NBA's Second Worst Defense?

[worldbarrow]

2015-2016 Opp PTS/G: 104.3 (20th)
Current Season: 114.3 (28th)

League's lowest Opp PTS/G... the Utah Jazz. It is a modest place. A moral one.

Aminu is out, but even with our best defender, we are not a good defensive team. Everyone is aware of a need for post scoring, but a dominant inside presence exists on both sides of the ball. We run our big men off the pick and roll in a perimeter offense. The player doesn't learn enough about obtaining position inside, what to defend, or how to rebound. Instead, we have big men defending the pick and roll on the perimeter, switching on defense, learning how to give up ground, how to avoid fouls, how to defend with their hands and not with position. If we win games with perimeter play, then we're probably too focused on perimeter defense.

Watch the highlights from the Houston game. Why is Ed Davis guarding James Harden at the three point line?
Look at how casually Harden sets to shoot because Davis is giving him too much space. We need a small quick defender to glue himself to a player like Harden, not someone who has to compensate for the dribble because he can't move his feet. And there is Lillard, casually watching the ball from a position guarding... Clint Capella. Suddenly I wish we were more focused on perimeter defense.

The problem could be as vague as being too offensively focused, the problem of lazy, selfish play and stardom that we don't quite resent because it is fairly modest and well-behaved. 'Dame' is a better rapper than Shaq, or AI, but we still have a point guard with a rap album, and one wishes he was a bit less well-rounded and more focused and competitive on the court. He is punching the clock. He needs to make his money on defense. Same for CJ.

Mason, Ed, Meyers—it blows my mind that players make it to the NBA before they have learned to play basketball. Oh, nevermind that, you're seven feet tall. Here is your ten-million dollar rookie contract. No, it doesn't really matter how you play the game. It only matters if we win or lose.

 

[H.C.]

slowest pace team in the NBA also leading in opp PTS/G.
Surprising.

 

[jlprk]

Some foreigner troll with an accent posted this video. How dare he!!

 

[blue32]

Since Stotts.. have we ever been good at defense?

 

[Nikolokolus]

Since WHENEVER.. have we ever been good at defense?

Newsflash. We weren't "good" on defense under McMillan either. This hasn't been a "good" defensive team since ... 2000-ish(?)

The trouble is, now this team isn't even sniffing "respectable."

 

[Nate]

Newsflash. We weren't "good" on defense under McMillan either. This hasn't been a "good" defensive team since ... 2000-ish(?)

The trouble is, now this team isn't even sniffing "respectable."

we had some good defensive teams under McMillan. I think we finished top 3 one year.

 

[noknobs]

Since Stotts.. have we ever been good at defense?

It's all relative. Giving up nearly 114ppg is quite different than giving up 104ppg.

 

[Minstrel]

we had some good defensive teams under McMillan. I think we finished top 3 one year.

Their finishes in team Defensive Rating (which is normalized for pace) under McMillan:

2005-06: 28th
2006-07: 26th
2007-08: 17th
2008-09: 13th
2009-10: 15th
2010-11: 14th
2011-12: 23rd

So they topped out at okay-to-mediocre. If you go by pure points-allowed, they probably look better since they were generally dead last in pace and slow games are lower scoring games. That's not the same as playing good defense, though.

The McMillan years also didn't build around defensive stand-outs among the best players. Zach Randolph was an indifferent defender, especially back then, Roy was nothing special on defense, players like Outlaw and Fernandez were pretty poor. Aldridge eventually became solid, Miller was smart and had great technique but was already older when he became a Blazer and didn't have sufficient lateral quickness.

Greg Oden would have made a significant difference, but, well.

When your best players aren't good defenders, building a good defensive team is hard. The last time the Blazers' best players were good defenders was, as nik alluded to, around 2000 when Rasheed Wallace was a great defender and Scottie Pippen was still a defensive genius even if he had lost a step. Players like Brian Grant and Steve Smith were smart defenders. Sabonis wasn't very mobile, but he was smart, a strong post defender and good at the rim.

 

[Nate]

Their finishes in team Defensive Rating (which is normalized for pace) under McMillan:

2005-06: 28th
2006-07: 26th
2007-08: 17th
2008-09: 13th
2009-10: 15th
2010-11: 14th
2011-12: 23rd

So they topped out at okay-to-mediocre. If you go by pure points-allowed, they probably look better since they were generally dead last in pace and slow games are lower scoring games. That's not the same as playing good defense, though.

The McMillan years also didn't build around defensive stand-outs among the best players. Zach Randolph was an indifferent defender, especially back then, Roy was nothing special on defense, players like Outlaw and Fernandez were pretty poor. Aldridge eventually became solid, Miller was smart and had great technique but was already older when he became a Blazer and didn't have sufficient lateral quickness.

Greg Oden would have made a significant difference, but, well.

When your best players aren't good defenders, building a good defensive team is hard. The last time the Blazers' best players were good defenders was, as nik alluded to, around 2000 when Rasheed Wallace was a great defender and Scottie Pippen was still a defensive genius even if he had lost a step. Players like Brian Grant and Steve Smith were smart defenders. Sabonis wasn't very mobile, but he was smart, a strong post defender and good at the rim.

I get your point about the pace, but if you look at the opponents stats in this, it looks pretty good for Portland.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/2010.html

 

[blue9]

we had some good defensive teams under McMillan. I think we finished top 3 one year.

No, we didn't. Nate was awful. Here's our Def Rtg (and OppFG%) during his tenure.

28th (26th OppFG%)
26th (25th OppFG%)
17th (8th OppFG%)
13th (17th OppFG%)
15th (18th OppFG%)
14th (20th OppFG%)
23rd (26th OppFG%)

There were a few years he had us as a middle-of-the-pack defensive team if you just look at Def Rtg (Joel, Oden, Camby?). But outside of one anomaly we were never good at keeping the other team from putting the ball through the hoop.

 

[Nate]

That Portland team looks pretty similar - numbers wise - to this Memphis team.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2015.html

 

[KingSpeed]

2015-2016 Opp PTS/G: 104.3 (20th)
Current Season: 114.3 (28th)

League's lowest Opp PTS/G... the Utah Jazz. It is a modest place. A moral one.

Aminu is out, but even with our best defender, we are not a good defensive team. Everyone is aware of a need for post scoring, but a dominant inside presence exists on both sides of the ball. We run our big men off the pick and roll in a perimeter offense. The player doesn't learn enough about obtaining position inside, what to defend, or how to rebound. Instead, we have big men defending the pick and roll on the perimeter, switching on defense, learning how to give up ground, how to avoid fouls, how to defend with their hands and not with position. If we win games with perimeter play, then we're probably too focused on perimeter defense.

Watch the highlights from the Houston game. Why is Ed Davis guarding James Harden at the three point line?
Look at how casually Harden sets to shoot because Davis is giving him too much space. We need a small quick defender to glue himself to a player like Harden, not someone who has to compensate for the dribble because he can't move his feet. And there is Lillard, casually watching the ball from a position guarding... Clint Capella. Suddenly I wish we were more focused on perimeter defense.

The problem could be as vague as being too offensively focused, the problem of lazy, selfish play and stardom that we don't quite resent because it is fairly modest and well-behaved. 'Dame' is a better rapper than Shaq, or AI, but we still have a point guard with a rap album, and one wishes he was a bit less well-rounded and more focused and competitive on the court. He is punching the clock. He needs to make his money on defense. Same for CJ.

Mason, Ed, Meyers—it blows my mind that players make it to the NBA before they have learned to play basketball. Oh, nevermind that, you're seven feet tall. Here is your ten-million dollar rookie contract. No, it doesn't really matter how you play the game. It only matters if we win or lose.

Plumlee is incredibly skilled; the best passing big man in the league.

 

[KingSpeed]

Since Stotts.. have we ever been good at defense?

We were top 5 offense and top 5 defense at times during the RoLo Era.

 

[Nate]

No, we didn't. Nate was awful. Here's our Def Rtg (and OppFG%) during his tenure.

28th (26th OppFG%)
26th (25th OppFG%)
17th (8th OppFG%)
13th (17th OppFG%)
15th (18th OppFG%)
14th (20th OppFG%)
23rd (26th OppFG%)

There were a few years he had us as a middle-of-the-pack defensive team if you just look at Def Rtg (Joel, Oden, Camby?). But outside of one anomaly we were never good at keeping the other team from putting the ball through the hoop.

Well if they're getting 2's instead of threes, and we're not letting them get any rebounds, and we steal the ball a lot, and get a lot of blocks, and they're not scoring a lot of points, I think the defense is pretty good.

We also kept the other teams assists way down too.

 

[blue9]

Well if they're getting 2's instead of threes, and we're not letting them get any rebounds, and we steal the ball a lot, and get a lot of blocks, and they're not scoring a lot of points, I think the defense is pretty good.

We also kept the other teams assists way down too.

That should be reflected in Def Rtg, which was never any better than average.

 

[Nate]

That should be reflected in Def Rtg, which was never any better than average.

Well you know what they say, "Sometimes the best defense, is a good (slow?) offense" lol idk. McMillan definitely wasn't a good offensive coach either, but somehow we averaged 113.5 points a game one year. Most in team history I think.

I messed that up, I meant OffRtg

 

[Minstrel]

I get your point about the pace, but if you look at the opponents stats in this, it looks pretty good for Portland.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/2010.html

Yeah, it looked good, but it wasn't actually that good. That was the year they finished in the middle of the pack per 100 possessions. They just played at a slow enough pace (last in the league) that there weren't a lot of possessions. Taking this to an extreme just to make the point more obvious, if you slow the game down to 10 possessions each (assuming no shot clock, obviously) and give up a three on every opponent possession, the 30 PPG will look amazing, but obviously the defense was terrible.

 

[blue32]

Newsflash. We weren't "good" on defense under McMillan either. This hasn't been a "good" defensive team since ... 2000-ish(?)

The trouble is, now this team isn't even sniffing "respectable."

Well yeah I know, but I don't think McMuffin had the team we have now, I was trying to keep it somewhat consistent.

 

[Nate]

Yeah, it looked good, but it wasn't actually that good. That was the year they finished in the middle of the pack per 100 possessions. They just played at a slow enough pace (last in the league) that there weren't a lot of possessions. Taking this to an extreme just to make the point more obvious, if you slow the game down to 10 possessions each (assuming no shot clock, obviously) and give up a three on every opponent possession, the 30 PPG will look amazing, but obviously the defense was terrible.

What do you think about our high OffRtg in 08-09? I get the math, but idk how I feel about it.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Well yeah I know, but I don't think McMuffin had the team we have now, I was trying to keep it somewhat consistent.

New thing pretty much same as the old thing. Indifferent defenders of middling athleticism (by NBA standards). So Stotts is certainly culpable to some degree, but so is Olshey for the way he constructed this team, and guys not giving a whole lot of effort -- plenty of blame to go around on this one, not just Stotts.

 

[Minstrel]

What do you think about our high OffRtg in 08-09? I get the math, but idk how I feel about it.

That was a talented offensive team. Roy was still healthy and great, Aldridge had made the jump to very good player, Oden actually played half the season and was a good offensive player, Fernandez and Outlaw were at their peak and Batum was a promising young player.

But you'll see their awful pace (last again) work the other direction--they were #1 in Offensive Rating that year, but only #14 in PPG. Because of pace. It made their defense look better but made their offense look worse.

 

[Nikolokolus]

What do you think about our high OffRtg in 08-09? I get the math, but idk how I feel about it.

Bradon Roy being a very efficient pick and roll player and having a very high usage rate I'd guess.

 

[Nate]

That was a talented offensive team. Roy was still healthy and great, Aldridge had made the jump to very good player, Oden actually played half the season and was a good offensive player, Fernandez and Outlaw were at their peak and Batum was a promising young player.

But you'll see their awful pace (last again) work the other direction--they were #1 in Offensive Rating that year, but only #14 in PPG. Because of pace. It made their defense look better but made their offense look worse.

Aldridge averaged 18 and oden averaged 9 ppg.

I don't think that team was more talented than this one, offensively. Dame is better than Roy was, and CJ is at roys level. Obviously not at finishing, but he makes up for that with 3pt shooting. Both Fernandez and outlaws peaks were nothing great.

I understand the pace thing, my point is that idk how I feel about it. I'm not sure that equation is the end-all-be-all for judging a teams performance.

It makes bad offensive coaches look good? And I'm not sure that having a slow pace is a bad thing, if you're outscoring your opponents.

 

[Nate]

Bradon Roy being a very efficient pick and roll player and having a very high usage rate I'd guess.

So maybe the equation is flawed? It made a bad offensive coach have the highest OffRtg in the league. I think league history? Maybe just trailblazers history.

 

[Nate]

If a bad DefRtg makes a coach/team bad at defense. Then a good OffRtg should mean that the coach/team was good, no?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Aldridge averaged 18 and oden averaged 9 ppg.

I don't think that team was more talented than this one, offensively. Dame is better than Roy was, and CJ is at roys level. Obviously not at finishing, but he makes up for that with 3pt shooting. Both Fernandez and outlaws peaks were nothing great.

I understand the pace thing, my point is that idk how I feel about it. I'm not sure that equation is the end-all-be-all for judging a teams performance.

It makes bad offensive coaches look good? And I'm not sure that having a slow pace is a bad thing, if you're outscoring your opponents.

Nobody's saying that a slow pace is bad. Simply that the slow pace makes the raw defensive stats look better than they actually are. If the quality of a team's defense is being discussed, then pace has to be considered for the sake of intellectual honesty.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

If a bad DefRtg makes a coach/team bad at defense. Then a good OffRtg should mean that the coach/team was good, no?

Not necessarily re: the coach. A hugely talented offensive player can make an offense look highly efficient without good coaching. The Brandon Roy 1-4-flat offense was efficient in 2009, but not because of great coaching; just because he was individually one of the most talented offensive players in the league. Also should be noted that offensive rebounding plays into ORtg, and IIRC, we were an excellent offensive rebounding team that year as well. I wouldn't attribute that to coaching either.

 

[Minstrel]

Aldridge averaged 18 and oden averaged 9 ppg.

Life isn't just about points scored, there's efficiency also. Oden didn't score a ton, but he scored very efficiently and was a great offensive rebounder. Roy, Aldridge, Oden, Fernandez, Outlaw all had great Offensive Ratings...their scoring, rebounding and passing ability led to excellent offensive efficiency.

I don't think that team was more talented than this one, offensively.

I don't agree at all, but that's not really the point here. The point is that points per game is hugely affected by the pace you play at. If you play at a slow pace, your points allowed will look better and your points scored will look worse. McMillan's Portland teams didn't allow many points per game because there weren't a lot of possessions to score on in the game. On a per-possession basis, they were either mediocre or bad on defense during his tenure.

I also didn't say slow pace is good or bad. In general, playing at a slower pace is good if you're less talented because more possessions increases the chances for a better team to separate themselves (though, it's not entirely that simple--the personnel you have also matters for what style of game you play). The Blazers weren't the most or least talented team in the league, so low pace probably didn't matter much one way or the other.

 

[Nate]

Nobody's saying that a slow pace is bad. Simply that the slow pace makes the raw defensive stats look better than they actually are. If the quality of a team's defense is being discussed, then pace has to be considered for the sake of intellectual honesty.

I figured he meant it was bad when he said "awful" but maybe he just meant in ranking.

I just think it weird that our high OffRtg kind of means nothing because of the equation, but our middle of the pack DefRtf is a dead-on representation of our defense.

Idk, I feel like if the DefRtf means McMillan was a bad defensive coach, then the OffRtg must mean that he was a great offensive coach right?

Even though it's generally accepted that McMillan was/is a bad offensive coach.

 

[Nate]

So it's mainly just our players that are the problem defensively? I haven't been too hot on Stotts, I really wanted Thibs, but idk maybe it's not his fault?

God I want us to play better defense...