My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century concept.

[DaLincolnJones]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

Probably so. They would probably also have been glad if guns were illegal, making it unlikely he got those guns from his mom in the first place. Can go both ways after the fact.

yeah, you can..but crazy is crazy..if they want to cause harm they will..I have seen it happen.

 

[RR7]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

yeah, you can..but crazy is crazy..if they want to cause harm they will..I have seen it happen.

if they want to they will. Somehow that only works for your argument. If he wanted to, really wanted to, and knew the teachers had guns, then it wouldn't stop him, would it? Again. Crazy. If he wants to, he will. He'd just have to escalate, theoretically. Maybe he bombs the school instead.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

Yes. This guy was an autistic tactical genius. I'm sure he would have compensated and took the armed guards out first.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

if they want to they will. Somehow that only works for your argument. If he wanted to, really wanted to, and knew the teachers had guns, then it wouldn't stop him, would it? Again. Crazy. If he wants to, he will. He'd just have to escalate, theoretically. Maybe he bombs the school instead.

pffft common man, most crazy people are not going to design their own personal atom bomb..but look what happened in OKC..
siple crazy takes a gallon of gas and a bic lighter and kills 96 children by burning down the school..oh and I have seen an armed teacher stop someone from threatening students..

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

This wasn't a "crazy person". He was an Aspergers genius with an agenda.

The same kind of mental capacity to draw New York from memory. You don't think he couldn't have figured a way to kill people besides using a gun?

 

[RR7]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

pffft common man, most crazy people are not going to design their own personal atom bomb..but look what happened in OKC..
siple crazy takes a gallon of gas and a bic lighter and kills 96 children by burning down the school..oh and I have seen an armed teacher stop someone from threatening students..

Ok, well then you seem to contradict yourself. It doesn't have to be an atom bomb, let's not be ridiculous for the sake of it. You say crazy is crazy, and if he wants to hurt the people, he will. He knows he has very easy access to multiple guns. Ease of use, so a logical first choice. He knows teachers are unarmed. So feels ok with that. If he knows they're armed, does he go big? Su[pposedly that just stops him? Who knows. But it seems you only want to have it one way.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

Ok, well then you seem to contradict yourself. It doesn't have to be an atom bomb, let's not be ridiculous for the sake of it. You say crazy is crazy, and if he wants to hurt the people, he will. He knows he has very easy access to multiple guns. Ease of use, so a logical first choice. He knows teachers are unarmed. So feels ok with that. If he knows they're armed, does he go big? Su[pposedly that just stops him? Who knows. But it seems you only want to have it one way.

ok

first choice was his moms guns, if she had no guns he would have figured some other way
not contradicting anything just pointing out that fertilizer bombs are easy to make
and no one can really say what this guy would have dome if the schooll had offered more security..yeah he could have gone bigger, with a bomb or he could have decided to burn down a mall or what ever..but being that he was able to kill his mom and dad and without feeling kill others..I am confident that he was determined to carry out evil

 

[RR7]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

absolutely. He was determined, and smart enough to figure out alternatives. So how is arming teachers any more effective against someone like this than outlawing guns?

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

absolutely. He was determined, and smart enough to figure out alternatives. So how is arming teachers any more effective against someone like this than outlawing guns?

obvious

this kid was an extreme, not everyone has this syndrom that is crazy

as I already stated no one knows if he would have gone big or if this was a target of opprotunity..he killed his mother while sleeping, I would think he was looking for the easy way..if the school had presented more of a challange, he may have gone else where..

out lawing guns does not stop this guy or other crazy people

 

[oldguy]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

absolutely. He was determined, and smart enough to figure out alternatives. So how is arming teachers any more effective against someone like this than outlawing guns?

In my opinion, if they are determined, they will beg, borrow or steal a gun. There are millions of guns in the US, and there will still be lots of guns if they are outlawed. Once they decide they are going to kill people, they will. Armed (and TRAINED) teachers don't change the fact that the guy will kill people, but it is quite likely that armed teachers keep them from killing as many people as they wanted to when they started out, by killing the bad guy before the police show up.

Armed teachers doesn't stop the problem, it minimizes the destruction. Most of these guys don't plan to live through the event anyway, so the fact that someone else may kill them, instead of them killing themselves isn't much of a deterent. The best hope is to stop them as quickly as possible after they start shooting.

Bottom line, once they get into the building, people will die. Imo, the best way to minimize how many people die is to kill the intruder as quickly as possible. Armed teachers give you a much better chance of killing them quickly and stopping them from killing more children.

Go Blazers

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

In my opinion, if they are determined, they will beg, borrow or steal a gun. There are millions of guns in the US, and there will still be lots of guns if they are outlawed. Once they decide they are going to kill people, they will. Armed (and TRAINED) teachers don't change the fact that the guy will kill people, but it is quite likely that armed teachers keep them from killing as many people as they wanted to when they started out, by killing the bad guy before the police show up.

Armed teachers doesn't stop the problem, it minimizes the destruction. Most of these guys don't plan to live through the event anyway, so the fact that someone else may kill them, instead of them killing themselves isn't much of a deterent. The best hope is to stop them as quickly as possible after they start shooting.

Bottom line, once they get into the building, people will die. Imo, the best way to minimize how many people die is to kill the intruder as quickly as possible. Armed teachers give you a much better chance of killing them quickly and stopping them from killing more children.

Go Blazers

Armed teachers may deter someone from even trying. Especially if the killer has no idea which of the teachers might be armed.

The downside is that the teachers have to be really careful about not letting the guns get out of their possession.

I think if it were known that one teacher, at random, in every school is armed, it'd be something of a deterrent.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Armed teachers may deter someone from even trying. Especially if the killer has no idea which of the teachers might be armed.

The downside is that the teachers have to be really careful about not letting the guns get out of their possession.

I think if it were known that one teacher, at random, in every school is armed, it'd be something of a deterrent.

These guys have all been mentally ill. "deter" isn't in the lexicon

{Poasted via palm pilot}

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

All the data I've seen says violent crime rates go down in states when they enact concealed carry laws.

Criminals just don't know which person at random might pull out a gun and contest the situation.

 

[RR7]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

All the data I've seen says violent crime rates go down in states when they enact concealed carry laws.

Criminals just don't know which person at random might pull out a gun and contest the situation.

you showed me how tight gun control laws in NY went down slightly more, but not a TON more than Arkansas, with laxer rules. Primarily because of the overall decrease in crime in the country as a whole. I would bet that this also coincides with the rates with conceal carry, them dropping as a whole. Would be interested to see statistics showing otherwise, though.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

you showed me how tight gun control laws in NY went down slightly more, but not a TON more than Arkansas, with laxer rules. Primarily because of the overall decrease in crime in the country as a whole. I would bet that this also coincides with the rates with conceal carry, them dropping as a whole. Would be interested to see statistics showing otherwise, though.

Stats I've seen say in concealed carry states, crime drops an additional 28%.

If you want to debunk it, go ahead.

I would agree that there isn't a clear cause/effect relationship, but it clearly doesn't hurt.

 

[RR7]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

Stats I've seen say in concealed carry states, crime drops an additional 28%.

If you want to debunk it, go ahead.

I would agree that there isn't a clear cause/effect relationship, but it clearly doesn't hurt.

Hmm, usually the person making the claim backs up their argument. Guess not. So be it.
So, there's no clear cause/effect, but hey, doesn't hurt. But then when people say ban guns, becaus,e while it might not be effective, hey, it doesn't hurt, and then you demand to show how it would actually help?

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

Hmm, usually the person making the claim backs up their argument. Guess not. So be it.
So, there's no clear cause/effect, but hey, doesn't hurt. But then when people say ban guns, becaus,e while it might not be effective, hey, it doesn't hurt, and then you demand to show how it would actually help?

tell ya what, you just keep banging that drum


when the next storm sandy or hurricane Katrina happens in your neck of the woods nd the raoming band of thieves comes around, you can explain your beliefs to them and see if that works

I will have guns to protect my family

 

[RR7]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

I don't imagine there'll be a need to explain my beliefs to any roaming band of thieves. It does strike me as a funny comment, relating back to the living in fear contention of earlier in the thread.
But then, hey, big storms and roaving bands are such statistical anomalies that I shouldn't have to bother, when I can just play the odds.

 

[donkiez]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

So Im generalizing here but the same people who suggest armed guards in all our schools don't think universal health care is worth the cost? How are we going to pay for this? If we are going to keep guns and put guards in our schools it schould be paid for by a tax on guns and ammo, a big fat heafty tax on guns an ammo which will furthar put guns and ammo out of reach.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

Hmm, usually the person making the claim backs up their argument. Guess not. So be it.
So, there's no clear cause/effect, but hey, doesn't hurt. But then when people say ban guns, becaus,e while it might not be effective, hey, it doesn't hurt, and then you demand to show how it would actually help?

Crime rates went down (more!) for whatever reasons, because of or in spite of carry conceal laws in about 30 states.

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/postsbyday/RTCResearch.html

Feel free to look at your choice of published work showing crime decreases due to right to carry laws.

 

[RR7]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

Crime rates went down (more!) for whatever reasons, because of or in spite of carry conceal laws in about 30 states.

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/postsbyday/RTCResearch.html

Feel free to look at your choice of published work showing crime decreases due to right to carry laws.

you link the weirdest shit.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

you link the weirdest shit.

I do?

Like this:

Privately Produced General Deterrence By BRUCE L. BENSON AND BRENT D. MAST, published in the Journal of Law and Economics

I don't have an issue with their findings. I don't see an agenda to it.

Like I said, debunk it if you want. I've provided the evidence to support my claim.

 

[oldguy]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

Here's something to think about. All over this country, parents and teachers are demanding that we make sure these kind of shooting will not happen at their school. They don't want to accept that this demand is impossible. They don't care what it costs, they don't care that the 'fix' won't stop the bad guys, they are just frantic that the next crazy shooter will be at their school.

They want a perimeter chain link fence around the entire site. It doesn't matter that they already have one, because the existing ones have openings in them, so the kids can get to their neighborhood school quickly. To close all of the openings means that little Billy will have to walk/ride his bike the long way around the 10 acre site to get to the front of the school, instead of riding a hundred yards on the direct route through a gate in the fence. Let's not loose sight of the fact that Thurston High School had a secured perimeter when Kip Kinkle showed up to shoot a bunch of his classmates.

Parents and teachers are clamoring for more cameras at the schools. The problem with cameras is that they are not useful without someone watching them. Does your school district have the money to pay people to sit around and watch cameras for intruders? (For that matter, does your school district have the money to hire security for the front door?) Cameras are good for catching people after they do something illegal at a school....they don't stop it from happening. And, when the shooter kills a bunch of kids, then blows his brains out, you don't really need a camera to tell you who did the crime.

Parents and teachers want ornamental fencing (like wrought iron) inside the perimeter so that kids can move between buildings on the campus without leaving the confines of the fence. Keep in mind that each gate is on a fire egress path, so each gate must be fitted with panic hardware (at about $650 per). Panic hardware is easy to defeat on an exterior gate. Skateboarders, for instance, simple reach over the gate with their skateboard and smack the panic device, which pops open and gives them access to school buildings. There are many ways to defeat these devices, so the inner fence is ineffective, except as a visual barrier.

Parents and teachers want to have cameras mounted on the inside fence, with 'buzz in' capability for visitors. That means running data cabling to the gate, as well as running power to the gate to activate the electric strike when they buzz you someone in. Again, there is a panic on that gate which is easily defeated. Running power and data is expensive, and it is money spent without much hope of changing anything as far as a shooter entering the school is concerned. Keep in mind that the school in Connecticut had the 'buzz in' feature and it didn't deter the shooter one bit.

Teachers, in particular, want their doors keyed so that they can lock their classroom door from the inside. This minimizes their exposure, compared to having to go into the hallway to lock the door from the outside. At our local school district, that cost over $300,000 for all of the schools. It doesn't seem to matter that they guy with the rifle can shoot the glass out of the door, then enter any classroom he wants to.

Statewide, these kinds of improvements will cost tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars. In Oregon, I doubt that there is even a handful of schools that isn't struggling just to fund teaching the kids. They don't have piles of money laying around to implement all kinds of projects that make people FEEL safer, but in reality don't change anything meaningful.

If your community is pushing for security upgrades, be ready to vote on a bond measure to pay for these upgrades....and they are upgrades that really don't change anything when the guy with a gun shows up.

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

Armed teachers may deter someone from even trying. Especially if the killer has no idea which of the teachers might be armed.

The downside is that the teachers have to be really careful about not letting the guns get out of their possession.

I think if it were known that one teacher, at random, in every school is armed, it'd be something of a deterrent.

Sadly, I don't think there is a deterrent for these guys. I think they go into it knowing they will either commit suicide, or that someone will kill them to stop the carnage. Not much reason to be deterred, if you plan on dying.

Go Blazers

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

Armed teachers may deter someone from even trying. Especially if the killer has no idea which of the teachers might be armed.

The downside is that the teachers have to be really careful about not letting the guns get out of their possession.

I think if it were known that one teacher, at random, in every school is armed, it'd be something of a deterrent.

Teachers are crazy, I wouldn't want my kid at a school where a teacher has a gun.

 

[MARIS61]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

Stats I've seen say in concealed carry states, crime drops an additional 28%.

I would agree that there isn't a clear cause/effect relationship, but it clearly doesn't hurt.

Most importantly, it cuts down on repeat offenders.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

Teachers are crazy, I wouldn't want my kid at a school where a teacher has a gun.

That is what I was thinking.

Since posters just throw out ideas and say the stats prove it . . . more people are killed or injuried by accidental shootings of guns at homes than people who actually use them protecting themselves. Hell no I don't want teachers bringing guns to school.

 

[jlprk]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

I'm worried about two types of people invading our schools, crazed message board owners and Martians.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

funny, I always imagined you as being welcoming toward illegal aliens, jlprk.

 

[jlprk]

Re: My (public) elementary school has armed guards, it is not some 22nd century conce

As for illegals in the school system, I would allow message board owners into the 1st grade, as long as they sit in the back of the bus and drink from segregated water fountains.