New Attack Ads

[Dumpy]

section 3 makes it clear that the information provided must be "age appropriate," and (I assume) be up to the administrator of each school district.

 

[Denny Crane]

section 3 makes it clear that the information provided must be "age appropriate," and (I assume) be up to the administrator of each school district.

Age Appropriate COMPREHENSIVE Sex Education is an oxymoron.

So they tell the kids "if someone touches you there, tell an adult you trust right away." What do they do the rest of all that time the kids are in these classes?

 

[Dumpy]

Age Appropriate COMPREHENSIVE Sex Education is an oxymoron.

So they tell the kids "if someone touches you there, tell an adult you trust right away." What do they do the rest of all that time the kids are in these classes?

five-year-olds don't take separate classes for each subject. regardless, as I read the bill, it doesn't require sex education classes; it just sets out the content should they be offered. I assume that whether sex education content is offered to students of a particular age would be up to each school district administrator; however, I also assume that at some point it becomes mandatory, such as in high school, but there would be a different state statute on that.

 

[Denny Crane]

Whether we agree or not on teaching comprehensive sex education to 5 year olds is appropriate, it is still a fact in the ad that stands up to scrutiny.

 

[Денг Гордон]

When's the last time that McCain has had a honest attack ad?

He's has had tons of ads filled with lies about Obama, as posted in this thread.

Then of course the celebrity style character attacks.

Like what the hell are these?

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These are nothing but propaganda ads playing to the worst parts of religious bigots.

It seems like John McCain is in hissy fit mode because Obama wouldn't agree to those town halls. I believe McCain himself even said that his campaign could have been run differently if Obama agreed to the town halls. Of course this isn't fair, because John McCain was too scared to agree to doing the one on one, no moderator debates that Barack Obama either.

 

[44Thrilla]

Why do you need a daily or weekly CLASS IN COMPREHENSIVE SEX EDUCATION to teach a 5 year old that?

We're talking about kids who are years before puberty.

You know what, if you really believe that the bill was written to teach 5 year olds about HIV and the like, then I don't even know what to say to you. The bill obviously covers a lot of stuff, and you can try to make it say whatever you want it to. But the fact that "age and developmentally appropriate" is in there 3 times tells me that the curriculum is going to vary greatly from grades K-12.

 

[Denny Crane]

You know what, if you really believe that the bill was written to teach 5 year olds about HIV and the like, then I don't even know what to say to you. The bill obviously covers a lot of stuff, and you can try to make it say whatever you want it to. But the fact that "age and developmentally appropriate" is in there 3 times tells me that the curriculum is going to vary greatly from grades K-12.

Like I said, the ad on this point stands up to scrutiny.

The ad claims Obama was involved in this bill that teaches sex education to kids in grade K. It does, whatever "age and developmentally appropriate" is taken to mean.

 

[Денг Гордон]

We didn't have a comprehensive sexual education course in kindergarten, but we did have one in 1st grade...at a Catholic school. Although we did have the "strangers are bad, and that type of stuff" education in Kindergarten. In 1st grade, you began learning about pregnancy, and that a man/woman create a baby...no explanation how. Second grade you learn about some body changes you might go through in something called "puberty" as part of that education. Third grade, they introduce the concepts of penis and vagina into the discussion, and it's on from there. That was at a Catholic school too.

I don't see what the big deal is of having a sexual education plan that's comprehensive, and then scales upward like my example.

 

[Denny Crane]

ABC News:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/07/sex-ed-for-kind.html
Sex Ed for Kindergarteners 'Right Thing to Do,' Says Obama

July 18, 2007 1:13 PM
<!--A'Melody Lee
-->
ABC News' Teddy Davis and Lindsey Ellerson Report: Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., told Planned Parenthood Tuesday that sex education for kindergarteners, as long as it is "age-appropriate," is "the right thing to do."

"I remember Alan Keyes . . . I remember him using this in his campaign against me," Obama said in reference to the conservative firebrand who ran against him for the U.S. Senate in 2004. Sex education for kindergarteners had become an issue in his race against Keyes because of Obama’s work on the issue as chairman of the health committee in the Illinois state Senate.

"'Barack Obama supports teaching sex education to kindergarteners,'" said Obama mimicking Keyes' distinctive style of speech. "Which -- I didn’t know what to tell him (laughter)."

"But it’s the right thing to do," Obama continued, "to provide age-appropriate sex education, science-based sex education in schools."

Watch the video:
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3386492

Speaking to a young woman who asked a question about sex education, Obama said, "You, as a peer, can have enormous power over your age cohort but you’ve got to have some support from the schools. You certainly should not have to be fighting each and every instance by providing accurate information outside of the classroom because inside the classroom the only thing that can be talked about is abstinence."

 

[Dumpy]

Whether we agree or not on teaching comprehensive sex education to 5 year olds is appropriate, it is still a fact in the ad that stands up to scrutiny.

I probably would have drafted it differently, but statutory language is always the product of heated debate and messy compromise.

 

[Denny Crane]

I probably would have drafted it differently, but statutory language is always the product of heated debate and messy compromise.

I'm not going to argue the merits of teaching comprehensive sex education class to 5 year olds. The ad stands up to scrutiny.

 

[Dumpy]

Like I said, the ad on this point stands up to scrutiny.

The ad claims Obama was involved in this bill that teaches sex education to kids in grade K. It does, whatever "age and developmentally appropriate" is taken to mean.

again, I think the idea is that it is up to each community. What is appropriate in Chicago may be different from what is appropriate in Decatur. If the state legislature required certain teachings at a particular age state-wide, you'd be all over that--how dare the out-of-touch politicians legislate what each community should teach their kids? I believe all they are saying is that certain topics must be discussed to the extent that the local school board believes is appropriate based on age--just not based on content (such as refusing to discuss HIV to high-school age students).

 

[Denny Crane]

The ad stands up to scrutiny, and Obama definitely flat out says he supports teaching sex ed to 5 year olds.

ABC News:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/07/sex-ed-for-kind.html
Sex Ed for Kindergarteners 'Right Thing to Do,' Says Obama

July 18, 2007 1:13 PM
<!--A'Melody Lee
-->
ABC News' Teddy Davis and Lindsey Ellerson Report: Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., told Planned Parenthood Tuesday that sex education for kindergarteners, as long as it is "age-appropriate," is "the right thing to do."

"I remember Alan Keyes . . . I remember him using this in his campaign against me," Obama said in reference to the conservative firebrand who ran against him for the U.S. Senate in 2004. Sex education for kindergarteners had become an issue in his race against Keyes because of Obama’s work on the issue as chairman of the health committee in the Illinois state Senate.

"'Barack Obama supports teaching sex education to kindergarteners,'" said Obama mimicking Keyes' distinctive style of speech. "Which -- I didn’t know what to tell him (laughter)."

"But it’s the right thing to do," Obama continued, "to provide age-appropriate sex education, science-based sex education in schools."

Watch the video:
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3386492

Speaking to a young woman who asked a question about sex education, Obama said, "You, as a peer, can have enormous power over your age cohort but you’ve got to have some support from the schools. You certainly should not have to be fighting each and every instance by providing accurate information outside of the classroom because inside the classroom the only thing that can be talked about is abstinence."

 

[Denny Crane]

again, I think the idea is that it is up to each community. What is appropriate in Chicago may be different from what is appropriate in Decatur. If the state legislature required certain teachings at a particular age state-wide, you'd be all over that--how dare the out-of-touch politicians legislate what each community should teach their kids? I believe all they are saying is that certain topics must be discussed to the extent that the local school board believes is appropriate based on age--just not based on content (such as refusing to discuss HIV to high-school age students).

Why is this bill he supported even needed, according to your theory?

 

[44Thrilla]

I had monthly Sex ed. classes in 2nd grade and none at all in high school.

 

[Dumpy]

The ad stands up to scrutiny, and Obama definitely flat out says he supports teaching sex ed to 5 year olds.

I teach sex ed to my five-year-old, after a fashion. She asks why boys go to the bathroom faster than girls. I answer. She also wants to watch me pee. I explain why it isn't appropriate. She pretends that there is a baby in her tummy, and I explain that babies don't grow in the tummy, but in a different area next to the tummy.

Am I wrong to do so?

 

[Dumpy]

Why is this bill he supported even needed, according to your theory?

I assume that it was to ensure that all students receive the full gamut of information w/r/t sex education. Why are state legislatures around the country embroiled in how schools should teach the sciences?

 

[Denny Crane]

I teach sex ed to my five-year-old, after a fashion. She asks why boys go to the bathroom faster than girls. I answer. She also wants to watch me pee. I explain why it isn't appropriate. She pretends that there is a baby in her tummy, and I explain that babies don't grow in the tummy, but in a different area next to the tummy.

Am I wrong to do so?

My opinion is that teaching sex education kinds of things to 5 year olds is exactly in the realm of the home/parents.

Good for you!

 

[Denny Crane]

I assume that it was to ensure that all students receive the full gamut of information w/r/t sex education. Why are state legislatures around the country embroiled in how schools should teach the sciences?

It's your theory.

If it's up to the local school boards, then the legislature wouldn't be involved at all, right?

 

[Dumpy]

It's your theory.

If it's up to the local school boards, then the legislature wouldn't be involved at all, right?

The extent of involvement in each state would be up to the legislature. I can't judge them, or answer for them. All I can say is that if their constituents feel otherwise, there are mechanisms in place for them to be heard.

One piece of information that might be helpful is whether the same or similar legislation was sponsored by Planned Parenthood and the ACLU in other states as well. IF this legislation was enacted in, say, 20 otehr states in a virtually identical fashion, it would seem to me that this debate is silly. If, on the other hand, Illinois went far beyond what other states have done--including lberal states such as NJ and California--then greater scrutiny would probably be warranted. Why did they think it was necessary in Illinois when it wasn't necessary anywhere else? I don't know the answer to that, and I guess the best place to turn is to ask Planned Parenthood and the ACLU themselves.

 

[Denny Crane]

The extent of involvement in each state would be up to the legislature. I can't judge them, or answer for them. All I can say is that if their constituents feel otherwise, there are mechanisms in place for them to be heard.

One piece of information that might be helpful is whether the same or similar legislation was sponsored by Planned Parenthood and the ACLU in other states as well. IF this legislation was enacted in, say, 20 otehr states in a virtually identical fashion, it would seem to me that this debate is silly. If, on the other hand, Illinois went far beyond what other states have done--including lberal states such as NJ and California--then greater scrutiny would probably be warranted. Why did they think it was necessary in Illinois when it wasn't necessary anywhere else? I don't know the answer to that, and I guess the best place to turn is to ask Planned Parenthood and the ACLU themselves.

The debate isn't silly, no matter what other states do. The ad doesn't talk about what other states do.

The ACLU and Planned Parenthood are lobbyists on the left, you do agree, right? They do push this agenda in other states, so what?

http://www.freedomadvocates.org/art...ive_sex_education_to_kindergarten_2003112477/

 

[Dumpy]

The debate isn't silly, no matter what other states do. The ad doesn't talk about what other states do.

The ACLU and Planned Parenthood are lobbyists on the left, you do agree, right? They do push this agenda in other states, so what?

http://www.freedomadvocates.org/art...ive_sex_education_to_kindergarten_2003112477/

I would look at the experience of other states that have passed identical legislation to gain a better sense of what was intended for five and six year olds. If another state had actually passed such a bill, there would also be legislative history to peruse, where legislators would explain on the record their viewpoints on the purpose each provision in the statutory language.

 

[Denny Crane]

I would look at the experience of other states that have passed identical legislation to gain a better sense of what was intended for five and six year olds. If another state had actually passed such a bill, there would also be legislative history to peruse, where legislators would explain on the record their viewpoints on the purpose each provision in the statutory language.

We really should do this in a thread about education proper.

What California does, or any state for that matter, could be viewed (and I do) as politically motivated and has little to do with the welfare of the children. If the kids came first, they'd all be graduating from high school with the ability to read. At least they'll know how to have sex by the time they're 8.

 

[Dumpy]

We really should do this in a thread about education proper.

What California does, or any state for that matter, could be viewed (and I do) as politically motivated and has little to do with the welfare of the children. If the kids came first, they'd all be graduating from high school with the ability to read. At least they'll know how to have sex by the time they're 8.

yes, the public school system in some areas are a joke. take DC, for instance, where a recent study indicated that some ridiculous percentage of 8th graders were functionally illiterate. Of course, who establishes the budget for the district of columbia?

 

[Denny Crane]

yes, the public school system in some areas are a joke. take DC, for instance, where a recent study indicated that some ridiculous percentage of 8th graders were functionally illiterate. Of course, who establishes the budget for the district of columbia?

Spending per child in D.C. is the highest in the nation.

It's not about the money.

 

[Denny Crane]

Starting an education thread, so this one doesn't go too far OT.

 

[cpawfan]

5 year olds need to know what is and isn't appropriate in regards to their gentiles so that they know when they are being abused. Yes, ideally, it would be done at home by the parents, but there are an awful lot of bad parents out there.

 

[44Thrilla]

the ad on this point stands up to scrutiny.

If you say so. What about this?

In another part of the advertisement, Mr. McCain maintains that Mr. Obama’s sole achievement in education was the sex-education bill. In reality, Mr. Obama not only helped administer a $49 million education project in Chicago in the 1990s, but also sponsored or co-sponsored measures that increased the number of charter schools in Illinois, and expanded federal grants to summer school programs and to historically black colleges.

 

[Denny Crane]

If you say so. What about this?

The ad is misleading. They're trying to convey that Obama has little in terms of achievements due to his short public career and that he's been running for higher offices most of the time instead of doing the job he's been elected to.

"Only achievement" is over the top. "One of few achievements" is accurate.

 

[44Thrilla]

The ad is misleading. They're trying to convey that Obama has little in terms of achievements due to his short public career and that he's been running for higher offices most of the time instead of doing the job he's been elected to.

"Only achievement" is over the top. "One of few achievements" is accurate.

Well, they were, at the time. But ever since the Palin pick, that theme is pretty much non-existent.