want to pay. Companies will complain about this long before capitulating to the labor market's need for better pay, and they'll make it sound like labor's fault the whole way. If you're super on corporate's side, you'll think this is a shortage. If you're on labor's side, you'll think this is corporations being cheapskates.

The truth is, corporations are cheapskates. That's their whole deal. That is how profit is made. Only now, they're being faced with a very much precedented situation of workers leaving an industry because it's a meat grinder with no upside anymore. And threats about AI taking our jobs if we don't work harder only motivate people so much.

So yes, there is a shortage of people. Willing to work. For shitty wages.
 
tlongII said:
That's not what is happening. These are people that possess skills in technology that we don't have enough of in the US.
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These are HB1 job listings with rate of pay.

Gf57181WsAAEsyb



Here are a couple of old ones from Amazon. Warehouse workers? Really?!? $23,546?!?

upload_2025-1-3_16-2-25.png

Here is the HB1 database, you can find listings for cooks and housekeepers.

Here is one for a housekeeping supervisor.

upload_2025-1-3_16-9-55.png


There is a a lot of bullshit and fraud in the HB1 program.

Anyway, here is the HB1 database, you can search by employers here. I roughly know your job and where you work but I won't disclose that here. But you can search for your employer, this year and previous ones, and see what they pay HB1 employees compared to what you make. I'm willing to bet the HB1 make much less.

https://h1bdata.info/
 

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SlyPokerDog said:
These are HB1 job listings with rate of pay.

Gf57181WsAAEsyb



Here are a couple of old ones from Amazon. Warehouse workers? Really?!? $23,546?!?

View attachment 69377

Here is the HB1 database, you can find listings for cooks and housekeepers.

Here is one for a housekeeping supervisor.

View attachment 69378


There is a a lot of bullshit and fraud in the HB1 program.

Anyway, here is the HB1 database, you can search by employers here. I roughly know your job and where you work but I won't disclose that here. But you can search for your employer, this year and previous ones, and see what they pay HB1 employees compared to what you make. I'm willing to bet the HB1 make much less.

https://h1bdata.info/
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That has nothing to do with what I'm arguing. I'm referring specifically to Technology. I'm sure H1B Visa's are mis-used, but that isn't the point.
 
Elon is fucking stupid. If being fucking stupid makes you good at running a business, what does that say about every business ever?
 
Admittedly just skimmed most of this but I thought it was pretty understood at this point that our education system is garbage and we are loaded with ignorant and lazy people. Hence our next President. “The best country on earth” label waved bye bye to us a long time ago.
 
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