Zombie Neil Deserves Respect

[e_blazer]

Do you think we could get someone to record an update of the old Aretha Franklin song for Neil Olshey:

Hey, what we want
(Oo) Baby, you ain't got it
(Oo) What we need
(Oo) You know you ain't I got it?
(Oo) All I'm askin'
(Oo) Is for a little reject... send you home (not sorry even a little bit)

R-E-J-E-C-T
Find out what it means to me
R-E-J-E-C-T
Take care, bye-bye...
Oh (sock it to me, sock it to me
Sock it to me, sock it to me)
A little reject (sock it to me, sock it to me
Sock it to me, sock it to me)

 

[calvin natt]

if a coach can't maximize his players' strengths and adapt to new personnel, how is it the GM's fault? Even Gregg Popovich changed his style to adapt to new players on his team and won a title in 2014.

Stotts is running the same basic shit on offense he did in 2016. And using the same drop scheme on defense that he did in 2013. The game has changed, the players have changed, yet our coach remains stuck in his ways.

This is the macro lens, but he does the same when you look at adjustments in-game. They just don't happen. When Curry has been cooking you cuz of drop coverage for 40+ in three quarters and you keep doing the same shit for the last quarter, expect to get 60 put on you.

The argument is yes, its the coach's fault but the coach is in place so the GM needs to address it. I get that point completely.

 

[illmatic99]

We replaced:

Whiteside with Nurkic
Carmelo with Roco
Hezonja/Bazemore with Jones/Powell

And we're effectively worse on defense. Explain that one. The defense WAS addressed in the offseason by Neil. The coach doesn't have a clue on how to use them.

 

[Natebishop3]

if a coach can't maximize his players' strengths and adapt to new personnel, how is it the GM's fault? Even Gregg Popovich changed his style to adapt to new players on his team and won a title in 2014.

Stotts is running the same basic shit on offense he did in 2016. And using the same drop scheme on defense that he did in 2013. The game has changed, the players have changed, yet our coach remains stuck in his ways.

This is the macro lens, but he does the same when you look at adjustments in-game. They just don't happen. When Curry has been cooking you cuz of drop coverage for 40+ in three quarters and you keep doing the same shit for the last quarter, expect to get 60 put on you.

But Neil makes absolutely head scratching decisions. Dame and CJ are relatively the same height. They both play a style that requires the ball in their hands. That was obvious when CJ was coming out of college. They're not good defenders. Obviously there's some differences, but he drafted very very similar players back to back. Why?

He signed DJJ with our full MLE while it was PAINFULLY obvious that he wouldn't fit Stotts system.

He traded GTJ for a UFA shooting guard who we now have to play out of position if we want to give him minutes.

There's wishful thinking and then there's the reality of things. He knew who he had in Stotts. Why bring in players that won't fit the system? Why bring back Melo when we all knew what would happen? And he keeps bringing in old school bigs like Nurk, Whiteside, and Kanter. It really seems like Neil is just as oblivious as Stotts.

 

[Natebishop3]

Carmelo with Roco

Did we?

Melo attempts more shots in less time. He's also usually on the floor at the end of games, while Covington sits.

 

[wizenheimer]

But Neil makes absolutely head scratching decisions. Dame and CJ are relatively the same height. They both play a style that requires the ball in their hands. That was obvious when CJ was coming out of college. They're not good defenders. Obviously there's some differences, but he drafted very very similar players back to back. Why?

He signed DJJ with our full MLE while it was PAINFULLY obvious that he wouldn't fit Stotts system.

He traded GTJ for a UFA shooting guard who we now have to play out of position if we want to give him minutes.

There's wishful thinking and then there's the reality of things. He knew who he had in Stotts. Why bring in players that won't fit the system? Why bring back Melo when we all knew what would happen? And he keeps bringing in old school bigs like Nurk, Whiteside, and Kanter. It really seems like Neil is just as oblivious as Stotts.

keep preaching NB

if the ship is foundering on the rocks, taking on water, the pilot doesn't get 100% of the blame when the captain plotted the course...that's on the captain. Olshey is the captain who has kept the pilot in place for 9 years. Olshey hired every single member of the crew that helped beach the ship on the rocks. Yet we have people here who refuse to blame the captain as he hides in his cabin with all the alarms on the ship ringing, beeping, and buzzing

switching analogies, Olshey is the architect of this crumbling house of cards. Sure...fire the lead carpenter, but for fuck sakes, fire the stubborn ego-driven architect too because he sure as shit isn't capable of shoring up the shaky foundation he thinks is just peachy.

 

[TBpup]

IMHO, Stotts has completely mismanaged/enabled the players he has been provided.

However.....Neil has had more than his fair share of gaping missed opportunities or moves that have hamstrung the franchise for years.

2012: Blazers had already identified Dame. Either he gets credit for Dame and blame for Meyers, or he gets no blame or credit for either.
2013: Already had a smaller, ball dominant, defensively weaker guard and then drafted CJ. Missed: Giannis and Gobert
2014: No pick. Gave up 2011 pick (Tobias Harris) and 2014 pick (Shabazz Napier) for Gerald Wallace....which they later got Dame for.
2015: Hollis-Jefferson who they traded for Plumlee who they traded for Nurk and a 1st used to help get Zach Collins.
2016: No pick due to the Afflalo trade.
2017: Traded 2 1st round picks to take Zach Collins. Also selected Caleb Swanigan. Missed: Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, John Collins, Jarrett Allen, OG Anunoby, Kyle Kuzma, Josh Hart, Dillon Brooks, any number of players who have had better to much better careers.
2018: Anfernee Simons - missed Robert Williams, Devonte' Graham, Mitchell Robinson, Jalen Brunson.
2019: Nassir Little - nothing much after Little and tons of potential with Nas.
2020: Traded for Covington with another pick owed to Houston.

That is not a good resume'. To be fair, Olshey has done better in the 2nd round acquiring contributors like Barton,Crabbe, Layman, and Trent. Out of all of those, they have only Powell to show for it...and maybe not him for long.

Then there is the ill-fated summer of 2016 where Olshey spent a fortune on players that are either out of the league or barely holding on....and not due to age. That hamstrung the franchise for years. I get the money spent wouldn't have created more cap room by saving it, but who held a gun to his head for the amounts and for max-year contracts? Very poor decision making.

It seems like there have been a lot of opportunities and very few of them have come out well for Olshey. The Nurk trade seems the best but it is a lot of disappointment after that.

Stotts needs to go....but it shouldn't end at that.

 

[Natebishop3]

IMHO, Stotts has completely mismanaged/enabled the players he has been provided.

However.....Neil has had more than his fair share of gaping missed opportunities or moves that have hamstrung the franchise for years.

2012: Blazers had already identified Dame. Either he gets credit for Dame and blame for Meyers, or he gets no blame or credit for either.
2013: Already had a smaller, ball dominant, defensively weaker guard and then drafted CJ. Missed: Giannis and Gobert
2014: No pick. Gave up 2011 pick (Tobias Harris) and 2014 pick (Shabazz Napier) for Gerald Wallace....which they later got Dame for.
2015: Hollis-Jefferson who they traded for Plumlee who they traded for Nurk and a 1st used to help get Zach Collins.
2016: No pick due to the Afflalo trade.
2017: Traded 2 1st round picks to take Zach Collins. Also selected Caleb Swanigan. Missed: Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, John Collins, Jarrett Allen, OG Anunoby, Kyle Kuzma, Josh Hart, Dillon Brooks, any number of players who have had better to much better careers.
2018: Anfernee Simons - missed Robert Williams, Devonte' Graham, Mitchell Robinson, Jalen Brunson.
2019: Nassir Little - nothing much after Little and tons of potential with Nas.
2020: Traded for Covington with another pick owed to Houston.

That is not a good resume'. To be fair, Olshey has done better in the 2nd round acquiring contributors like Barton,Crabbe, Layman, and Trent. Out of all of those, they have only Powell to show for it...and maybe not him for long.

Then there is the ill-fated summer of 2016 where Olshey spent a fortune on players that are either out of the league or barely holding on....and not due to age. That hamstrung the franchise for years. I get the money spent wouldn't have created more cap room by saving it, but who held a gun to his head for the amounts and for max-year contracts? Very poor decision making.

It seems like there have been a lot of opportunities and very few of them have come out well for Olshey. The Nurk trade seems the best but it is a lot of disappointment after that.

Stotts needs to go....but it shouldn't end at that.

I don't understand why he keeps drafting shoot first guards who can't defend.

 

[wizenheimer]

IMHO, Stotts has completely mismanaged/enabled the players he has been provided.

However.....Neil has had more than his fair share of gaping missed opportunities or moves that have hamstrung the franchise for years.

2012: Blazers had already identified Dame. Either he gets credit for Dame and blame for Meyers, or he gets no blame or credit for either.
2013: Already had a smaller, ball dominant, defensively weaker guard and then drafted CJ. Missed: Giannis and Gobert
2014: No pick. Gave up 2011 pick (Tobias Harris) and 2014 pick (Shabazz Napier) for Gerald Wallace....which they later got Dame for.
2015: Hollis-Jefferson who they traded for Plumlee who they traded for Nurk and a 1st used to help get Zach Collins.
2016: No pick due to the Afflalo trade.
2017: Traded 2 1st round picks to take Zach Collins. Also selected Caleb Swanigan. Missed: Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, John Collins, Jarrett Allen, OG Anunoby, Kyle Kuzma, Josh Hart, Dillon Brooks, any number of players who have had better to much better careers.
2018: Anfernee Simons - missed Robert Williams, Devonte' Graham, Mitchell Robinson, Jalen Brunson.
2019: Nassir Little - nothing much after Little and tons of potential with Nas.
2020: Traded for Covington with another pick owed to Houston.

That is not a good resume'. To be fair, Olshey has done better in the 2nd round acquiring contributors like Barton,Crabbe, Layman, and Trent. Out of all of those, they have only Powell to show for it...and maybe not him for long.

Then there is the ill-fated summer of 2016 where Olshey spent a fortune on players that are either out of the league or barely holding on....and not due to age. That hamstrung the franchise for years. I get the money spent wouldn't have created more cap room by saving it, but who held a gun to his head for the amounts and for max-year contracts? Very poor decision making.

It seems like there have been a lot of opportunities and very few of them have come out well for Olshey. The Nurk trade seems the best but it is a lot of disappointment after that.

Stotts needs to go....but it shouldn't end at that.

as a certified Olshey hater, even I can't really blame him for all those things. The draft seems to be as much voodoo as expertise. Although I will say that 2013 draft was Portland's big chance at a dynasty. Dame + Giannis + Gobert...wow...although Portland obviously couldn't have afforded to keep all three after their rookie extensions

I think the biggest criticisms are reserved for what his intentions have been for established NBA players. The Blazers have been saved from most of them because If Olshey had his way, Portland would be the northwest version of the Kings:

* max contract for Roy Hibbert
* max contract for Greg Monroe
* max contract to Enes Kanter
* max MLE for Spenser Hawes
* 340 million in contracts in 2016 to CJ, Crabbe, Turner, Meyers, Harkless, Ezeli
* max contract to Chandler Parsons
* max contract to Hassan Whiteside

those weren't college players that needed to be projected into the NBA. They were established NBA players that Olshey grossly overrated after seeing them on NBA floors for years

 

[Natebishop3]

as a certified Olshey hater, even I can't really blame him for all those things. The draft seems to be as much voodoo as expertise. Although I will say that 2013 draft was Portland's big chance at a dynasty. Dame + Giannis + Gobert...wow...although Portland obviously couldn't have afforded to keep all three after their rookie extensions

I think the biggest criticisms are reserved for what his intentions have been for established NBA players. The Blazers have been saved from most of them because If Olshey had his way, Portland would be the northwest version of the Kings:

* max contract for Roy Hibbert
* max contract for Greg Monroe
* max contract to Enes Kanter
* max MLE for Spenser Hawes
* 340 million in contracts in 2016 to CJ, Crabbe, Turner, Meyers, Harkless, Ezeli
* max contract to Chandler Parsons
* max contract to Hassan Whiteside

those weren't college players that needed to be projected into the NBA. They were established NBA players that Olshey grossly overrated after seeing them on NBA floors for years

He seems obsessed with the old way and hasn't adjusted to the new NBA.

 

[blazerkor]

We replaced:

Whiteside with Nurkic
Carmelo with Roco
Hezonja/Bazemore with Jones/Powell

And we're effectively worse on defense. Explain that one. The defense WAS addressed in the offseason by Neil. The coach doesn't have a clue on how to use them.

Even if he doesn't have unilateral power to remove Stotts, the salesman should be able to sell the rest of the organization on getting the guy out of here... so I still put it on him. He either has to be able to get rid of Stotts or bend his personnel moves to what Stotts does. All of this is a moot point because spending 70M on the worst defensive starting back court in the league, who in your head coach's system are redundant offensively is unforgivable.

There's also the fact that if he doesn't get rid of CJ in the off season we'll either be starting three guys under 6'5' who are making around 90M per season or more likely Norm will leave and we'll have gotten nothing but a worse record in return for Gary. There's also the fact that he lost LaMarcus for nothing which should have cost him his job back then. He followed that up with the summer of love in which he gifted Leonard, Ezeli and Turner ridiculous contracts which would have gotten a lot of GMs fired. How about the fact that he let us play with only one guy over 6'7" for all of those games when Nurk and Giles were out this season when we had a roster spot open for a ten day? I mean, how many different reasons are needed to fire a guy after 9 seasons without winning a game past the second round?

 

[Natebishop3]

Even if he doesn't have unilateral power to remove Stotts, the salesman should be able to sell the rest of the organization on getting the guy out of here... so I still put it on him. He either has to be able to get rid of Stotts or bend his personnel moves to what Stotts does. All of this is a moot point because spending 70M on the worst defensive starting back court in the league, who in your head coach's system are redundant offensively is unforgivable.

There's also the fact that if he doesn't get rid of CJ in the off season we'll either be starting three guys under 6'5' who are making around 90M per season or more likely Norm will leave and we'll have gotten nothing but a worse record in return for Gary. There's also the fact that he lost LaMarcus for nothing which should have cost him his job back then. He followed that up with the summer of love in which he gifted Leonard, Ezeli and Turner ridiculous contracts which would have gotten a lot of GMs fired. How about the fact that he let us play with only one guy over 6'7" for all of those games when Nurk and Giles were out this season when we had a roster spot open for a ten day? I mean, how many different reasons are needed to fire a guy after 9 seasons without winning a game past the second round?

It's because we don't have an owner. None of this would still be going on if Paul was still here.

 

[wizenheimer]

It's because we don't have an owner. None of this would still be going on if Paul was still here.

I agree. If PA were still alive I'm convinced a new GM and new coach would be in their 2nd seasons on the job, at minimum

 

[Minstrel]

If Olshey survives, his next hire better be someone he actually sees eye to eye with on how the game should be played, as well as how players should be utilized.

Why do we assume Olshey and Stotts don't see eye to eye on that? I don't know their working relationship from the inside, but from appearances, they seem to have a strong one. A GM doesn't keep a coach on this long, with no massive success to show for it, if there's tension in how the players are being utilized. My guess is that Olshey and Stotts communicate quite a bit on all of this and what we see is a shared vision--I think they're very much eye to eye on player utilization.

Just using Melo as an example--people say, "I don't mind him on the roster, but he shouldn't be playing 25+ minutes! That's all on Stotts!" But Olshey was the one who said that he sees Portland as the guardians of Melo's legacy and the more he plays, the more his legacy rubs off on Portland. Does that sound like a GM who's unhappy with the number of minutes Melo is playing?

 

[wizenheimer]

Why do we assume Olshey and Stotts don't see eye to eye on that? I don't know their working relationship from the inside, but from appearances, they seem to have a strong one. A GM doesn't keep a coach on this long, with no massive success to show for it, if there's tension in how the players are being utilized. My guess is that Olshey and Stotts communicate quite a bit on all of this and what we see is a shared vision--I think they're very much eye to eye on player utilization.

Just using Melo as an example--people say, "I don't mind him on the roster, but he shouldn't be playing 25+ minutes! That's all on Stotts!" But Olshey was the one who said that he sees Portland as the guardians of Melo's legacy and the more he plays, the more his legacy rubs off on Portland. Does that sound like a GM who's unhappy with the number of minutes Melo is playing?

very good point Mr. Top-of-the-Pops

which to me illustrates the massive inconsistency in those posters who are so aggressively anti-Stotts and turn right back around and be pro-Olshey. If defies common sense, IMO

 

[Scalma]

Why do we assume Olshey and Stotts don't see eye to eye on that? I don't know their working relationship from the inside, but from appearances, they seem to have a strong one. A GM doesn't keep a coach on this long, with no massive success to show for it, if there's tension in how the players are being utilized. My guess is that Olshey and Stotts communicate quite a bit on all of this and what we see is a shared vision--I think they're very much eye to eye on player utilization.

Just using Melo as an example--people say, "I don't mind him on the roster, but he shouldn't be playing 25+ minutes! That's all on Stotts!" But Olshey was the one who said that he sees Portland as the guardians of Melo's legacy and the more he plays, the more his legacy rubs off on Portland. Does that sound like a GM who's unhappy with the number of minutes Melo is playing?

because Stotts is on record saying he lets olshey bring in the players he wants and stays out of the way. It’s the most obvious after the draft when he barely knows anything about the players selected.

 

[calvin natt]

Why do we assume Olshey and Stotts don't see eye to eye on that? I don't know their working relationship from the inside, but from appearances, they seem to have a strong one. A GM doesn't keep a coach on this long, with no massive success to show for it, if there's tension in how the players are being utilized. My guess is that Olshey and Stotts communicate quite a bit on all of this and what we see is a shared vision--I think they're very much eye to eye on player utilization.

Just using Melo as an example--people say, "I don't mind him on the roster, but he shouldn't be playing 25+ minutes! That's all on Stotts!" But Olshey was the one who said that he sees Portland as the guardians of Melo's legacy and the more he plays, the more his legacy rubs off on Portland. Does that sound like a GM who's unhappy with the number of minutes Melo is playing?

Some things they agree on, some they don’t. Pretty simple.

 

[Minstrel]

because Stotts is on record saying he lets olshey bring in the players he wants and stays out of the way. It’s the most obvious after the draft when he barely knows anything about the players selected.

Sure, that means Stotts isn't involved in the talent acquisition side. It doesn't mean they're at odds over how the players are used. Even aside from the Melo thing, just the sheer length of time Olshey has stuck with Stotts suggests that he believes Stotts uses the players he acquires in a manner he approves of.

 

[Minstrel]

Some things they agree on, some they don’t. Pretty simple.

Right, like all humans. I was responding to the idea that Olshey needs to find a coach he sees eye to eye with. I think the evidence suggests he does see eye to eye with Stotts.

 

[Scalma]

Sure, that means Stotts isn't involved in the talent acquisition side. It doesn't mean they're at odds over how the players are used. Even aside from the Melo thing, just the sheer length of time Olshey has stuck with Stotts suggests that he believes Stotts uses the players he acquires in a manner he approves of.

Or he just doesn’t object. You really think Stotts’ ideal starting lineup would have non shooters like Derrick Jones in it?

 

[calvin natt]

Right, like all humans. I was responding to the idea that Olshey needs to find a coach he sees eye to eye with. I think the evidence suggests he does see eye to eye with Stotts.

But he doesn’t on everything. Some guys are utilized in a way he agrees with, some aren’t. GMs don’t tell coaches how to coach. Which is why Stotts is gone when season is over.

 

[Minstrel]

Or he just doesn’t object. You really think Stotts’ ideal starting lineup would have non shooters like Derrick Jones in it?

I think he tries to make the best lineups he can with the players he's given and that he and Olshey probably confer. I don't think Olshey keeps Stotts around for this many years if he dislikes how the players are used. Mediocrity reflects on him too. If he felt usage of the players by the head coach was why Portland is mediocre, I doubt he'd stick with that coach.

 

[Scalma]

I think he tries to make the best lineups he can with the players he's given and that he and Olshey probably confer. I don't think Olshey keeps Stotts around for this many years if he dislikes how the players are used. Mediocrity reflects on him too. If he felt usage of the players by the head coach was why Portland is mediocre, I doubt he'd stick with that coach.

Stotts was gonna get fired after the pelicans series, but Dame saved his job. The next year they went to the conference finals. Can’t fire him then. Last year they had injuries and covid but finished the season strong before losing to the champions. He’ll have a real reason to fire him now, and I’d be shocked if he didn’t. Stotts was a good employee. Give me $7m a year and I’ll rub Olsheys ego as well.

 

[wizenheimer]

Stotts was gonna get fired after the pelicans series, but Dame saved his job.

that may be true, but how do we know it's really the case?

Dame didn't say "I saved Stotts his job". Paul Allen didn't say anything about it either. Where does that narrative come from? who leaked it? Which ass does it cover? Who benefits by dodging accountability for Stotts still being in the job 4 years later?

yeah, those are all rhetorical questions because I certainly have suspicions about the source of that narrative. But I don't know for sure if that narrative is true or where it came from, and nobody else here knows for sure either. But it's somehow become 'common knowledge"'

 

[Natebishop3]

that may be true, but how do we know it's really the case?

Dame didn't say "I saved Paul Allen's job". Paul Allen didn't say anything about it either. Where does that narrative come from? who leaked it? Which ass does it cover? Who benefits by dodging accountability for Stotts still being in the job 4 years later?

yeah, those are all rhetorical questions because I certainly have suspicions about the source of that narrative. But I don't know for sure if that narrative is true or where it came from, and nobody else here knows for sure either. But it's somehow become 'common knowledge"'

I know this is a typo, but it's still hilarious to think about Dame saving Paul's job

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I believe this to be true to a degree... not only about GMs, but coaches, and players as well. If there is someone above you, then sometimes the decisions you "make" can often be directives.

I do wonder sometimes how much Stotts and Olshey collaborate on certain decisions. Has Olshey come to Stotts and said "Look, now that we have Powell, we can't afford to pay Jones next year; so don't do anything that would encourage him to exercise his option." And of course this is all 100% speculation, but I'm looking at some of Stotts coaching decisions lately: playing Melo a lot when stats clearly show he has a negative effect on team performance; the game where he played three different guys with similar skills about five minutes each, and the crucial free throws by Lillard where he gave no instructions (so presumably no one on the team was on the same page)..... and I almost wonder if Olshey has told him "Look, we need to keep this lottery pick in this good draft year; it's for the good of the team. We're not going to be able to do anything in the playoffs anyway until Nurk and Zach are 100%".

 

[wizenheimer]

I know this is a typo, but it's still hilarious to think about Dame saving Paul's job

shit...good catch...you can be my editor

if he did, that would make Dame the most powerful person in the NBA....even more powerful than Woj

 

[wizenheimer]

and I almost wonder if Olshey has told him "Look, we need to keep this lottery pick in this good draft year; it's for the good of the team. We're not going to be able to do anything in the playoffs anyway until Nurk and Zach are 100%".

if Olshey actually believes that Zach is the key to Portland's future, he should be fired immediately

 

[Scalma]

I do wonder sometimes how much Stotts and Olshey collaborate on certain decisions. Has Olshey come to Stotts and said "Look, now that we have Powell, we can't afford to pay Jones next year; so don't do anything that would encourage him to exercise his option." And of course this is all 100% speculation, but I'm looking at some of Stotts coaching decisions lately: playing Melo a lot when stats clearly show he has a negative effect on team performance; the game where he played three different guys with similar skills about five minutes each, and the crucial free throws by Lillard where he gave no instructions (so presumably no one on the team was on the same page)..... and I almost wonder if Olshey has told him "Look, we need to keep this lottery pick in this good draft year; it's for the good of the team. We're not going to be able to do anything in the playoffs anyway until Nurk and Zach are 100%".

doubt it heavy. One, I don’t think they have that sort of relationship and two Stotts isn’t gonna lose games on purpose when he knows he’s getting fired after the season. What’s in it for him?

Olshey brought in Jones but Jones is exactly the type of player Stotts hates. Melo isn’t. Melo is a vet that can get buckets. Stotts loves that, and the leash he gives him proves that. He will sacrifice defense for offense any day of the week, just look at how often he uses Simons, Melo, CJ, and Kanter together.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

if Olshey actually believes that Zach is the key to Portland's future, he should be fired immediately

Well, I think his main motivation is that he is worried about looking bad for giving up this lottery pick in a good draft, but he is not going to say that to Stotts; I don't think they are that good of buddies.